Is it a crime to take funds for personal use from parents with Alzheimer when you have POA?

If he has POA over their accounts, legally, at least I think so, he can pretty much do whatever he wants with those funds. I could be wrong though.

My mom put my oldest son on her bank accounts with her. He can go in there anytime he pleases and spend whatever he wants to. The account is in BOTH their names. My son can, and does, spend what he likes. I think it's the same with a POA, but I could be wrong. If he has POA, I think he can indeed take whatever funds he pleases... Correct me if I'm wrong, someone... .

nope SA is right. POA has the spending power.Hopefully for good not evil lol

POA (Power of Attorney) is only for when the people are alive, once they have died the POA does not have legal access to their bank accounts without the permission of the executor.
I am my mother's POA which gives me the legal right to handle her money and pay her bills, but I do NOT have the legal right to take money out of her account and spend it on ME, that is called stealing! I can take money out of her account for her needs, no one else's.

My mothers attorney told us the person who is primary on a POA or DPOA is to use the money for the care and needs of the parent not for your own needs or care unless your parent has stipulated in the documentation that you can received reimbursement for your time. Yes the POA can wrongly withdraw money for their own use if their name is on the accounts. My sister sends me copies of the financial statements so I can see where the money is going. I did not ask her to do that. Hopefully the person handling their parents finances, does it for the best interest of their parent without basically embezzling money for their self. My thoughts are that if your brother withdrew large amounts of money for himself, it is illegal.

We now have guardianship of my sister in law. Before that her son had poa and was on her checking account. He spent over 50,000 dollars on himself, even writing a check to his wife for over $9,000. We tried to get the money back but lawyer said since he was on the checking account, he did nothing legally wrong.Be careful. What is legally right may be morally wrong

If he was on the account before they passed, it's basically his account. He can legally (not morally) close the account and spend every cent as if it was his own. With his name on the account it's not even part of the estate anymore.

Bfox is right. Morals is what it comes down to. In most cases the POA and the executor is the same person.

I believe that it depends on how the POA was written and what authority it gives. Years ago when my husband had been activated with the Navy, I had a POA to sign any check in his name. It was written to give me the ability to deposit his checks of course and it was written in very strict guidelines, what bank it could be used in etc. We had only been married a short time and an ex of his had taken everything in the past so, for his comfort, we had it written correctly to be very specific. Unfortunately, it took more than 10 minutes to draft, this was before computers were in every office. If our attorney had not been so good at his job and a caring individual, he would have given us just a POA with all kinds of ability! I shudder to think how many of those are out there! A POA can be and SHOULD BE very specific about authority and purpose! Check it out.

I am reminded - everything done in secret will be brought to the light. '

My sister and her husband blew through my Mom's savings without flinching.. they burned through her money on her care because they didn't want to be inconvenienced. I look at it this way: their selfishness will be discovered and they will reap what they sow.

I so agree, Perseverance! My brother and his wife did the same thing. Over 50,000 on my parents credit cards and NOT for the care of my parents! My Mama passed last Wednesday, it's been really hard for me. My brothers told me I would have to pay $3,000 to help bury my Mom and I refused. When my husband and I left there was over $20,000 in my parents account. (about 2 yrs ago) Also my parents had planned and paid for their funerals and they had life insurance. He threatened to call the cops and throw us out of my parent's house, since it was his "domain" (his word) now. I just wanted to grieve my Mom and help my Daddy, it still feels like a bad dream and I am hoping to wake up. I miss my sweet Mama so much.

So, I KNOW it is immoral and it should be illegal, good luck LakeAnna and God Bless. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

I am reading these comments from siblings who are angry because their sibling who was the caregiver spent their parent's money. Well with all due respect .. where were you when the time came that your parent's needed care? One of you said that you left with your husband 2 years ago .. well how convenient to leave just when your parent's required care. If there is only one sibling doing all the caregiving as well as being POA then I don't think the other siblings have any right to question where the parent's money went .. as long as the parents were given proper care and being well taken care of etc. I find it so annoying that the siblings who move away and continue to have the freedom to live their lives, all of a sudden feel they should have "a say" when the parent dies about "where is all the money?" well I say " when your parent was alive why weren't you participating in the caregiving? Also, if it wasn't your sibling that was doing the caregiving and banking etc., how much do you think it would have cost to pay someone else to do all that work? That's what you have to think about. I have been live-in-caregiver for my mother for a year now, I pay myself a monthly salary and everybody in the family is aware that I do, I tell them if they have a problem with the money I pay myself than they are more than welcome to come and take over the job as live in caregiver and I will go back to living my normal life!

Contact the attorney who wrote the POA. They should be able to guide you on this without charge. If you have a copy, you could go to your attorney or a elder law attorney for guidance.

If the funds were withdrawn before last parents death and can be proven to be used for personal funds vs caretaking of parent or their estate, then without provisions written; I'm certain this is not legal.

I agree with you, don't sign off on probate or other until all the financials have been legally reconciled. At the very least, those funds should be subtracted from his share of remaining estate.

That said, if he provided the primary care and was bore most of the responsibility for their care, transport, meds, keeping the property up, etc...then you should consider compensation to your brother.

Frankly, I'm keeping track of every expense, time, visit travel expenses, etc. and have informed my sib of this...further that in the end, I expect this to be subtracted from his share of estate since he has relinquished all care to me. He so far is in agreement. I have all the receipts for meals, hotels, etc.

Well Ms macada, you obviously don't have all the info to make these comments about me. Here are the facts: My bro & his wife lost their home (over a $3000 tax bill) and had no where else to go, so it was their choice to come for a while, I had been taking care of both my parents for 10 yrs, so it is not like I just popped in and popped out, and just left them. I was there through surgeries, falls, hospitalization, drs appt, cooking, cleaning, financing and anything else they needed. His wife hated my Mother and said terrible things about her. They activated cc in my parents names and maxed them out. It is fairly easy to spend other people's money. I never got paid or wanted to be paid. And furthermore, I am not sure they have been properly taken care of. So before you rant and rave about your "normal life", don't judge if you don't know the whole story.

Also, genessa, let's not forget the fact that you must have agreed to let them come, and handed over the reins, in spite of the evil SIL, didn't you? If they 'chose' to come, wasn't it up to you to 'choose' to let them? If that's the case, why are you complaining now? If you questioned their integrity, why did you allow them to take over? You could have told them no, and bet they would have found somewhere to live. If you questioned their care giving while they were there, why didn't you jump back in and take over again yourself?

genessa .. I commented on the information that had been provided. If you want people to know the whole story before they comment.. then tell it.. and furthermore if I want to "rant and rave" I will, that's what this forum is for!

@ LakeAnna2 It was explained to me by mother's lawyer that her funds are for her benefit only, and that as POA I am acting as her agent in her interests, when she is not able to conduct her own business. I believe the agent receive may receive compensation for their services if it is written into the POA document.

quote from wiki.answers

A POA is an attorney-in fact" - a term used on some states

" A POA creates a position of trust where the principal grants power to an agent to sign on her behalf when she is unable or unavailable, or simply for purposes of convenience." and ".Any attorney-in-fact who uses their power to access the principal's funds for their own personal use should be sued and reported to the local district attorney for criminal prosecution. Courts abhor an attorney-in-fact, or any fiduciary, who uses their power to steal from the principal. Self-dealing by an attorney-in-fact is against the law in every state.
An attorney-in-fact who uses their power to convert any property to their own use is committing a criminal offense. That would include such things as transferring real estate or personal property such as motor vehicles or timeshare interests to their own name".

It appears it is a criminal offense.

I would think your best recourse would be to consult a lawyer, perhaps particularly a lawyer expert in elder affairs. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

No standingalone, I did NOT have a choice. And macada you are right, this forum is for ranting and raving and hooping and hollering if you need to. Mother died last week and I am just angry over things that happened. Maybe some of it was my fault, I should have done more. Now I have to live with it. It's a long, sad story and doesn't really change anything, my Mother is gone and I miss her very much.

genessa, I'm very, very sorry about your mom. I'm sorry that you're in pain and grieving, and having to deal with 'what if's' as well. If you know you did the best you could, that's got to be comfort enough...for all of us, really. We probably all wish we would have done this or that differently... Your mom died knowing she was loved by her children, and that they were around. Would that we all have that someday... Don't let what you can't change eat you alive. I wish you all the best in the world...

People, PLEASE play nice!

I think the person asking the question deserves the benefit of the doubt. If everyone provided ALL the details in every post, we wouldn't have time to read them. If you suspect the questioner is "in error," ask a polite question to find out more.

I think the person asking the question is usually in pain or distress about a difficult situation. Kindness is in order.

If the question hits one of your hot buttons, please tell your story without assuming that the other party is a no good selfish do nothing. We have learned that there are good parents, OK parents and monster parents. There are saintly siblings, helpful siblings, unhelpful siblings, and monster siblings. Keep an open mind.

We all have such hard lives. Please, can we be kind to one another even if they don't seem to deserve it? I love you guys!

I have POA for my mother and it gives me the right to withdraw funds to pay for any personal expenses I incur on her behalf. For example, I drive her to all of her appointments with doctors and do all her banking, grocery shopping, house keeping, laundry, food preparation, etc. I keep track of the gasoline I use on her behalf and pay for it from her checking account. I am 66 years old myself and am living on social security and have a part-time job. I frequently have to take time off from my job to care for her. I don't get paid when I don't work, so I keep track of hours I miss on her behalf and reimburse myself from her checking account. It would be a financial hardship for me to care for my mother, if I could not be reimbursed for expenses like this. My mother has a substantial estate and can well afford to reimburse me. Before she became incapacitated, she stipulated this in the POA. And one more thought occurs to me. I have been caring for my mother, 24 hours a day, for 18 months and I did the same for my father before he passed away. My brother lives far away and does nothing to assist me. However, he is entitled to half of my mother's estate when she's gone. He does not begrudge me the funds I withdraw from her bank account to defray the expenses I incur now on her behalf. I have also been named executor of her estate in her will, and it also stipulates that I should be reimbursed for expenses I incur in settling her estate.

There is a difference between spending money for care instead of providing the care yourself, which may or may not be "selfish," (deciding to pay for care and spend down to become Mediciad eligible is not always the wrong way to go, for a variety of reasons) versus taking the money for personal use instead, which should not be tolerated under a properly written POA that spells out the POAs obligations, BUT in general is unfortunately legal if names are on the credit cards and accounts.

A "hot button" issue on here is when it looks or even smells like one family member who is not actively providing care sits in judgement of the ones who are doing so, failing to recognize what is really going on or how hard or impossible personal caregiving has become, and criticizing decisions that are made, from afar. HardWorking's family appears to be doing things right from that point of view, but sometimes you hear of a sibling who considers the caregiver to be stealing or freeloading in that situation. And, sometimes you hear of a sibling who realy IS stealing and freeloading and maybe even failing to actually provide care. And emjo is right about what a POA should be doing. Every situation is a little different and words on a screen may tell only part of a story.

My gosh - here is yet another situation I see where the original poster has never commented or updated anything that's happened in relation to their question. And yet, AC members are getting into little battles with each other over it. I guess I'm a little sensitive to those circumstances and it's a little frustrating to me to see it here. My mom was so angry with my sibling for dragging her to court in a competency dispute, yet sibling continued waltzing in doing obnoxious things, leaving my mother mad in her wake and leave me holding the bag, dealing with my moms anger for hours to come. I came to call my sibling's method of behavior "Hit & Run", similar to the damage left behind when a driver flees the scene of an accident they caused.

Of course we all realize that LakeAnna initially came here for answers and some support. The problem is she is once removed from the problem she is asking about, and we are once removed from her. Having worked in banking, it's important to know first hand what the status of the accounts in question were, before trying to answer. But Anna didn't say and no one asked, everyone just started answering based on his or her own experience, which is kind of what we do here. And that's generally a good thing, but in this case it didn't help.

When folks talk of a POA, they are usually referring to financial matters. POAs on accounts at banks are different. It's possible that bro took folks into bank when they appeared competent and had the account put in joint tenancy. If the folks agreed to that and the rest of the family didn't challenge it at the time, those funds become co-owned and it's no longer about spending the money just for the folks. What if, unbeknownst to Anna, bro & SIL sought their own legal advice and had a personal service contract drawn up? THAT would allow them to be paid for HELPING the folks. And, further, if the account was set up as a POA/POD (pay on death), even though a general power of attorney expires at death, the money in this particular type of account goes to the POA, similar to a beneficiary, and is now owned by the former POA. Just too many unknown variables in this situation.

LakeAnna neither gave this information (probably either doesn't know or doesn't know any better) nor came back and clarified anything even as our members we're commenting with the best of intentions about it. I am coming to not appreciate posters who do this: don't come back, don't update, don't answer questions, leaving our numbers to snipe amongst themselves. HIT AND RUN!

CarolLynn -- I know what you mean about getting frustrated with the original posters not coming back to answer questions. I'm not convinced they have left. I do wonder on some of these threads if they read all our comments and just like to see members bicker back and forth and they sit back and wait, watch and read. :-)

IMO it's not necessary for poster to post an update for us or let us know which answer they took...this is a forum for support and casting a wide net for a number opinions, advice, and personal experience.

It is not a soap opera for us to find out the latest goings on nor a competition for who hit the right answer.

I don't think any poster is just sitting back enjoying the "bickering and in fighting like a bunch of jealous siblings" -- who has time for that when you are in the middle of your own caregiving dilemma?

It is nice when we can get the outcome of a situation, whenever that update might come...if just so others of us can benefit from that persons experience and what worked or didn't work.

Lets not judge or cast stones folks, just love and support one another please, lest we drive each other away.

The answer can be found by reviewing the powers granted by the principal to the attorney in fact. Some durable powers of attorney provide specific powers while others provide very general, broad powers. FYI - Only durable powers of attorney are valid following a disability. Lastly a power of attorney is a lifetime document. In other words it is no longer valid after the principal dies. Bottom line the attorney in fact may have both criminal and civil liability for misappropriating funds under a power of attorney.

This has happened with one family member who lived in another state - and the person who took the money was not even the POA person.
It's very simple - if the money was taken when they were alive and used for their benefit, it is not a crime.
If the money was taken after their death and not used for the funeral - but for personal use - then that money was stolen from their estate and the person should be giving the chance to repay, or reported to police.

Lesson learned have the POA written with at least 2 POA's and listed as AND so 2 signatures are needed to withdraw funds.

Problem with 2 POA is that if they don't agree on the same thing it can be a major problem. Caregiver POA thinks parent needs this. Far away POA does not. CG POA would like to hire a part time caregiver so she can get respite, FAPOA

FA POA doesn't agree. Having 2 POA signatures can become a nightmare for the CG POA.

I hate to break anyone's bubble, but it is illegal to use any of her money for yourself. That money is for your mother"s expenses ONLY. I learned that from Adult Protective Services and my attorney. You can be arrested & charged with elder abuse.