You can do nothing a POA must be signed by someone who is deemed to have the capacity to do so. This is why EVERYONE who has a bank account should have a POA. Just in case. You will have to try a different route I am afraid or go through a lawyer
The same thing happened to me. I was really stunned. I think I had the form sent to put my name on the accounts. My mom signed. Did she know what she was signing? Maybe not. But my name is now on the accounts and I pay all of my mom's bills, do her taxes, and all of that. I am happy to be able to do it.
I believe that behind closed doors, a lot of signing goes on for the sake of practicality. My mom signed the papers to get herself into Al when she didn't want to go--but she was so confused she just signed. The person who brought her the papers knew that my mom didn't know what she was signing and felt bad about it but there was no other way!!! My mom, like so many others, was a complete mental and emotional wreck. (She is much better now with the correct meds but it took us a while to get there.) I can only say, thank God that there are people out there who are willing to bend the rules a tad to help.
My neighbor signed the mortgage to sell her parents house without a POA--this is to say that she forged their signatures. Was that wrong? Of course. But it was absolutely necessary. The parents, both with dementia and very frail, needed the money to go into AL. There was no other way.
Is this an isolated case? I doubt it very much. What do you think?
Salisbury I am sure absolutely sure it is not an isolated case but if there as been a diagnosis of mental incapacity and that diagnosis is dated there could be serious implications that could occur from that signature. As for forging a signature - I could not possibly agree that it is right to do so. the courts can appoint guardians/conservators there is no need to go through a duplicitous route which could end in prosecution. While understand the frustrations the alternative are not within the law.
At the same time, how frustrating is it to have my mom sign a POA back when she was in full mental health, only to have it ignored by the bank??????
I say, get the form, have her sign it whether she knows what it is or not and, as you say, ohJude, assuming there has been no dated diagnosis of incapacity, and get on with the business of taking care of her affairs.
I agree about practicality as well as the law. It's horribly frustrating for people who know that they are doing what is best for their parents only to be stopped by the fact that a simple document wasn't signed. It's never simple to know. The laws are there to protect the elderly from adult children or others who do not have the elders' best interest in mind. We all know that they are out there. However, most of us are just trying to get them through the best that we can. I think I'd have a an elder law attorney help because I'd be afraid of repercussions without it. But I agree that well meaning people "forge" the signatures all of the time. I was fortunate in that my parents had POAs signed early so I could sign checks with their name and mine underneath as POA. I've already done this for my kids.
I have to say that I had a horrible time closing out my parents' bank account after they died (it was empty). POAs are no good after death. Finally, a copy of the will did the trick. You'd think a death certificate would do it, but no. I needed more documentation. Finally, a copy of the will did the trick.
Good luck to all who have to fight with this issue, Carol
Before I got the POA , Social Security ( Mom had to go and give a change of address) made me payee of her check. I had explain to the lady mom had dementia. I took the copy of the letter from SS to the bank and had mom a new account made. I then on line transferred all her money into her new account, all but 5$. After awhile with no activity that account automatically closed.
Now the new account had my moms and my name with payee beside it. I had to keep all receipts and could only spend the money for my mothers needs, and part of grocery bill, utilities, since she lived with me and could share the expense. When doing the payee you are responsible for her money and will be audited once a year.
The POAs I have for my folks are notarized. Whitt7, is yours? The manager of the bank I use for managing their money came to their apartment to get their signatures when new POAs had to be drawn up. I used these forms for the IRS, which requires a form of their own to be filled out, in order to do their taxes. Social Security will not accept any POA. They want to have a named payee so they can oversee all monies being spent. I found it curious that the IRS would accept the POA but SS would not. All I wanted to do was to change the address from their apartment to my house so I could have all the 1099 forms come to me. The only way to do that, so I was told, is to have my parents call SS and ask to change their address. My mother can't hear very well, so that should be an interesting phone call. My dad gets easily confused, and while he could manage the phone call (I think), I haven't had it done yet. It has been suggested to me that I call and pretend I'm my mother (age 96) and a male call and pretend he's my dad (age 101). I'm not very comfortable with that, but I am quite concerned that my mother will throw the 1099 forms away.
Another POA issue that came up with me is that at the time my folks had their original POAs created I was not married. They had a CD that matured after I was married and changed my name. Bank of America would not accept the POA and my marriage license and driver's license as proof that I was permitted to act on my mother's behalf. So I had to bring my mother to the bank (they would not come to her) so she could sign the necessary paperwork to release the funds. She had just been released from rehab following a broken femur and was wheelchair bound, a very time consuming and uncomfortable trip. I told them I would no longer do any business with them.
Medicare did not give me any trouble about switching having their documents sent to an electronic account that I set up. No POA was required to do that. I wish the various government agencies would all have the same process.
Good luck working this out. And it may be time to change banks if you can.
I took my mother to her bank, with the Power of Attorney, and met with her Financial Advisor. We had to sign papers, and have them notarized. The Financial Advisor took care of the paperwork for all of my mothers portfolio. We are in New Jersey, and Power of Attorney is not notorzied in New Jersey. The Attorney's signature makes it legal. I also had to take POA to the County to have it recorded.
If you cannot afford an eldercare attorney and if your mom has been diagnosed by a doctor, you can try having the doctor sign something that indicates your mom has dementia. It might help at the bank if they know she cannot sign.
I'm in KY and my cousin looked it up online and pulled a POA form off and brought it to the hospital where we were, got dad to sign - only one he would trust enough to do it for, not even me, even though I'm the one he wanted to take care of his business but by that point he no longer understood the paperwork required; he'd wanted to do all this earlier when mom was still here but she wouldn't do it; then he - cousin - and wife - signed as witnesses, in lieu of it being notarized, which was legal and acceptable - however, all of this was done the day after the oncall doc at the hospital - not his regular doctor, who could not come to the hospital - had, at the hospital's behest, signed saying dad had dementia, so if we had been called into question, might have had a problem, and might have had, had I not been able to work with someone at their bank who had known them and so apparently felt comfortable working with me, since she at least knew I existed - I think I've that makes a big different if you already have a relationship with the their bank where they feel comfortable with you - so she accepted my POA - one thing I do think helped was that he had already put me on his checking account so this was mainly just for his other account(s)
Get the POA signed any way possible and get a joint account if you can. Unless you have evil siblings who would rather give it all to lawyers, it is probably unlikely anyone will try to show Mom was not capable of making the decision to sign the POA. Dementia is a continuum, and just having some level of it does not prove Mom cannot make a decision. But remember the legal system and justice are not related, so keep very good records of expenditures. We are fortunate enough to have a wonderful Credit Union who actually brought a notary to one of our parent's ALs (on a good day) when our out-of-state POA was not accepted.
My dad's POA was notarized. It gave me the power to do everything he would do. Open accts, close accts, sell property etc. Yet when I found out he thought he was signing divorce papers for my son and it was actually putting up his house as collateral for a line of credit for his business, the bank refused to recognize the POA. Dad was 92 at the time. Just last Wed I had the closing on his house. He's now in AL memory care. The bank states that since the doctor notes don't reflect dementia at the time of signing, the mortgage stood. I had to pay that mortgage off at closing. $73,000. Banks evidently are so protected that they can do anything they want. This is in NJ.
This is discontent: I am waiting for finality of my friend who passed on X-mas morning and am having to bring all documents to the bank for title change of property that was left to me by him. The trust and agreement, DPOA, Death Ceritificate, living trust are necessary to finalize any up coming issues. Do you have these documents notarized and signed by a paid attorney?
If your Mom has a Trust and a POA, see the Trust attorney and have him make you an active Trustee...solves a lot of problems. This is what my parents did with me early....I do a lot of their business for them without many problems.
I have POA for my Aunt. The bank was fine with POA UNTIL I wanted into her safety deposit box. Then they looked POA over and since it did not specifically say I had access to the box, they would not let me in. I had to go get my Aunt and bring her in to let me in. With her on the room I had to sneak her stuff out... She would have wanted to sell her items right away. That was fun. NOT!!
Well, that is unfortunate that the bank wants the person signing the document to then sign ANOTHER document saying that yes, I really did sign the first document. And will they want a third one proving the person actually signed the second document? As you can see, this is ridiculous. If the durable power of attorney was signed and notarized, that gives added proof that the signature was valid. A bank cannot be sued for relying on validly signed POA.
That's all well and good, but if indeed a bank refuses, what can you do? I have been at meetings with other attorneys who say "I advise my clients never to use Bank X because they always cause trouble with POAs," etc. But the average person has no idea of a bank's reputation in this regard and is thus at their mercy when the time comes to try to use a correctly prepared and signed POA.
Short of filing an expensive legal proceeding against the bank to force them to recognize the POA (precisely what you were trying to avoid in the first place by using a POA), you can have the attorney who prepared the document call the legal department and try to persuade them to accept it. Or say that YOU will sign a hold harmless provision that protects the bank if they act in reliance on the POA. Good luck!
Prior to her dementia did she sign any other documents relating to the usual medical determinations as a proof that you have had a prior decision making role. With the doctors proof of incompetence you should apply for a court order declaring her incompetent and be appointed her legal guardian.
I ran into this same problem with Wells Fargo. So I went to UPS who simply notarized the document (or whatever waiver they have) and changed banks. All the UPS people are doing is notarizing the signature, not the mental capability of the signer. Can your mother at least sign her name? Try that.
When a bank puts a hold on an account their computer will not allow any movement from that bank to another. The bank is only offering their client legal protection that can only be resolved by a court order to minimize their liability.
My uncle was on hospice and there was never a doctor who came out to make visits to check on my uncles health just a RN. So how could the DPOA get a letter stating that my uncle has dementia ?
I ran into the same problem with my bank. I simply went to a different branch of the same bank & they accepted my POA on my husband. Now my X husband & I am so grateful he is no longer my problem...
What I had to do for my mom's POA (in NJ) was to go to her lawyer who then produced a document for the bank stating that the original POA was still in full effect and had never been revised or revoked.
Had the same problem with Bank of America. Short of hiring an atty here's what I did. Raised h*ll with the bank manager of that branch. I have POA signed and notarised, proceeds to be used by me to pay mother's bills. However, I cannot get the funds to pay the bills for the ever loving bank putting a halt on withdrawals. Bank Manager, please understand what a POA is, and if you don't I'll explain it to you, again. And no, I'm not leaving your office. and Yes, you can and I wish you would, call security. Then I will phone the police and we all can have a nice little meeting. With the newspaper reporter also to put this story on the front page of the local paper. Meanwhile, ahem, let's get back to the definition of a POA.
Oh yes, they changed their computer to show me as a legal person to withdraw funds; however, you knew this was coming right? the computer failed to update the other computers so EVERY time I went to the bank I had another opportunity to sit down with the bank manager who had forgotten me and we started the process all over again. But I am relentless and persistent. I can out do them all. So patient person that I am would go in during the busy rush time on Friday afternoons when businesses bring in their money for deposits and they take a l-o-n-g time with the teller. and folks are getting payroll checks cashed, etc. etc. and the place is a zoo. That's when I walk in and refuse to leave the manager's office until he gives me the temporary go ahead to withdraw funds. Mean aren't I?
Padeeba, thanks for sharing your method of dealing with a bank with anti-customer standards. It's really an offensive bank, and has been for years, well before the 2008 financial crisis.
I'm going to use your technique if I ever have problems with a bank, although I dumped BofA for checking accounts years ago.
It does not help you now, but the easiest thing to do, earlier on, is make it a joint account in yours and your loved ones name. If you are paying their bills, as i did, it is a logical and easy solution. This was, in my case, done over the phone.
If your mom has already signed you need to file it with the courts its like 25dollars they will then take and put a sticker on it with a file number ect, this is what i had to do for the bank, you also need to make sure when she signed it was infront of a notary and make sure it say banks accounts as well, if she is still able to sign i would get a durable unlimted poa its does not exspire when she becomes incapacitated like a reg poa and i would do a health care poa as well, this will allow you to help with decisions on her care if ahe bwcomes incapacitated meaning unable to make her own dedecisions
Most people don't know that there is POA and DPOA (durable). It's also interesting that no siblings or spouses need be aware when a person/parent signs a POA/DPOA for any/one/or none of them.
I believe that behind closed doors, a lot of signing goes on for the sake of practicality. My mom signed the papers to get herself into Al when she didn't want to go--but she was so confused she just signed. The person who brought her the papers knew that my mom didn't know what she was signing and felt bad about it but there was no other way!!! My mom, like so many others, was a complete mental and emotional wreck. (She is much better now with the correct meds but it took us a while to get there.) I can only say, thank God that there are people out there who are willing to bend the rules a tad to help.
My neighbor signed the mortgage to sell her parents house without a POA--this is to say that she forged their signatures. Was that wrong? Of course. But it was absolutely necessary. The parents, both with dementia and very frail, needed the money to go into AL. There was no other way.
Is this an isolated case? I doubt it very much. What do you think?
At the same time, how frustrating is it to have my mom sign a POA back when she was in full mental health, only to have it ignored by the bank??????
I say, get the form, have her sign it whether she knows what it is or not and, as you say, ohJude, assuming there has been no dated diagnosis of incapacity, and get on with the business of taking care of her affairs.
I have to say that I had a horrible time closing out my parents' bank account after they died (it was empty). POAs are no good after death. Finally, a copy of the will did the trick. You'd think a death certificate would do it, but no. I needed more documentation. Finally, a copy of the will did the trick.
Good luck to all who have to fight with this issue,
Carol
Now the new account had my moms and my name with payee beside it. I had to keep all receipts and could only spend the money for my mothers needs, and part of grocery bill, utilities, since she lived with me and could share the expense. When doing the payee you are responsible for her money and will be audited once a year.
Another POA issue that came up with me is that at the time my folks had their original POAs created I was not married. They had a CD that matured after I was married and changed my name. Bank of America would not accept the POA and my marriage license and driver's license as proof that I was permitted to act on my mother's behalf. So I had to bring my mother to the bank (they would not come to her) so she could sign the necessary paperwork to release the funds. She had just been released from rehab following a broken femur and was wheelchair bound, a very time consuming and uncomfortable trip. I told them I would no longer do any business with them.
Medicare did not give me any trouble about switching having their documents sent to an electronic account that I set up. No POA was required to do that. I wish the various government agencies would all have the same process.
Good luck working this out. And it may be time to change banks if you can.
That's all well and good, but if indeed a bank refuses, what can you do? I have been at meetings with other attorneys who say "I advise my clients never to use Bank X because they always cause trouble with POAs," etc. But the average person has no idea of a bank's reputation in this regard and is thus at their mercy when the time comes to try to use a correctly prepared and signed POA.
Short of filing an expensive legal proceeding against the bank to force them to recognize the POA (precisely what you were trying to avoid in the first place by using a POA), you can have the attorney who prepared the document call the legal department and try to persuade them to accept it. Or say that YOU will sign a hold harmless provision that protects the bank if they act in reliance on the POA.
Good luck!
I simply went to a different branch of the same bank & they accepted my POA on my husband. Now my X husband & I am so grateful he is no longer my problem...
Oh yes, they changed their computer to show me as a legal person to withdraw funds; however, you knew this was coming right? the computer failed to update the other computers so EVERY time I went to the bank I had another opportunity to sit down with the bank manager who had forgotten me and we started the process all over again. But I am relentless and persistent. I can out do them all. So patient person that I am would go in during the busy rush time on Friday afternoons when businesses bring in their money for deposits and they take a l-o-n-g time with the teller. and folks are getting payroll checks cashed, etc. etc. and the place is a zoo. That's when I walk in and refuse to leave the manager's office until he gives me the temporary go ahead to withdraw funds. Mean aren't I?
I'm going to use your technique if I ever have problems with a bank, although I dumped BofA for checking accounts years ago.
the DPOA addresses healthcare issues.