My Dad, who is not in his right mind, is verbally abusing my Mom, and is threatening to take all their money out of their accounts. What is the process?
If you could remove nearly all money to mom's account but promise dad some will be returned after he sees drs etc - that could be a return of 1% to 50% or more - these type of guys can be manipulated by the money - so no dr visit = no money - still have the automatic deposits sent to the joint account as always but make an automatic switch to her account on the deposit day until dad is evaluated as to how competent he is -
I would also ensure he had a small balance [$100 - 250] there but this means mom needs to be paying whatever bills accrue like insurance, mortgage, electric, gas etc - be aware of his credit cards & if joint there might be issues -
Talk to a bank official to be sure how to go from here - I'd personally tape the conversation with that bank officer so you can prove what they said to you & mom - just lay cell phone on desk in record mode - better to have it & delete [wait a bit for this] than wish later you had it - they sometimes change their minds & deny what was said ..... it's great world we live in now a days [????]
First of all, this is the danger of having all your funds in a joint account. As you should already understand, EITHER PERSON, can withdraw ANY AMOUNT, at will. Hint hint! Faced with this behavior, I would quietly help my mother establish her own individual accounts, and simply MOVE THE MONEY, out of reach of his control. I would say atleast one half. Or possibly all of it, if you are ready to involve the police, ADP, and seek an emergency protective order to clearly warn your father that his conduct is unacceptable.
Domestic violence is a real issue here, dementia or not. Your job is to protect the victim and reduce his leverage over her. It changes the power dynamic for YOU. It helps you protect your mother's resources while you get your father to agree to see (1) a doctor; (2) have a physical and psychological evaluation, (3) determine his competency to manage his own affairs. It is much easier if you can get voluntary cooperation to get here...but I don't think you are going to get it.
I know you said you mother is being verbally abused. But the moment this situation crosses into physical abuse, I would consider these options. Yes, it is heavy handed. Yes, it is sneaky. Yes, it is "interfering in their marriage".
There may already be a history of fights that have occurred long ago in the past...you won't know if you don't ask your mother directly. I have discovered in my work with seniors and talking to women who divorce in their 60s and 70s that physical abuse and financial abuse was a major component in the decision to first seperate, and subsequently divorce. It isn't an openly discussed topic and the person doing the abusing relies on the secrecy of a marriage, power, control , fear and shame, to reinforce keeping the situation quiet. Wives have often hid their husband's sins to protect his public reputation/position/ income.
I would at least take your mom with you to the bank and have the bank put a stop on the account to temporarily freeze it while you get an eldercare lawyer involved and maybe go for guardianship if you can handle that task. It sounds to me like someone will probably need to take emergency guardianship so the situation will need to be expedited. What I would do is take all of the money from the account and put it into a new account for her and let his check keep going into the old one, this is how I would handle it. If he wants to get greedy, that all the money should go to the wife. Who knows how long this is been going on but I can tell you I spot a narcissist from your description and one of the signs of a narc is cleaning out the bank account and not providing for the other spouse. If he wants to get greedy then take all the money and put it into a new account he can't access and only dispense money accordingly or not at all but just take over all of the financial matters altogether but make sure all the bills are paid from their money, and make sure all their other needs are met
Get your mom to put you [or another as she wishes] on any new account so you can help her later - get mom to do P.O.A. for future use -
Dad should be taken to E.R. for evaluation both physical & mental - video any time you see him abusive with your cell phone so there is concrete proof to show drs because sometimes they put on a real good show in public
I would get a thorough physical from his primary MD. The office can also recommend a social worker to help you find an elder law attorney but in the meantime the social worker can help to sort things out. This is not an uncommon situation and your Dad needs to be evaluated medically first. I would try and stay away from guardianship as you will have to answer to the courts...why should the courts be involved. The courts are expensive, intrusive and stressful. You might only need to have the DPOA in place...just a thought..
If both names are on the account you cannot remove either of them. You may have to open a new account, however remember that if a pension goes into that account only the owner of that pension can request a change and open an account in their name only.
A lawyer, I agree, just o make sure she does everything legally.
Is her name on the accounts, too. If so, seevif the bank will allow her to take out the money (or even half of it) and set up an account of her own. Many a spouse have gone to the bank and cleaned out accounts and left the other high and dry. Banks never question it if both names are on the acct.
If your Mom has dementia you do not want her to become POA for your Dad. It sounds like you will have to step in and become Guardian for both of them. (You or another member of the family) The last thing you need is for someone that has been diagnosed with any form of dementia to have POA or Guardianship of someone else. Has your Dad been checked? If this is a new "personality" that he is exhibiting that may be a change in his mental status as well. Or it could be that if he is caring for your Mom as well he my be stressed out, frustrated, angry. Caregiver burnout is common and even if he is not the primary caregiver watching your wife decline is not easy. Contact an Elder Care Attorney and begin Guardianship proceedings. I normally am the last one to suggest this because it can be time consuming process, fairly expensive due to having to go to court fairly often. (at least if there is money and property. Once there is no money nor property you become Guardian of the Person and not Guardian of the Estate and the Person. then there are fewer court appearances and you just have to file paperwork)
Bottom line ... do NOT let your Mom become POA. and with dementia she should not have access to bank accounts either.
ldphilippi, I see from your profile that your Mom has Alzheimer's/Dementia, is that correct? If yes, then it would be difficult for her to be anyone's Power of Attorney.
As Barb mentioned above, only your Dad can assigned your Mom to be his Power of Attorney but only if your Dad can understand legal documents. If not, then it is too late to get a Power of Attorney.
I also agree have Dad checked to see if he has an Urinary Tract Infection as that can cause an older person to be abusive. The family doctor can run the test, and yes, there is a cure.
I'm very sorry to hear about your dad's behaviour. I would try and call Adult Protective Services and see if a social worker can help you explore all your options to ensure your mom and dad's well being. I wonder if there has been a change in your dad's medication or mental or physical being that has caused this change in behaviour. I know its hard and I'm glad you are looking out for your mom.
I would also ensure he had a small balance [$100 - 250] there but this means mom needs to be paying whatever bills accrue like insurance, mortgage, electric, gas etc - be aware of his credit cards & if joint there might be issues -
Talk to a bank official to be sure how to go from here - I'd personally tape the conversation with that bank officer so you can prove what they said to you & mom - just lay cell phone on desk in record mode - better to have it & delete [wait a bit for this] than wish later you had it - they sometimes change their minds & deny what was said ..... it's great world we live in now a days [????]
Faced with this behavior, I would quietly help my mother establish her own individual accounts, and simply MOVE THE MONEY, out of reach of his control. I would say atleast one half. Or possibly all of it, if you are ready to involve the police, ADP, and seek an emergency protective order to clearly warn your father that his conduct is unacceptable.
Domestic violence is a real issue here, dementia or not. Your job is to protect the victim and reduce his leverage over her. It changes the power dynamic for YOU. It helps you protect your mother's resources while you get your father to agree to see (1) a doctor; (2) have a physical and psychological evaluation, (3) determine his competency to manage his own affairs. It is much easier if you can get voluntary cooperation to get here...but I don't think you are going to get it.
I know you said you mother is being verbally abused. But the moment this situation crosses into physical abuse, I would consider these options. Yes, it is heavy handed. Yes, it is sneaky. Yes, it is "interfering in their marriage".
There may already be a history of fights that have occurred long ago in the past...you won't know if you don't ask your mother directly. I have discovered in my work with seniors and talking to women who divorce in their 60s and 70s that physical abuse and financial abuse was a major component in the decision to first seperate, and subsequently divorce. It isn't an openly discussed topic and the person doing the abusing relies on the secrecy of a marriage, power, control , fear and shame, to reinforce keeping the situation quiet. Wives have often hid their husband's sins to protect his public reputation/position/ income.
Dad should be taken to E.R. for evaluation both physical & mental - video any time you see him abusive with your cell phone so there is concrete proof to show drs because sometimes they put on a real good show in public
Is her name on the accounts, too. If so, seevif the bank will allow her to take out the money (or even half of it) and set up an account of her own. Many a spouse have gone to the bank and cleaned out accounts and left the other high and dry. Banks never question it if both names are on the acct.
It sounds like you will have to step in and become Guardian for both of them. (You or another member of the family)
The last thing you need is for someone that has been diagnosed with any form of dementia to have POA or Guardianship of someone else.
Has your Dad been checked? If this is a new "personality" that he is exhibiting that may be a change in his mental status as well. Or it could be that if he is caring for your Mom as well he my be stressed out, frustrated, angry. Caregiver burnout is common and even if he is not the primary caregiver watching your wife decline is not easy.
Contact an Elder Care Attorney and begin Guardianship proceedings. I normally am the last one to suggest this because it can be time consuming process, fairly expensive due to having to go to court fairly often. (at least if there is money and property. Once there is no money nor property you become Guardian of the Person and not Guardian of the Estate and the Person. then there are fewer court appearances and you just have to file paperwork)
Bottom line ... do NOT let your Mom become POA. and with dementia she should not have access to bank accounts either.
As Barb mentioned above, only your Dad can assigned your Mom to be his Power of Attorney but only if your Dad can understand legal documents. If not, then it is too late to get a Power of Attorney.
I also agree have Dad checked to see if he has an Urinary Tract Infection as that can cause an older person to be abusive. The family doctor can run the test, and yes, there is a cure.
Mom could Sue to get guardianship, but it's a long and expensive process.
Did dad become abusive and deranged all of a sudden? Be aware that that might indicate a UTI.
I'm any event, if dad has had a sudden change in mental status, it should be reported to his doctor, or just get him to the ER.