Mom had a CD for $5,000 with my name on it but p.o.d. (payable on her death.) She considered it to be my CD. Over the years I used it for collateral on loans. 3-1/2 years ago I wanted to use it for a loan again, but she said it wasn't earning hardly any interest on it, so why not just cash it in. So we did. She also had a $5,000 CD with my brother's name on it, also payable on her death. She also decided to cash his in for him. She figured it was her choice to forget about the payable on death, and cash them in for us. When she got the cds, it was probably 10 to 15 years ago. Had she not put p.o.d. on them, and just had our names on them, there wouldn't be a problem. But now she needs nursing home care. Is this going to be a problem, even though our names were on them? And if there is a penalty and she has no way to pay the penalty, then what? Is she out on the street, so to speak? I'm disabled, and my brother has no money. So we have no way to pay it back. Mom put the house in our names 10 years ago with her having a life estate. That was her only asset, other than a car valued at about $1,000. So she has no way to pay a penalty. So if no one can pay it, what happens next? Because she put the house in our names while retaining a life estate, we can't sell it till she dies. And we're broke, so have no money to pay for upkeep. Her mom lived to be 96, so we might have to hold onto it for another 9 years if she lives as long as her mom. We can't afford our own places plus hers. I live in a trailer with my disabled husband and don't want to sell my place and move into hers. When she dies, we'd sell her house (not a trailer) and then I wouldn't have my trailer to move back into. My brother has a nice double wide on its own lot and doesn't want to sell his place either. Neither of us can get a loan so we have no way to pay the cds back. Mom is 87 and can't get a loan either, for the penalty. So what happens when no one can pay the penalty??? Does that mean mom can't go into the nursing home? Is there any way around the life estate? Could she put it in my name (since I'm disabled would that exempt the transfer to just my name with no life estate) so that we could then sell it instead of waiting till she dies? This is all so confusing, she's in the hospital and they want her in the nursing home within days.
But before you pop open that bottle of bubbly........ needs to be rented at fair market value. & rent is income to each “owner”. Income is reportable and taxable. Someone will need to deal with property management and also make sure the % of rent due to mom is included in required by Medicaid copay to the NH. This could pose eligibility issue if fmv rent added to moms existing monthly income (like SS, other retirement) could take her over the Medicaid limit for income set by your state.
It flat won’t be simple.
Really gather up all property legal, all of moms old dpoa and schedule a appt with an elder law atty. If this were me personally I’d get NAELA level atty.
Please realize it is NOT that the NH that wants the $ from the house sale. NH needs to be paid for their stay...... whether it’s paid from $ from moms savings; from the sale of a home ; or if eligible from Medicaid’s daily paid R&B $ to the NH; or or that someone in the family private pays for her stay.
Based on what you’ve posted, it reads there is no way around Moms having her LE on the property without it having a value which is an asset. Have NAELA atty work with mom & you all to look at what options exist and what the costs would be.
I learned about the percentages from the IRS tax tables; nobody thinks any of the property, even the house, is worth very much anyway, so they don't really think be issue with Medicaid re nh, but any property has some value but would Medicaid have appraisal done themselves to determine how much lien or at least how much value toward the lien?
re other situation, maybe it's a state thing, too, but in state of my dad, courthouse told me even dpoa wouldn't cover real estate unless specifically stated to so couldn't sell dad's house, at least not legally, but if I had would have been to have allowed him to go into assisted living, probably not nursing home, at that point, anyway, but something ran into after he passed away, with them only having recertification every 4 years is his house was not worth what they assessing it at, so trying to get comps by house sales in his neighborhood, only one close at time, but was foreclosure, so didn't count, but burned - strange, huh - shortly after, so then bought from insurance company? since when were houses totaled out and turned over to insurance companies? what about the property house was on? have you ever heard of anything like that? bought by somebody who owned another house in neighborhood with mortgage but none on this one, bought by mortgaging yet another house owned that he lived in so no real record of final price paid, then another house finally went on market, with same situation, elderly male widow owner passed away and even though assessment situation might have been different, still didn't sell in its condition, not until same type repairs made, all this determined to be defined by insurance companies who won't insure, not necessarily because of condition, just age, and basically had to be done by family, otherwise getting underwater for sure, still had to lower price even after for to finally sell, but at least had family willing to do, something don't seem to have
in current situation, not sure why issue brought up about uncle laying outside for an hour before being missed
Love, love, love the part where “Ryan Todd” asked the NH for a refund of the $ paid for his dads last month NH stay as dad died before the end of month cause there should be a refund paid. Cojones!
GuestShoppe, honey, you gotta link good old boy “Ryan Todd” on a regular basis to posts on AC!
"Son steals parents' money, leaves dad at funeral home"
he left mother in medicaid nursing home, stole both parents pensions without paying nursing homes after he put parents in different ones, and he left his father in funeral home without paying for services so taxpayers would pay final expenses. A real charmer.
On LE my understanding is most have LE if it was irrevocable done over 5 yrs ago is beyond MERP. But LE irrevocable under 5 yrs has transfer penalty. And states consider any LE if revocable to involve gifting & transfer penalty and the amt based on the % tenant owner age & property value with % shared by all remainder men. Revocable can be switched back. It’s not simple; really LE needs sharp elder law atty to shepherd the application imo.
LE breakout usually done by a taxation pro. Although irs has tables. If it were me, I’d get a property inspection then solid appraisal done & perhaps residential engineering report done before even turning it over to taxation atty (LL.M) to run %.
About the son who sold his moms house at my moms 1st NH, I imagine he had dpoa that allowed for all finances, sold her home, put the $ in her account and then paid himself. TX MLS allow dpoa to sign off the paper work at the act of sale, so his mom not needed to be there. TX has annual recertification, so I’d bet property sale showed up as all real property data is easily cross referenced btw county assessors & state database and the property was already in her file from the initial application. Just a few keystrokes for Medicaid to find sale to surface and to the penny. But whatever the path was, he didn’t report it to Medicaid, he ignored all correspondence and NH had enough and got APS involved which snowballed to his mom being made Ward of the state and moved to another NH by the new guardian. Major drama and totally avoidable.
I hope your families LE is irrevocable and beyond any MERP should they ever need Medicaid as it sounds so very very convoluted. Good luck.
Your family is having an issue that happens often..... the elder refuses to or cannot pay property costs. If it’s that the elder can’t afford property costs, then family needs to pay the whatever’s.
But if it’s that the elders viewpoint is “you all are going to inherit, so you all need to pay now”; that they have the $$$$ but won’t pay, that’s a very VERY different problem. Elder is holding you all hostage. If you call their bluff and refuse to pay taxes, insurance etc, just what will they do??? For property taxes, most places have 3 consecutive years before a tax lien redemption can happen, if you like risk....you could push not paying taxes to 2yrs 11 mos to see if they crater. Interest is significant on delinquent property taxes, so keep that in mind.
Now my 1 NH experience was at my moms first NH: lady on Medicaid across the hall from her had a son who sold her very very modest home & kept $. Lady was sweet & had been there for over a yr. Sonny was imho a total azz. The property sale had been found out & lady was suspended from Medicaid. Many loud conversations regarding her bill with him in hallway and in patio. He basically was “you can’t make me” & he also was always finding issues with the facility. One day when I was visiting my mom, big big lay commotion as Sonny came to visit and his mom was gone. Apparently NH contacted APS (as Sonny ingnored the NH certified mail 30 day notices); APS got emergency hearing (Sonny ignored APS cc’d letter too) was & judge appointed temporary guardian with mom being made ward of the state. Guardian moved her to another NH. Police were called and they escorted him out. NH turned acct over to collections. Guardian / APS could maybe file breach of fiduciary duty against Sonny too. But to me biggest issue was I cannot imagine how beyond traumatic all this was for the lady......I just cannot imagine how awful! What’s so whack about this is that if Sonny had just let mom continue to own her home till she died & he paid all costs and kept track of costs and then filed for MERP exemptions & exclusions plus probate costs, Sonny more than likely would have inherited house as per his moms will. House maybe worth 30k very low value.
Is that correct?
The gov is paying either way. If state takes over no federal overlay, regulations or family interference? And it would depend on the state she resides in as to how good or bad the care is I am also assuming?
To me, there’s 4 different yet intertwined issues:
1. Mom gifted 2 5k CDs. If done within past 5 years (since 2012), it will show up easily both in banking & tax records, causing 10k transfer penalty. Penalty is basically a math problem: amount of item gifted divided by your states daily room& board reimbursement rate paid to NH by Medicaid. So $175 daily R&B means 57 day penalty in which Medicaid will not pay, so family will need to pay for her stay, IF the atty. cannot get penalty waived.
2. Life Estate & the “We can’t sell it till she dies” is just not true. If it’s an LE, then mom is tenant owner & you / bro are the Remaindermen. Mom still owns & can sell. BUT % of her ownership & share of $ from the sale will need to be determined by what her age is at the time of sale. IRS has actuarial tables for this in Section 7520. It is not simple and imho has to be done by a taxation pro. The elder law atty will have someone they work with to do it. Now selling property poses another gifting issue as you & bros % ownership as Remainder men can possibly also be viewed as gifting by Medicaid with a transfer penalty placed. A lot will depend on how LE was done... like revocable or irrevocable. Again something for mom to discuss with her atty.
3. Medicaid for how most states administer their program allow for the elder to continue to keep their primary residence as an exempt asset for their lifetime. Mom does NOT need to sell her home to be eligible. BUT Medicaid requires mom to do a copay of basically all her monthly income (like her SS) to the NH. Mom will have no funds to pay on any of the home costs..... like taxes, insurance, utilities, etc. Family will need to pay. Now some states allow for empty property costs to be deducted from the Medicaid tally that becomes the MERP amount after death, but it’s totally on family to track & document those costs and in detail. If mom lives for years & years, well costs will mount up and will have to be paid otherwise risk have tax sale happen or uninsured property losses. It sounds like realistically neither you or your brother can afford to take on paying moms house expenses. House can be sold.
Really once on NH Medicaid, it doesn’t matter whether house is in an LE, or a future TOD, Lady Bird Deed, or testamentary Trust, whatever the case..... If you want to have mom keep house then family will need to front all property costs from day 1 of Medicaid and then after mom dies and through whatever MERP, probate, TOD, etc paperwork clears.
4. Disabled brother - MERP recognizes the situation of disabled heirs and can waive or release a claim or lien against the estate that would be the disabled heirs. But if it’s 50/50 you & bro, then only his 50% gets waived. Unless you also can qualify for one of the many other exemptions or exclusions to MERP (like caregiver or low income exemption). Otherwise estate recovery Lien or claim can still be placed on your share. You can reduce it by doing an exemption from all those costs paid that you kept meticulous records as well as after death costs paid. Again just how to best do this is something to clearly speak with the elder law atty about.
None of this is simple, and why an atty needed.
About what happens if mom can’t pay. For both my mom & MILs application, the NHs reviewed the supporting documentation required to see IF they (NH) would even take them as a “Medicaid Pending” resident to begin with. For my mom, one document required was a notarized letter from her bank as to the disposition of any CDs, TBills or closed accounts within past 5 years. Fortunately all went into her checking account so fully accountable. But if 2 CDs had been just cashed out, I doubt mom would have been accepted as “Pending” so instead would have had to do private pay rate to live at the NH till Medicaid approved. You may find this is what will happen with your mom. If the $ is just not there, then elders can become a ward of the state, and so state takes over responsibility for moms care and her property.
Really your situation is complicated & not a DIY; pls get mom to see an atty ASAP and BEFORE she ever does a Medicaid application. Good Luck.