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Specifically: Why do we choose to do hurtful things to others, things that were done to us that we swore we would never do? Even after we are older, have had therapy and worked on it for years and supposedly aware of these issues? How do we purge the mind and heart of doing and saying hurtful things?

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That has got to be a key, deciding that you deserve to both be treated better and to be better and really move on. Thank you for you post...
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Jsome glad you are a part of this group you do give to us -I am 70 and about 5 yrs. ago I decided that I do not deserve to be treated badly my husband was very upset his stranglehold on me was broken and on his deathbed he would not respond to me only other family members but now esp. after reading some of his rants he was mentaly sick and had been for many years and actually he did not hurt me-I would have liked some closure on our relationship but even though we wer not allowed to divorce a part of me had left but I did do right by him and got him the best care anyone could have gotten at the end and did tell him it was alright for him to leave us just before he died and I am strong enough to know I was not to blame for his mental decline.
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Is do or do not there is no try...you must un-learn what you have learned, GOOD GOD Yoda was a genius, or a gestalt therapist, possibly Jungian?
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Ok, Skywalker, go for it and may the force of healthy boundaries go with you!
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Hey when i dream in Star Wars I Am Luke Skywalker!

Think you are right about boundaries. It must be some insidious thing that the people who can needle us the most are the closest. Duh I guess, moron in traffic is nothing compared to what your intimates can do to you...
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those we need to have boundaries with the most like them the least and give us the most pain in the rear over. The person with the strongest amount of personality disorder who was the most intrusive person in your life will become like darth vader, but unlike in star wars, you will not be able to be Luke Skywalker and redeem that person back to sound health. They are too far gone into the dark side of Fear, Obligation and Guilt to the extent that they incarnate the darkest side of two very powerful and extremely intrusive as well as abusive personality disorders. Don't give up because you are 39. You have a lot of life ahead of you and there are others who started later on a healthier path who have made it out of the dark side and into the light. All you or anyone in your shoes can really do is to chose a healthier path for yourself whether or not anyone else does, but if they do, fine and if not fine because you did not create their illness, nor can you control it, much less can you fix it, but you can break the chain they've forged for you to wear in life.

Honestly, I have relatives in my extended family whose darkness could make Darth Vader's look almost like a saint. I will not shed a tear when they die. However, there is another extended family member who's been valient in fighting the darkness of her worship-fullness, queen mommy dearest up close and personal right where she lives as well as overcome cancer and dealt with a needy husband. I hope she outlives her mother by many years, but whenever she dies I will probably cry for 2 or 3 days straight and might need some medication to get me through her funeral She's in therapy and she's reads everything that I've loaned her from my library related to this darkness along with talking hours about this and I think the student has frankly learned better than the teacher. When we are all together in one place we watch each others back because some are still rather weak in dealing with even the less able queen bee herself.
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I had therapy at various periods in my life was never really easy, 10 seemed too young like I didn't get it, at 39 it makes more sense and can have a goal or some idea of what this is all for.

Geography is right. I Can't Stay here. I am starting to look for lake houses out side of the state. All I need is five million bucks...Uh hu...

I know from toxic people, I am pretty good at setting some boundaries, but it seems the closer the people are the harder the boundary is to set.
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no one said it was going to be easy which is why most give up or they just keep moving from one therapist to another so that nothing ever gets accomplished. and so few get there.

Very often it takes separating oneself from the geographical environment that keeps producing the germs. I put up with such toxicity from my extended family for years until I said enough is enough, this person (MIL) does nothing but bring down hell on earth when she visits, when she self-invites herself on our every vacation and when we go to her house for the holidays. So, I told my wife that for the sake of my sanity and the boys, my MIL would no longer be allowed in certain places of contact with our family but if she wanted to go visit the source of all mental illness personality germs then that was her choice, but she would do it alone and not with using either or both boys as a shield.
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Thanks Crowe. Grandpa will be signed up for Tuesdays and Fridays and i have three likely hits for looking for therapists.

I am gonna beat a dead horse but I do know about hard wiring. I mean really I sit here know it is wrong and will do what ever it is anyhow, knowing better, not being stupid, and I have been in therapy. I guess it is gonna take a while. I believe three are MSW and one is a psychologist...

The chain in my family is thick, very thick. i think I will need a welding tool...
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We chose things that are bad when we know better because of how we got wired and became familiar with, although did not like, that later our heads find out is not normal or healthy. Thus, without dealing with the wiring, hurt people often hurt people. For example, several years ago, my mother point blank told me that she knew from her college and graduate education that the way she raised me was wrong, and would cause me a lot of pain in life, but she could not help it.

Thus, one of my most repeated comment that support people with the idea of getting a qualified therapist for some face to face support that can actually do the psycho-anaytic work that's not possible online. Frankly, I will not go to anyone or take anyone in my family or suggest anyone to somebody who is not at least a LCSW and even then I look for people with some experience because the sort of issues I and my family members bring to the table are things we don't need some bookish person to cut their therapist's teeth on.

Experience is not always the best teacher because if it were then why would the lessons keep being repeated. If we came from an alcoholic family but keep marrying an alcoholic, then the person needs therapy to find out why they keep falling in the same ditch instead of saying "I'll just give up because there is no one good enough for me." Truly, the apple does not fall far from the tree and carries the seeds of self-destruction by its inheritance and those seeds sprout as well as control us beyond what we know in our heads. Without serious therapy and hard work, such a chain never gets broken and there are many chains in today's families which need breaking.
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:-)
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thank you rossella, moving on here. learning everyday every encounter. may even have antennae budding out...
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J, I feel that you are going on the right trail. And as you know, I use my antemnas a lot.
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Thank you always my duty. I see that now. No one can help me really, thank you for the offer and insight. Some of us just dwell on the negative for too long and find it hard to see the positive. But even that trait can be corrected.
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You remind me of a segment on the local news I saw a few yrs back. A young lady was being interviewed, having been rescued from a catastrophic event in another state. She was in a rescue shelter where she was being fed, had access to dated clothes and cash and encouraged by the local community, whose compassion for others is something I will never forget. The newsman asked her if she was ok and her reply was "well the clothes are someone else's rags, I wouldn't ever wear them and hey why is the second bologna sandwich they're throwing at me, why can't they give us something better?" Her negativity came through loud and clear, all the while she is holding her infant safely in her lap. Can you imagine how some of the others mothers felt who had just lost their children? Offers of encouragement and caring,positive words are staring you in the face (example:Rossella) and you won't even look. All you're looking at is what someone else said to you or who hurt your feelings or who didn't agree with you. If you want to cleanse your heart and mind of doing hurtful things over and over again, then stop it. If you can't stop hurting others then you need some help you won't get on this site.
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Hmm sounds like it is a medication issue with grandpa, and a come back in two months. OK on to Adult day care it is then.
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I will, though I feel bad you are getting blow back from this. guilt by association. the other woman was right it is like grade school. "I won't like you if you still like her.." Or was that high school?
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It's a start, J. Feel better about yourself.
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Thank you deefer.Just a bad day I think here. It will pass ,the rest is up to me.
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I hope so, but I have to give to get as well. I have to just move on and turn off the crap and find some positivity somewhere.
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Rossella is right J ! You just have to believe in yourself.
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Yes, apart from the words, the idea is that one cannot possibly be happy to deal with poop and mental degeneration. I'll miss my mother if she dies before me, but I won't miss this part of her life. (and my life)

J you have a lot of good years in front of you. Believe it!
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Gotta go do something positive for a bit here.
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No no from before, just sort of she intoned that it was wrong to be grossed out by stuff because it meant we were I don't know missing the bigger picture. I am not sure she actually used the word glory but I swear she said love...
my focus now is suicidal. But nothing will come of it. Just really tired here. Grp had dr ap. no idea, but he is out mumbling at every frickin word on the TV now, mom go this money from the bank...wish i could steal it and just run away....
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You are not a pain. According to me, you should just redirect your focus. By the way, I will never say that I glory in a poop of a loved one... That's just too much
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Thank you for getting back to me on that. Maybe it doesn't apply to the site either. But it is sort of part of my life and I am here in a similar situation. But Your are right Rosella, this isn't a place to buy an apple. I see that. I think I always knew it. I think I will just be like the woman who came and told us "we were all pests to not glory in poop of a loved one and miss the moments." She just went away too. Thank you everybody, I am sorry I have been such a pain. It is my problem and I should not have foisted it on others in here.
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J, I have been into psychotherapy for 10 years and I know something about the problems of growing up. ( I did not go to a psychologist, I went to a "psychiatrist" - good and strong analysis). I had so many practical problems since then, that I have become a practical person. My poor and simple opinion is that this is not the place to talk about God, or sex, or other subjects that trigger strong reactions in other people. (Who overreact because they are stressed) There is a whole world out there to confront ourselves at any level. And we better do it!)
This is a place where we should find support and suggestions about our problems in dealing with ill relatives. I read many things here that are useful for me, and I am sure you read many things here that were useful for you, I felt less alone in dealing with the problems I have with my mother. Did you feel less alone? I hope so.
This is the only thing that is important to me and I focus on that. It seems to me you have taken many different directions (and you are still doing it. This is another thread that has nothing to do with this site).
I say this FOR YOU. For me, it's not a problem. If I am fed up with hearing people quarrel about God or whatever, I don't read the post and I pass to another one which is more interesting for me.
I will make you an example: If I need to buy an apple, I go to a fruit seller and I buy an apple. But if you (Jsome) go to a fruit seller and you ask for a steak, or a bycicle, or a washing machine, 1) you will not find it 2) the fruit seller will ask you: Why don't you go to another shop? I sell fruit, here, and he finally will get angry if you insist 3) You will miss the opportunity to eat the apple!
Which is basically the reason why you went into that store.
I think I have told you what I wanted to tell you. I'm not against you, but I have not the strength to do more than writing this post! It has taken me half an hour to write it.
There are many people here who are ready to help you, me included (as I am receiving a lot of help!) But you cannot help a person that does not accept the help she is receiving!.



If people want to leave this site, it's their choice, whatever is their opinion, whether are religious or not religious.
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You definitely get people to pay attention to you. You are very alone and maybe this is your way to get everyone's attention. Having grown up in a loving family with lots of siblings and 2 loving parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and lots of cousins, I can't even begin to imagine the horrors you have been through. Some of us are made stronger by bad memories and some of us never get over them. I hope talking about this will help you find the answers you are looking for.
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Isn't it like the woman who is abused by her husband, gets divorced from him and turns around and marries another abuser? I guess it's what she's used to, it's a comfortably uncomfortable place to be. To move away from what she knows, would be too scary. I know someone thinks that make sense, to me it's too weird.
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