Relationships with abusive parents and the full circle. How to cope?

Hi amicable,

Boundaries require concrete consequences not as instruments of change or punishment, but means of self-protection. Forgiveness to me does not mean giving them a clean slate to abuse you once again. One consequence might be significantly reduced contact. Some have found it necessary to reach a point of no contact.

When she goes into one of her irrational rages, you can calmly reply that you are leaving until she is able to talk calmly. Or if this happens on the phone, tell her that you must end the conversation for the same reason. Yes, she is and will be upset, but she needs to learn to calm herself. Not setting boundaries and following through with concrete consequences only serves to enable and embolden them.

It sounds to me like she has some personality disorder. It's not as important to know the exact diagnosis as to realize that you did not make her that way. You can't control her personality. And despite all hope which I realize often lives eternal, you will not be able to change them. The only person that you can change is yourself. You can chose to step out of the mire and put yourself on a healthier path regardless of what she chooses to do. She's not going to stop her dance of fear, obligation and guilt. However, you don't have to dance this emotional black mail dance with her. She's groomed you for this dance, but you can get out.

It does not sound like she is the type of person from whom we would expect change via various motivations and in particular, sacrificial love.

Like some abused spouses who return in hopes that if they just love their spouse more, then they want get abused again. This is the same dynamic, but instead of the abuser being a spouse, it is a parent.

This is very hard to deal with because parents and particularly mothers are not supposed to be this way.

Sometimes there is a religious aspect to all of this that misuses a healthy biblical principle and statement in a very toxic manner which is an example of when religion gets sick because the person is sick and not because of faith itself.

None of this is easy as you've read me say this often today and yesterday. The F.O.G.y parent will get mad as hell, attempt to make you feel that you are the problem as their means to get you back in line. Remember, they can't succeed if you don't offer a codependent response back to them. Actually you have more power than they do because you can quit the dance.

Stop dancing her dance and dance your own. Have a great anniversary trip!

My sympathy. CMagnum is right ( hi cmagnum!).

You wrote:

I need something I can keep in my when she's railing about all the arguing going on at home

The answer is: have an escape route!!! Do not be in the home!!!

This is the strategy that a lot of recovering alcoholics use to protect themselves. They just remove them selves from people, places, and things. Conversely, you must do the same.

My mom is not an alcoholic but my dad was and I have used this strategy for many years: keep visits frequent and very short, an hour or 90 minutes. Done and done. Get out of there. Even now, my mom is in AL and she is very nice but her behaviors (incessant interrogation) wear me out. So, lots of really short visits.

You can do this. Plan the day and the visits. Have a life. Go get'em!

Al-anon for you. If the parent has been actively treating the alcoholism with AA or another program, there shouldn't be this manipulation. If the person just stopped drinking but isn't treating the underlying problem, the disease isn't treated. Either way, I'd suggest that you attend Al-anon. Stay on the counselor's list, too, but Al-anon will help you set boundaries and detach so that you don't let yourself fall for the manipulation.

Take care of yourself first!
Carol

I really like the answers above. Great advice. I might suggest also the book Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. Or another daily meditation book by her, The Language of Letting Go. Great insights on how to draw our boundaries and take care of ourselves.

Melody Beattie's books have helped millions - for a reason. As mentioned, great insights into the workings of handling difficult relationships.

Thank you for posting, amicable - so many of us are coping with maintaining our personal boundaries in addition to the rigors of caregiving. As fate would have it, I am the only relative available to provide are for my mom (my brother and his wife have moved to Arizona, and never offer help of any kind.)
During my adolescent years, I suffered with depression and an eating disorder (which continued through my young adulthood).
As I spend so much time caring for mom now, I'm beginning to realize a lot of my early emotional struggles stemmed from her. Long story short, I've managed to overcome whatever bad feelings and behaviors of my early years, through counselling and just plain hard knocks.
What works for me is to be able to bring down a mental curtain between us if I feel manipulated or used. I mentally back away, maybe walk out of the room. Of course, she doesn't realize what I'm doing, and she interprets it as my being difficult. But I know in my mind - I'm nurturing myself when faced with toxicity.
I've tried talking with her, and before long, we're talking in circles. When she feels confronted, she brings out her arsenal of defense to distract from the issue. It's scary to see her do this, my own mother. The fact that I am her daughter seems to be meaningless to her. She has always been this way, so it's not that this is a new behavior due to being elderly.
I've learned to become a juggler of sorts- throwing multiple balls of responsibility in the air (my sanity being one of them) - and not letting any one of them drop. I've worked too hard to become an emotionally healthy human being to let my elderly mother (who has lived her life her way) bring me down.

Just returned from a visit with my abusive, crazy, manipulative, lying elderly mother, so I really empathize! The advice here about preserving your boundaries is good, and don't rule out cutting off contact completely. Only when I was permanently away from the toxicity (for 19 years) and in consistent therapy was I able to reconstruct a semblance of normal living. Imagine this: if you were dead, that elderly manipulator would have to deal with life, arranging care, getting into AL, on her own. She would manage, or social services would come in and make her manage. There is no need for you to plunge yourself back into the poison pool. In a very bad moment of abusive madness last week, I calmly (on the outside--I was upset on the inside) got up to remove myself from the poison, did not engage or respond to her manipulative attack, and said "I know you'll make good decisions about what you want to do." And left the room. In my case, as I imagine in a lot of such cases, no good can come of my being around, because she won't let me help, struggles against any suggestion or improvement I try to make, lies to me and about me to anyone who will listen, lies about what options are available to as to get more attention, and generally poisons everything in reach. My first duty is to make my own life constructive, healthy, good. Her presence makes that impossible. I got all the info about a really nice AL place that she can afford (nicer than my own apt, certainly), gave it to her, went for a visit with her, introduced her to the management, and then left town. ("This place is safer and nicer than your own home; I've done what I can do for you. Good luck." and left. I might or might not return for the funeral, but I feel real closure and liberation.)

I think some needs to write a new version of Paul Simon's "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" with the title "50 Ways to Leave Your Abusive Mother" basically "get yourself free" via setting a boundary! for a boundary is the key that will set you free.!

Why do people who had/have abusive parents get involved if they need caregiving? I don't understand this.

I had wonderful parents, couldn't have asked for better. But caregiving is still very hard on the caregiver.

Sorry, but why do people who grew up with physical, mental, and emotional abuse do this? I believe that if your parents need help when they're elderly, you help them, to not is wrong.

The exception being if they were abusive. Than you have no obligation to get involved.

I think because of a idealistic dream that the parent will change if they just sacrifice enough. Many were emotionally groomed for this and thus are emotionally enmeshed. Such childhood abuse is hard to get free from.

So on point, Irishspirit! It's not railing and yelling, because that would be so overtly abusive that obviously any sane person would walk away from that. It's the hints and allegations that I'm being unkind when I point out the way she changes everything from a positive to a negative. She says she wants me to spend time with her, but I pull away because I'll mention something nice about whatever it is we're doing or something I saw on the net...anything at all that's a happy thought, and she will immediately poison it by relating it to some miserable life experience that she can't let go of. I worked way too hard to pull myself out of the suicidal hole (sometimes I think I actually learned how to be depressed because of her actions...I thought that was the normal way to be) and I am NOT going to let her drag me back in. I had the most awesome therapist for 3 years who finally drilled it into my head that there IS in fact sunshine on the other side of that feeling and it won't last forever. Sometimes I don't know if I'm bipolar or just reacting to dealing with the negatives and then exceedingly happy when I'm away from it! I really hate taking antidepressants...they wreak havoc on my tummy. All of you have been such wonderful supporters that when I read your outpouring of friendship, I know I'm not alone and I don't feel like I really need them. I can't thank you enough because there have been times during the last year that you have literally saved my life! Hugs to all of you.

Carol, thank you for your answer, but I actually did go to a short time to adult children of alcoholics group. I had to withdraw from the group because the stories I was hearing were even worse than my own and I was having a hard time protecting myself from other people's misery. This site has actually been my saving grace!

I think that growing up with an abusive/neglectful parent is the "norm" for us. too often it takes many, many years to "see" the abuse as such. My own mother was/is probably bipolar, but never dxed as such. She picked and chose her "favorites" from amongst her 6 kids. I was never the favorite, nor even close. I look back (with the aid of therapy) and realize how many ways and how many times she failed me, completely, in such basic ways as just providing me with health care and decent, appropriate clothing. She paid for college for the boys--not the girls. She fawned over my eldest brother to the point it was embarrassing. He was exempt from all household chores because he was a "genius". She often used the threat of suicide to keep us in line. Told us often how her dr said she'd die from the stress of raising us before she was 50. (She's now 85, soooo) Some of us were a lot more sensitive to this mood dynamic than others. 4 of the 6 of us have been in therapy and/or on antidepressants most of our adult lives.
Can I blame my mother for all this? Yes and no. I now acknowledge that she is sick...but I still suffer from the aftereffects of her words and actions. I do distance myself from her as much as I feel I can. I tried to be the most "opposite parent" I could be--and I did the best I could, but often felt hobbled by the voice in my head telling me I was a mess and not able to do anything well.
Mother has never apologized for anything, ever. I don't expect it, although it would be nice.
Why do we stay in these relationships? Guilt, probably, duty, I don't know. My mother lives with my brother. If were up to me, entirely, she'd be in an AL facility. And I would see her once a month. Not because I am mean, but because I simply have to self protect.

The guilt is one of their three major tools to groom us with. It's actually a form of child abuse. Other child abusers groom their victims also.

Congrats on the seeking to be a totally different parent. That is how the chain is broken.

I feel sorry for those who don't see it and for those hurt as collateral damage in the wake of the person who does not see their bondage and get professional help to get out. Some get therapy but quit because the work is too hard or too fearful.

Parental ptsd,

Good job! I did something similar. I left for a month and then resumed visits. Is a great idea.

All the best!!!!!!!!!!

Fool me on once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. When you begin missing someone like this, remind yourself that what you 'miss' is something you fantasize about but never actually had. It's all smoke and mirrors.

I am a recovering alcoholic with 18 years of continuous sobriety. I only say this because I know a great deal about manipulation. In sobriety I have learned that many of my emotional problems stemmed from my relationship with my mother. She was not an alcoholic but had all the personality traits that we abuse people with. Self-centered, manipulative, sometimes cold hearted, etc.
Because I have been working a program of recovery I learned how to better set my boundaries and take care of myself. At the end of our relationship we had mended fences and Mom had learned respect for me all because I stopped taking her crap and I stopped allowing her to make me feel bad about me. Here's what I learned: when I stopped allowing it, she slowed down doing it and eventually stopped doing it. Here is an example. I am a heavy woman. My Mom was very passive/aggressive. She gave back handed compliments--"That is such a pretty blouse" pause while I say thank you then picks up with "It's a shame you had to buy it in such a large size". ZZaaPP! When I finally told her it hurt my feelings she told me I was too sensitive and that she was just joking (which was always her fall back, the "joking", when she was called on something). I told her it wasn't funny...it was hurtful. I only had to do that a couple of times 'til she stopped. Then there was the time, after my Dad had passed, that she asked me to come over and hang a couple of pictures for her over the weekend. I had told her I would run over on Saturday. When Saturday came I was in the middle of something and didn't want to stop to run hang pictures. When I called to tell her I would come on Sunday instead she replied (angry & pissed)..."Well never mind. If you can't come today just don't come at all!" In the passed I would have swirled around that, felt guilty and finally dropped what I was doing for myself to go hang her precious pictures. But this time I simply replied, without anger or any emotion "Ok. If you change your mind let me know" and with that I hung up the phone. It wasn't 30 minutes until she called me back and asked me if I would come Sunday as I had said. My point to all this is that it is up to us to not tolerate, accept, allow behavior which is no longer acceptable. It took AA and a therapist to get me there. For now, try not to swirl with her. Step back and set your boundary. And I agree with above, Al Anon doesn't cost a penny and will definitely help you learn to take care of yourself. Check out the website. Good stuff. Good luck to you!

Thanks everyone for your input, and to irishboy in particular I have to give this answer - unless you have been raised by an emotionally toxic mother, you will not understand the confusion and conflict.
Enough said.

In my situation I can relate to forgiving a parent and finding myself being thrown back into manipulation and expectation to accept them but no respect or understanding in return. I am not having much success with being effective or a positive influenance to my parent. I limit my time, my activities and speak only on light topics. So protect yourself first and formost. It sounds like you are trying not to go too far down again without figuring out some answers. You are already on the right path. You may want to take an extended break to get perspective. Remember you are not alone. Stay strong!

What if abusive mother infects the kids as part of her plan? She had my 33-year-old daughter sell her house. The sale was for $225,000. Mom has a monthly income of $4100 for the rest of her life. She is 87. I found the buyer several years ago and gave my daughter the contact info. My daughter found selling the house to be very traumatic and wanted to be paid $7,000 for doing it. Mom set her up with Power of Attorney for her new savings account. We have had her in various ALs for the past year and generously added to her monthly income so she could afford more and move three times with the understanding that we would be paid back. I asked my daughter for $7,000 of the $25,000 we spent. She said I had to give her receipts. So, I spent a day going through bank statements. I had to drive across town and pick up
the check. Then the final move came. Even though I had reminded her of the expenses ahead of time, there was no money to pay for it. I had to do it. Shes a writer and found out she was being sued so we were not supposed to bother her. My daughter shorted what she was supposed to pay her sister for packing up the house and handling the move. They have always been very close. She wouldn't pay me for the storage unit or for the companion charges we had for he month of June, saying she didn't like her (the companion) and she could just wait. She also wondered why my moms regular account wasn't sufficient to pay for everything. My daughter doesn't want the money from the house. This is not like her. She thinks she is protecting her granny from us spending all of the money, but I was scrambling on moving day to pay everything out of my own pocket. My husband and I are determined that we will stop helping out my mother, but my relationship with my daughter is definitely damaged. My mom keeps telling me to pay this or that or to take some extra money for myself. I haven't told her yet about the problem with my daughter.She did something similar with my middle brother when my dad died, setting him up with all of this power that actually left him having to handle everything alone. My daughter's answer to me is that I have issues and I need therapy. I'm not rich. I told her several times we would have to be paid back. I've paid for supplies,for medical costs, for her companion, for prescriptions.I don't know how to handle this situation,but I really don't want to see my mother. But she calls and calls me.

Lots of good advice that I can also use. I have family that does not know about the abuse. And I have heard "she did the best she could", too many times! She had a good comeback, "Why would you ask such a personal question?" This can, of course, be modified to suit the situation. I understand how forgiveness gives some people (in their mind's eye) license to walk all over you, yet again. Boundaries are hard with a parent. You have a good support network here. I wish I had better words of encouragement to share. Take care of You. You are an important person.

amicable: Don't let yourself be abused! Just remind them EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY GO DOWN THAT ABUSIVE ROAD, "remember what we agreed on?"

Dear amicable ~ you love your mother. If you didn't, you'd not be hurting so much, nor so deeply. That, imho, is the rub. i'm in the same ~ or similar~ boat. Oh for an oar, to alter the course, change the tide, control the waters. We cannot control others - we can only control our responses and reactions. In the middle of her tirade or tantrums, just say ... "i must leave now. i'll talk with you later, when you're ready to talk ... and listen." And leave. If you live in the same house, go to a safe spot [your room?] or for a walk. Drive to a park, or even a nursery - just to be around Nature and pretty lovely things. Libraries are nice, too. Check out a book on CD that you can play in your car while driving. Books on tape/CD have literally saved my sanity at times. i can work off the angst and nervous energy while listening to a pleasant voice "reading outloud" to me. Start with a favorite author. After a few books, you'll learn to choose CDs narrated by certain recording artists. A favorite of mine that she penned is called "Once Upon a Time: Discovering Our Forever After Story". Listening to it on CD is soothing, and you'll find that elusive gem of self-esteem is still within you. Don't let anyone take that from you, please. It sounds as though she takes delight in using you as a whipping post. i'm sorry for that. Truly. To me, along with forgiveness comes responsibility to improve one's demeanor - there's accountability attached with forgiving and in being forgiven. You'll enjoy any of D. Macomber's books - starting with the Blossom Street series. A librarian will assist you in determining which came first [there's a continuity in the growth of character and plot - which is quite masterfully written]. Another is a series of mystery novels "The Cat Who .... " by Lillian Jackson Braun - she started writing the Cat series in when she was about 63 and continued her "The Cat Who... " mystery novels from 1966-2008 [about age 93]. They are cleverly written, and very imaginative. They literally take you into the thought process of an elusive cats inherited by Jim Qwilleran. The best narrator of the series is George Guidall. The books are also available on Kindle, et al, CD or hardback/soft cover - i just like to have 'company' while doing chores like cleaning a closet, etc. But as others suggest, set your boundaries. You're not that trusting naive child anymore, but an adult who has earned her stripes ... you deserve good things in your like. You aren't disrespecting your mother by setting boundaries, taking the wind out of her sails by absenting yourself from the path of the storm -- do something that takes your mind away from the trouble, and remove yourself from the situation. Wait to hear her jaw drop to the floor. You must respect yourself if you want her to STOP mistreating you. Please, don't stand still for it. i know firsthand also what it's like to "not have favor" by a parent i so dearly love, and realized lately that for years, i'd been trying to earn her favor -- to my own physical, emotional and self-esteem detriment. i didn't feel i deserved to have anything good - and that i only 'earned' problems and troubles. WRONG. i just wish i had the gumption sooner to realize that it only takes absenting yourself from their tantrums and hurling objects to start to allow yourself to heal. Sacrifice doesn't earn you favor either. You need to find your value [as others see in you -- and the kindness you possess] and realize those traits are NOT hers to destroy. Those traits are yours to enjoy and share. The hard part is that she won't change ... as in Aesops Fables, i think it was a snake and a lion - read it a long time ago. The lion rescued the snake, they became good inseparable 'buddies' and one day the snake bit the lion .. the lion said "i rescued you .. we're friends .. why did you bite me? The snake replied: "you knew i was a snake when you rescued me." Could have been a scorpion and an elephant - but the moral is the same. Blessings to you. Remember: an oak in the rain doesn't make it any less. You are an oak - strong and majestic. The storm does not, cannot diminish you, unless you can set your emotions aside, take "awareness of the moment" and tell her you'll talk with her when she's more reasonable .. and leave. Go for a walk, or a movie, or anything your heart desires. It's okay if you cry ~ it doesn't make you weaker nor a victim. You love your Mom -- but she knows your soft spots to hurt you. That's not right - love is kind. Practice in front of a mirror if you need to. You almost need to have the pulse of a barometer to realize the storm is brewing. So be aware of the signs before it becomes a tempest ... and take that first move, please, to set the boundaries and just "we'll talk later, meanwhile think about [insert phrase]". Then you will be prepared, instead of surprised. Blessings ~

You're right everyone... What makes it so difficult is the fact that it's your mother that you're dealing with (we only have one)... All these emotional times play havoc, does not heal the wounded heart and brings me to tears, especially when they're gone (because it will be forever etched in your memory). Difficult to deal with the damage...

One thing that I also realize is that dealing with this kind mental dysfunction of mother/parent/sibling really hampers your ability to think straight... It muddles up your head... not good when trying to work, drive, have a life... or anything else. Not a quality life that anyone would choose by any means.

Yes, all of the dynamics creates brain fog while we deal with the dysfunctional F.O.G. that is so strong with abusive people that also can envelop us or hoover us into its unhealthy drama which further beats of on the wounded heart!

This leads to mourning the parent that we never really had and creates the need for us to treat ourselves like a loving, healthy parent would.

I think I've interacted with this theme enough and am going to take a break for a good part of today.

Turning points for me: realizing I can choose to react: learn how NOT to be defensive, learn how to respond NOT with anger, learn how to detach, let go, learn how to feel your anger but not be ruined by it, lean how to laugh to yourself, learn to see your sick parent as sick, know they don't even know how much they hurt you, know they love you in their own twisted way, know you must master yourself and this is the best way God wanted you to learn this. Know that you are NOT responsible for your sick parent's happiness.

When my mother demands something, or tries to ask by bending me with guilt tactics, or her other bag of tricks, I know I don't have to jump. I will choose to respond or not. My life is about God and myself.

It's all a play. Actors don't feel personally responsible and guilty for the way they must play their part on stage in this story. Neither do we.

Try to be loving as possible, for YOUR sake. If you fail, (and Ha, believe me I sure do!) I am glad I can still learn while she is here. I do admit I often wish this test were over and how free I will be when she's gone. But some daughters never recover no matter how long their mothers have gone.

Try to find that uniqueness that your parent has and try to be amused. Yes, BE AMUSED. That denotes distance, and the kind of love with no baggage.
I long to be free, within myself and be able to love again: as a human, not a lover. I believe it IS possible.

Same boat here and I sought help through Al Anon and ACOA. Mom went to AA for a while and it helped. The core issues run deep. I went to therapy the last yr and have more tools to handle it. It's not easy but giving up was not an option for me. If you need to chat, PM me. HUGS

Scared: You might want to try Reform U.com.