Attorney said nothing can be done to change POA. Is that true?

If your grandmother was not legally competent (confused, early dementia developing), you can make a case to a court that your aunt took advantage of that and have the POA declared void. You can also ask to be made her guardian. We had a similar case in our family when my mom's sneaky sister had their dad change his will in her favor and he had no idea what he was signing. The sister's equally sneaky attorney actually "guided his hand" with hers to get the signature. It sounds like your aunt must have used a notary at her bank (that is where I also get papers notarized) and not in front of a lawyer which looks rather shifty as well as this is a legal document she apparently drew up herself. Definitely do look into getting it voided.

These are all very good answers and you need to have your Mom look at this logically.....if there is a rift between the two sisters it could be sibling rivalry and nothing more in which case you should tell your Mom to relax. There is a good point here also that your aunt could not obtain POA at a bank it has to be done through an attorney and I believe your Mom has the right to see it, if it exists. You normally have it drawn up and signed at the attorney and then take it to your bank to let them know you have authority to make all financial decisions for in this case your grandmother.

Once your grandmother's dementia or Alzheimer's becomes too bad, the POA and items in the Trust cannot be changed unless you seek guardianship, which is long, drawn out, and costs a huge amount of money.

I went through all this myself and I had the POA, now the terms of a trust are not to be disclosed until the person dies, however it was taking a huge toll on our family as I had one sibling that did not trust me and was trying to discredit me anyway he could. This same sibling was the reason I took POA, he was draining my mother's accounts on a regular basis.....I took POA to stop the bleed! An attorney suggested that I go ahead and show the trust and documents to all the siblings so there would be no question as to what was in it and what powers I held. I have made all siblings aware of the income and the outlay on all bills, banking accounts etc. I am handling everything aboveboard and do not want to be accused of anything. Your aunt could be prosecuted and removed from her POA if she is misappropriating funds of your grandmothers.

If you are able to have a decent conversation with the aunt, ask if she would be willing to share this information with all the siblings so there is no question in the future as to what she has done. If she refuses, then you could try to contact the attorney who drew it up if you can find them or seek your own attorney and ask if there is a way that she can be made to share this information. She may be doing a really good job, but unless she shows you the facts your mind can wander to all types of scenarios. Be kind and just ask her first, she may not even have POA she may just be signed on to the account as already mentioned. If this is the case your grandmother can no longer give it to anyone, you would have to seek guardianship and lose a lot of money in the process.

My reading is that Mom wants to complain, and daughter doesn't want to listen to it! My daughter will tell me how much her head hurts, but refuse Tylenol, and tell me, she just wants to complain!!!

If that's what your mother is doing, just yes her to death, and have a good relationship with the aunt. If she's not abusing her power, it doesn't matter who has POA, except to your mother's ego.

I apologize if I got it all wrong.

Oh so true, Bookluvr, that there are two sides to every story. That's why we have courts.
Be sure that your appointed and employed attorney represents YOU, and not the mediator.

The original post says the grandmother said "the lawyers already said." Who said the lawyers said? Did the grandmother talk to them her self, or did the aunt tell her that is what they said?

The post also says that the grandmother doesn't speak English well. So, if she spoke to attorneys herself did she really understand the attorney, and if she is competent enough to contact an attorney, I'd think she is competent enough to change her POA.

Lastly, I live in Washington state and was told recently by an elder law attorney that in this state, people with dementia can change legal documents, IF they have moments of clarity AND they have two witnesses that they were when they signed. So, I'd say that Sabrinafair should contact an elder law attorney in her state to find out.

All good posts here. #1 thing, find out what is really bothering your Mom. Is she worried about your Grandmother or her money? What is her relationship with her sister? Is there a rivalry between them over something that you don't know about? POA's can be changed with the help of a notary, especially if the notary comes right to Grandmother's house and watches her sign - I know because it happened to me. The notary abused her power, my father's signature was "drawn" not written, he held the pen, but had help...I don't think this is the case here. I never heard of banks doing POA's either. Possibly your aunt is just a co-signer on her accounts, which would have to be done at the bank with Grandmother's o.k. and her signature also. Most importantly, if Grandmother is being well taken care of and no abuse either physically, financially or emotionally is going on, I don't see a problem here. You must not let yourself be in the middle, for your own health sake. Good suggestion to visit Grandmother often, and Auntie too. Help with the chores, take food, or give Auntie a break by sitting with Grandmother so Auntie can have some respite. Your Mom should be going to visit often, not to confront, but to help also. Do unto others, as you hope they will do to you, kindness counts. Keep us posted -this site is wonderful and we've shared your pain. xxxooo

The POA cannot be changed once the signer (grandmother, in this case) is no longer legally competent. However, your mom or other interested party can petition the local probate court to be appointed as legal guardian of your grandmother. A hearing will be held to sort out what is going on and who should be guardian. After the guardian is appointed, their power trumps that of the POA agent, i.e., your aunt. So, if your mother is appointed legal guardian by the court, then the POA would no longer be valid, as a practical matter.

To Greenie....YES...all my parents affairs ARE also part of a trust and I am the Trustee as well as having the POAs. The attorney is an eldercare/trust attorney so perhaps that is WHY I have to show more about how the money is being used. We are also doing a Medicaid 'spend down' to get Dad qualified for long term care assistance and applications for VA long term care, so I suppose lots of this submission of checking/savings account monthly statements and looking for details of money being spent is related to all that work going on. I just take care of the bills and try to provide details as requested. It IS a very time consuming responsibility however, and I cannot imagine anyone being ANXIOUS to take on POAs and becoming responsible for all medical care etc. It is very difficult for me because, first of all I live 5 hours away, and then, I am the only child left and there is no family left in my parents' town to check on them and problem solve. Dad is placed but there are still constant issues about care and his behaviors. Mom is home with a caregiver, but she is a non compliant 'pistol' about keeping her independence and refuses or is unable to understand all her risks. I just had her go through a Neuro Psych eval...and the results is that now we know that she also is in early stages of dementia. So I need the law firm caseworker down there and whatever assistance I can find locally to keep tabs on both of them. Reading these suggestions for how to find assistance from various agencies, is frustrating to me. I cannot imagine where I would ever have the time, from either here or from there when I go to visit, to try to track down all these resources! When I am with my parents, I am so totally overwhelmed just with the day to day care that I cannot get on the phone to search for resources at all! And from up here, it's difficult to find real phone numbers and such on line. A big need I see, is an over seeing agency to help with elder care issues like being described here and I sure don't find anything good in Tucson. A person who interviews you and just THEY find what you need and provides you with all the contact information. Someone who is a caregiver and can hardly get out grocery shopping, certainly doesn't have the ability to run around looking for resources to help them!

Some financial institutions have their own POA form that is required to be signed and on file. This is the case with my moms accounts at Charles Schwab. However the bank where she has her checking and savings account will accept the POA from the attorney. I have read on this site that you can get forms for POA online and you only need to have them noterized. I do not know if online POA forms are effective when a person has large amounts pf money and property since most people with lots of assets are going to go to an attorney and get a trust. I do agree that if there is no financial or physical abuses going on and grandma is being taken care of and treated well...there really should be no issue.

If your grandmother was already diagnoised here is some possible help.
Guardianship

After people with dementia no longer have the mental capacity to sign a legal document - understanding what it means and what its implications are - it is more difficult to set up a legal arrangement to help make decisions for them. For example, a loved one might refuse needed help but have serious problems with daily living. Guardianship is a legal arrangement that does allow caregivers to make financial, healthcare, and other decisions on behalf of loved ones who can no longer make decisions as a result of disability, incapacity, or mental illness.

Seeking guardianship can be a complicated and frustrating process, since it usually involves legal proceedings to establish that the individual is indeed incapable of making decisions for himself. Consider obtaining a lawyer in the state of the person with dementia who will be familiar with the laws of the state. In general, guardianship proceedings follow this general format:

The caregiver or another individual files a petition to declare the incompetency of the person with dementia to the Superior Court clerk for the county.
The clerk may require documentation from a doctor, social worker, psychiatrist, and/or another healthcare worker in order to establish whether a hearing is needed.
The sheriff's office will serve a notice of the hearing to the person with dementia and the person filing the petition must also make sure that all family members are notified as well.
An attorney may be appointed to represent the person with dementia and the hearing will allow any objections to or evidence for and against declaring the person incompetent.
The clerk or a jury will look at the evidence and make a decision on whether or not the person is incompetent and then he or she will hear evidence and make a decision on who should serve as guardian(s) for the person.
Once designated, a guardian is usually able to make decisions about an individual's finances and personal health care and well-being, but the legal proceeding may choose to establish separate guardianships. Contact your local Area Agency on Aging or Alzheimer's Association in order to be put in contact with an elder law attorney, social worker, or another individual who can help you learn more about guardianship. I truly hope that this will make some peace for you and your mother. Good Luck

I believe there are different types of POAs and you can obtain a POA different ways. I first obtained one for my parents at a bank- notarized of course- so that I could represent them with utility companies. The second time it was with a lawyer with a redoing of their will. I don't have the obligation to report out on anything financial. That sounds like a shared trusteeship where a law firm or trust firm shares responsibility with a relative for handling money and the law firm is paid a fee out of the estate. A consultation with an elder attorney (sometimes they will comp an hour) sounds in order. There are also many good websites that explain the POA.

I have POA on both of my parents here in Arizona and my first thought was that how could a POA have been done at a bank? Do you know FOR SURE it's a POA, and not just that they went to the bank and added your aunt to the checking/savings accounts, so that your Aunt could pay bills? My parents had to go through a procedure much as the answer from Australia says...an attorney, lots of questions. And monthly, I must submit checking account statements to a financial person at the law firm and answer any questions the firm has about the spending of the money too. My POA is 30 pages long and has to be submitted to everywhere they have money invested and to all banks where they have accounts. It's NOT a casual thing. Dad, with his dementia, wanted to undo his, and the lawfirm had to send him to two doctors, to have both attest in writing to whether or not he could handle his own affairs anymore. Both said NO and they called Dad and Mom in and told them that the POA could not be changed for him. I do suggest that this IS about whether or not Grandma is getting cared for properly, and that should be assessed first by visiting and talking to both Grandma and your Aunt. Ask openly about the POA. There's no reason you could not see it, or have a copy of it. Then, if all looks well, talk with your Mom about what her concerns are about your Aunt caring for Grandma. If there should be no POA, then it sounds time to put something in place. And yes...one person can have POA over money and another have POA over medical. That can also be like a double check as to what is happening in the care of the person. But if Grandma is no longer competent, I believe you would be looking at guardianship rather than POA? I assume, if you know what bank it is, you could simply go to the bank and ask exactly what papers were signed there too. They can't discuss specifics but can certainly say who is on the accounts as signers and yes or no, that they did a POA for your grandmother. I hope this helps.

I tried to have my older brother removed as POA, and spoke with an attorney about it. He basically said that if my brother has not made a lot of fiduciary mistakes or fraudulently mishandled my father's affairs, then there is no real legal recourse. I could still do it, but it would become a long drawn out affair that would cost more in legal fees than I would get from my inheritance. Bottom line, I learned how to get along with my brother and even though I don't like the situation (and I told him that) it is what is it is, and the best thing I can do is just be honest in my opinions, and offer as much help and support as possible.

It is not true that people are completely helpless once a POA is given, incompetent or not. If someone is using a POA to steal money or commit some other illegal act, then you can go to court. You can also challenge a POA if the person signed it under duress or was not competent at the time. The questions to ask: Do you have evidence of wrongdoing and is it worth the hassle?

It sounds like your mother is pitting you against your aunt and causing you pain. Step back younger one. Tell your mother if she has an issue with her sister, go talk to her sister because you can do nothing. If your aunt is not abusing her POA, then unless you can prove, beyond doubt in Court, the POA will stay in place. Family disputes are nothing new, nor are they easy when there is wealth involved. My own family is split now because there was money involved with our mother, and now that mother is deceased, I don't speak to my sisters at all. So, keep repeating, there is nothing you can do to your mother until she leaves you alone. The disagreement is between your mother and your aunt, and you stay out of their sister rivalry. Good luck!

Sorry - I dont think I can be of help as I live in Australia but I am shocked that one can go to the bank and get a POA. My mother renewed her POA and we had to go to lawyers and believe me they were absolutely meticulous in recording and ensuring that she was capable of making the decision to allocate her POA. Further under a POA here the attorney can only act or make decisions that reflects how the person would normally act. We have massive protections from exploitation on POAs. If a person with the POA is acting in a manner in which the person who allocated them the POA, for example, ripping of their money and clearly exploiting their POA, they would immediatley be in contravention of the laws around it and the law could withdraw their POA. From some of the posts on this site I am very shocked at what appears to be very lax legal approach that allows people who have any level of dementia to allocate POA - though it is essential for care and management. I could not believe the caution that lawyers had in protecting the interests of my mother when she renewed her existing POA (that was originally with me and remains so but she changed second POA should I be incapable or die). It was very reassuring that she was protected by the law. No bank is qualified to approve a POA surely because the provision of a POA, particularly of and elderly person, has to past the test of being capable of making that decision and clear evidence of lack of cohersion or influence in that decision. If POAs are made without clear evidence of a coherent understanding of the consequences of this decision, made independently and witnessed and evidenced as being made independently in the absence of coersion (for example the intended POA should not be present in the discussion with the lawyers), then something is clearly wrong. It is incumbent on the lawyers who create POAs to ensure they act in the interests of their client providing instructions - not the POA. If this is not the case then something is seriously wrong. Perhaps find out who did the POA, find out and question whether her capability to make such a decision was established and importantly find out if your aunt was present - if she was this compromises the whole issue. Good luck. From what I can see you guys need to focus on the laws around POAs.

I think the more important issue is...Is your aunt taking good care of your Grandmother? Is she abusing her POA? Have you spoken to your aunt in a friendly neutral manner and asked her what happened to Grandma that made your aunt think it was best to get POA? There are always 2 sides to a story.

If she is abusing her POA, is Grandmother still have all her mental capacity once in a while? Then when Grandmother is mentally alert, that would be the best time to change POA - if she wants to. If Grandmother has been declared mentally incompetent, then it would be impossible to change POA.

I'd recommend you go and have a nice visit to Grandma. Bring some small gifts of food, and sit down and have a nice chat with aunty and Grandma. Look around and see how Grandmother is in person. Is she healthy looking, etc.. And maybe you can do this visit weekly or bi-weekly to see if it's consistent.

Because truly, the most important thing here is NOT who has POA, but who is taking care of Grandmother, and is she really being taken care of.

was your grandmothers diagnoised with demetia before giving poa to your aunt? if so you can take this to court, but you would need to prove why your aunt should not be her poa, has she done something wrong, is she stealing from her or abusing her in some way, once someone is diagnosed with dementia it is hard to get a poa changed unless you can prove some kind of abuse, hope this helps

I'd politely tell mom to either put up or shut up (I said politely). Find a solution to the problem and then act on it. If she can get POA, fine. If she can't then stop complaining. Inform her that it is too stressful to hear it over and over and you don't like being put in the middle.

Plus where do you live . That plays a role in this too I'm sure?

From the post her Mother already consulted a Attorney.

No, consult a lawyer and get it ironed out, mom may just not want to go through the hassle l that is why she says nothing can be done, perhaps, maybe, well worth the time and effort if it is important to you and yours. That's my take not knowing all the ins and outs.

Have your Mom get medical POA if your Aunt does not already have it?

It's one Daughter against the other. You'd have to prove to a Judge why this should be taken away from your Auntie and given to anybody else , including your Mom. Seems from your post your Auntie has done nothing wrong. No judge is going to allow your mother and aunt to fight it out at the expense of your Grandmothers money. That money ( how ever much it maybe be ) is for her CARE and not for Attorney's FEE's to eat through it. I can't see any court changing this without a truly awful reason. POA is not the greatest job in the world Believe me. Plus families no longer stay that way when money is involved. GREED takes over and over. Take it from one who knows all to well. Do not kid yourself for one moment . Your Grand Mother may out live her money. We paid 10 grand a month for my Daddy's care and he was a Doctor himself. Now my Mummy is left okay but has ALZ and had to be put in a group home ( may 8 , 2013) all with in less than one year of my Daddy's passing. Growing older and sicker is very costly! To late to spell check ( forgive me ) . I wish you and your Family the Best. But this is about your Grand Mothers well being not any of YOU fighting for power over her MONEY. I'm sure if she has as much as you claim , you will all get your do share.

Consult an attorney of your own.