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Hi. Haven't used this in a awhile. I have been informed by a sibling that my Dad may not be getting the best care; his own decisions a likely factor.


Where to start. First, about his condition.


He is completely bedbound. Completely. Can't even sit up. He can still talk but can still talk and move his head and eat.


He wears a diaper and a tube is in his stomach connected to his bladder to handle his poop and pee. While he can still eat, I don't think he's getting the best meals and food. He's too skinny for my liking. Either it's because of his condition, or he's picky eater and not eating the right kind of food.


Living environment. Currently, he is in a rehab hospital. Recently, he had to have one of his feet amputated due to an infection that would not clear up. And he's only prone to skin infection and bed sores.


Here's is where I am in dire need of help for his sake.
Despite all of my Dad's medical problems, for some reason, he's still in charge of his own care and money, and NONE of us kids have any say over either.


It is baffling. Because my Dad is in the worst state possible, and we kids have NO say on his care and finances whatsoever.


Why is that a problem?
Because he's trying to get discharged from the hospital and being transported by to his studio apartment that he has been paying for NINE MONTHS WHILE STILL IN THE HOSPITAL! WASTE OF MONEY!


Since none of us kids have any say over him whatsoever, I'm terrified he can and WOULD discharge himself despite his HORRIBLE medical conditions. Yeah, maybe the hospital wouldn't discharge him due severity of his conditions, but we kids still have no say just in case he COULD be discharge just by his word.


For the last FOUR YEARS we have tried to talk him into 24 hour care at a proper and equipped facility of some sort. We are always ignored and dismissed when we bring it up.


My dad will not listen to us. He is completely on care, yet we have no say whatsoever.


I baffles me is how is the law and the state on his side when it comes to his word and decisions, despite being completely being incapable to care for himself.


My Dad says he would get enough care by living in his apartment and having people come over and take care of him. That's just not possible due to his policy and his finances.


I need help. I don't want to gain power over him just to dump him in a home. I need power over him because he is not making the best decisions regarding care.


I'm not exaggerating and there's evidence we can provide. So I need advice and how to properly gain power of attorney and have legal say over my dad's care and finances (what little he has, he doesn't have much)


How do I do this?

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Guy2020,

I was just in your situation not long ago. Your dad and my dad would have been drinking buddies a few years ago. I wish I could tell you a quick and effective solution to your problem but I can’t.

I told my dad’s doctor the same thing. He wanted to live independently but couldn’t clean the poop off his bed. The house smelled worse than the worst cat litter box you can imagine. You could smell it from the parking lot. He only ate cookies and hot chocolate and doubled in weight. He spent more on TV senior scam products than his social security income.

What my dad’s doctor said was, “He has the right to make his own choices, even if those choices are bad.”

I had to bid my time. His house becomes a disgusting hole: Call the family over to smell it for themselves. They stop defending his “rights” after a sniff of his poop from the sidewalk. Let his credit get ruined: don’t pay for his junk from your paycheck. Keep his doctor up-to-date with ‘friendly’ observations in writing/emails: it’s a wonder what accountability does to change someone’s opinion.

If your old man and my old man are cut from the same cloth I wish you luck. Old men are stubborn, mean and a**holes. Let him crash and burn. Only then can you help him.

P.S. They always say “I’m fine.” Otherwise you’d send them to an old folks home to be killed off. Just saying.
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Guy2020: Perhaps you should speak to the social worker at the rehab facility. A man with an amputated foot cannot live in his apartment.
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Reply to Llamalover47
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This man is an idiotic fool and wants to be in control and you are all enabling him. Seek out at once an eldercare specialist who can advise you what to do and how. Someone must take over this situation as it is obvious he is not capable. Be tough and strong and do not give in to him. If all else fails, he making his bed so he will have to lie in the mess he makes - don't help if he does not cooperate or take over control for his well-being.
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Riley2166 Oct 4, 2021
And whatever you do, do NOT take him into your homes - it would be hell. Enlist the help of a social worker and tell them to step in and handle it - you cannot take this on.
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If Dad isn't willing and if he has his mind, It would cost way too much money for Lawyers Fees to try to take him to Court to ask for POA, especially since he has his mental faculties.

He could line up Home Health and have an Aide come to his apartment 3 times a week to help with cleaning him up like giving bed baths. He would also be assigned a Nurse to come visit once or twice a month to check his vital signs, ect.

If he is bed bound, he would have to have someone come over to feed him.

I Don't know but I'm sure he would need someone to change his bag from urine and poop at least once a day.

If he's been in the Military, they'll offer up to 30 hrs a week for free.

Depending where you live, You might could find some one to stop by an hour a couple times a day to give him food.

If he has a 2 bedroom apartment, you might could get a Live in.
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MargaretMcKen Oct 4, 2021
Bev, please read the first answer. Your comment “It would cost way too much money for Lawyers Fees to try to take him to Court to ask for POA” is just wrong.
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If your father is deemed "mentally competent" by his doctors, he understands his medical conditions, his finances, and consequences of his actions. Since this appears to be the case, he has the right to decide on how he wants to live - even if it puts him into a worse situation. It is very hard to watch people you care about make poor decisions that wreck their lives. However, you must respect his right to live his life his way.

While your father is mentally competent, now is the time to get his affairs in order. Get him to a lawyer who can draft power of attorney for medical decisions, power of attorney for financial decisions, his will, documents outlining end-of-life care (as in CPR or no CPR, artificial nutrition/hydration, ventilator or no ventilator...). Different people can be named on these documents. The lawyer can guide the process. Get these done now, since it appears the family will need to use them in the near future.
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Guy, I was glad to read all your posts, and to see that you are finding your way around the problem. This is just one more post to help you to see just how difficult it is to deal with headstrong adults, in spite of the living conditions that your sister reported.

Your father is probably capable of self-discharging from hospital (I did so myself once years ago), getting a taxi, and having it drop him off under a bridge to live homeless. Most governments don’t go around finding homeless people and putting them into care. Some of those people also have relatives who have given up trying for anything better.

Don’t blame yourself too much, and understand that you can’t actually make your father (or any of the institutions involved) do what you think should happen. It’s all very hard. Yours, Margaret

PS If your father is renting and the place is in bad shape, you might perhaps contact the landlord. If the landlord terminates the rental because the conditions are a breach of the terms, it might result in your father not having an easy ‘going home’ in mind.
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Hi to anyone who reads this. I now have an idea on what do to. Before, I had no idea what could do or can do. I understand POW is NOT the answers. I understand I have to contact the right people, services, and parties and report my concerns, my dad's condition, his unacceptable residence, and then go from there. I just hope he's monitored and looked after by the system, health, legal or otherwise. That's all I want. Thank you. I'm gonna try and see what can be done
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BarbBrooklyn Sep 30, 2021
Guy, please keep in touch and let us know how it's going!
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So, Guy, have you spoken to the Social Worker at the rehab hospital? They likely can't tell you what their plan is, but you can give them information about dadliving conditions.

You might suggest to dad that it might be wise for him to sign a HIPAA form, which would allow his doctor to share medical information with you and your siblings. Doesn't give you all any decision making power, it just allows you to find out what the plan is.

The most likely think is that the facility will ask for emergency guardianship so that your dad can be placed in a Long Term Care facility.

If for some reason dad discharges himself, you are going to call Adult Protective Services in his community and report him as a vulnerable elder.
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Guy2020 Sep 30, 2021
That sounds good. I'm well aware how selfish and maybe inhumane I was 2 years ago the last time I was on this website. I still have a temper but I like to think I matured just a bit. I don't want control for my convenience. All I want is to make sure my dad isn't left alone or receives third-rate care.

I admit, I'm lacking in some information and lacking in contact with the appropriate parties I SHOULD be in contact with. It's only thanks to my sibling that I'm aware how bad this condition has gone. I don't mean to bash my Dad as I've done 2 years ago, but he is a compulsive liar. For 2 years away from each other, he always said "I'm fine."
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Guy, back a couple of years ago you asked advice about how to get dad, who was "unpleasant " out of the apartment that you and mom shared; you were told at the time that dad was in charge of his own care and decisions. You said that made it easier.

The same still holds.

You can and should inform the discharge department of the rehab that dad lives alone and that there is no one to care for him.

Edit after Guy's new post; have any of you "kids" spoken to the Social Worker at the rehab to inform them of dad's living conditions or ask if they are going to pursue State guardianship for your dad?
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Guy2020 Sep 30, 2021
Hi. I'd like to add some things I have forgotten.



First. Me and my dad now live in different States. He lives in Nevada, and I, in California. Thought I'd share in case it's relevant explain why I can't care for him personally.



Second, according to my sister, who lives 40 minutes away from my dad, his apartment is in a unacceptable condition. According to her, it's infected with bugs, has ahorid smells, and badly stained carpets from past accidents. In short, I think any authority, health legal or otherwise would deem his residence unacceptable for him to live, in even by his own choice.



I understand none of us here are legal experts (to my knowledge), I was wondering if my dad chooses to live in an environment I like the one the just described, would he still be allowed to if be wanted?



There another thing I want to make clear. He's not just 'sick' or 'ill' as that over person has said, he is completely bedbound, cannot even control his bowels at all, has some TUBE surgically inserted somewhere in his abdomen to deal with his pee, it has a bowel movement at any time with no control whatsoever. He requires round the clock care 24/7. The last picture I saw him he looked too skinny to me but that could be just because of his medical conditions and his age. I'm worried that he's not eating enough for eating the right food of balanced diet and nutrition his body needs.



I understand POA has to be given with consent. I also understand the hospital may not discharge him with how serious in state is, but since he is indeed, completely aware of the surroundings and completely coherent, I am afraid he could be discharged if they can't hold him legally against his will. Should he be transported to his apartment, I don't see HOW he'll receive 24-hour care when his finances are very low, and his insurance is not the best.



Should he be allowed to go home just because he's mentally stable, I'm afraid he'll be left alone too often and/or waste away.



I understand POW is not the answer. Maybe guardianship is. Maybe. I don't know. Me and my siblings are not looking for control, we are concerned our Father bad decision making to his care when his condition is in the worst state you can imagine, short of anything terminal. I forgot he's prone to bed sores and infection and is missing a foot from infection.



If social services is aware all that, or any legal or health authority is, (God I hope they are aware) how serious his condition is, even if me and my siblings are unable to take any legal control over whatsoever, I do hope he is being monitored by the system so to speak. Do you know what I mean?



It's fine if he's in control, I just hope he's being monitored by legal or health authority that is able accordingly with both the regulations and his wishes.



But if he's not monitored. Say he is able to be transported while in his condition and is unable to get ENOUGH care from caretakers depending on insurance and finance, what can I do?



Despite his body being as it is, can I really do nothing?


This is beyond MS I'd say. Since the last time I was here two years, he's gotten worst.
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"Despite all of my Dad's medical problems, for some reason, he's still in charge of his own care and money..."

For some reason? Because being ill does not deprive anyone of his right to make his own choices about his own life.

You have no right to any legal say in your father's decisions. Nor has he any in yours. Why should it be different? He has MS. That doesn't make him unable to know his own mind.

Draw the proper boundaries between his life and your life, and offer him whatever kind of support you are comfortable with giving (which can be right down to "none at all" without anyone having the right to give you a hard time about it). You don't have any responsibilities towards a competent adult making his own choices. If the choices he makes seem impractical to you that still isn't your problem. It is up to your father and his health and social care team to figure it out.

Incidentally, if necessary, remind your mother of the same and do NOT take him in to be cared for.
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Reply to Countrymouse
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Guy, if your father is deemed ‘mentally competent’, then he is able to make his own decisions even if they are obviously bad. So here are a few options for your family to consider:

1) Tell the hospital that it’s an unsafe discharge. Make it quite clear that no-one in the family is stepping up to “come over and take care of him”. You can’t and won’t do it, quite irrespective of whether his policy and finances make it possible.

2) You can’t ‘gain a POA’ against his will - he has to give it to you, and sign it himself.

3) You can apply for guardianship. You will need a lawyer, time and money to go through getting it, but it’s possible.

4) If the hospital can’t discharge him because it's an unsafe discharge and you are adamant that you are not going to provide support, they can arrange for the state to get guardianship and force the choices. It won’t cost you, but the family will no longer have any say in what happens.

5) You can accept that he is going home, let it happen, and call APS to report him as at risk. Don’t try to organise the “people to come over and take care of him”, it’s up to him. That may go straight back to the state guardianship option. However it might mean a) he gets home and realises almost immediately that he can’t cope, and/or b) he accepts what he is told by APS. Many elders will listen to ‘officials’ when they won’t take any notice of family members.

Many people on the site are in the position of having to wait for a crisis because strong minded elders won’t accept common sense. They are usually expecting a fall and broken bones. It’s a hard thing to back off and not do all you can, but sometimes it really is the only option.

Sympathy and best wishes to all your family. Yours, Margaret
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Guy2020 Sep 30, 2021
Hi. I'd like to add some things I have forgotten.

First. Me and my dad now live in different States. He lives in Nevada, and I, in California. Thought I'd share in case it's relevant explain why I can't care for him personally.

Second, according to my sister, who lives 40 minutes away from my dad, his apartment is in a unacceptable condition. According to her, it's infected with bugs, has ahorid smells, and badly stained carpets from past accidents. In short, I think any authority, health legal or otherwise would deem his residence unacceptable for him to live, in even by his own choice.

I understand none of us here are legal experts (to my knowledge), I was wondering if my dad chooses to live in an environment I like the one the just described, would he still be allowed to if be wanted?

There another thing I want to make clear. He's not just 'sick' or 'ill' as that over person has said, he is completely bedbound, cannot even control his bowels at all, has some TUBE surgically inserted somewhere in his abdomen to deal with his pee, it has a bowel movement at any time with no control whatsoever. He requires round the clock care 24/7. The last picture I saw him he looked too skinny to me but that could be just because of his medical conditions and his age. I'm worried that he's not eating enough for eating the right food of balanced diet and nutrition his body needs.

I understand POA has to be given with consent. I also understand the hospital may not discharge him with how serious in state is, but since he is indeed, completely aware of the surroundings and completely coherent, I am afraid he could be discharged if they can't hold him legally against his will. Should he be transported to his apartment, I don't see HOW he'll receive 24-hour care when his finances are very low, and his insurance is not the best.

Should he be allowed to go home just because he's mentally stable, I'm afraid he'll be left alone too often and/or waste away.

I understand POW is not the answer. Maybe guardianship is. Maybe. I don't know. Me and my siblings are not looking for control, we are concerned our Father bad decision making to his care when his condition is in the worst state you can imagine, short of anything terminal. I forgot he's prone to bed sores and infection and is missing a foot from infection.

If social services is aware all that, or any legal or health authority is, (God I hope they are aware) how serious his condition is, even if me and my siblings are unable to take any legal control over whatsoever, I do hope he is being monitored by the system so to speak. Do you know what I mean?

It's fine if he's in control, I just hope he's being monitored by legal or health authority that is able accordingly with both the regulations and his wishes.

But if he's not monitored. Say he is able to be transported while in his condition and is unable to get ENOUGH care from caretakers depending on insurance and finance, what can I do?

Despite his body being as it is, can I really do nothing?

I am sorry if my previous post was choppy and erratic, but I'm calmer now.
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