How can I approach my Dad about his gambling?

Dustien, it sounds like you've done all you can for the time being. Maybe set it aside for now, knowing that there will come a time where your brother and SIL can be 'reimbursed' for all of their effort and sacrifice.

What is he saving his other assets for? Does he expect to take them with him? Does he expect to live forever? Or is it all going to wind up going to you guys anyway? Make sure he realizes that none of you want your SIL to subsidize your inheritance with upaid work. You know that if he hired the work done by an outsider your potential inheritance would be depleted and you don't think it should be any different just because she loves him.

The notion of the other chipping in to pay for Dad's care would be perfectly appropriate IF the poor man couldn't afford his care. Since he has plenty of money it is ridiculous to treat him like a charity case.

I hope he comes around.

I there any outsider he might listen to more than a family member? Clergy? A banker? A buddy?

And I made that comment only so that you could tailor your next chat with him with the recognition that he isn't going to give up gambling easily, if he can at all.

But it is good to see that you're moving forward. I hope the next discussion moves everyone closer to a solution.

Garden, Good point. As I was writing that post about Grandpa being an alcoholic the same dawned on me too. It might come into play as something to point out to Dad if he the need comes up. I will certainly keep it in mind, and I suspect you're very right. Although he seemed to avoided making Grandpa's mistakes most of his life, he appears to have slipped into an addictive behavior that also could have serious consequences if not controlled.

Jeannie, I should have pointed out that even though I'm POA, he pays his bills. Most are set up on autopay and the ones that aren't he writes checks for and my brother helps him keep track of what needs to be paid. All his money is in a revokable trust with both he and I as co trustees. I really can't do anything without his permission though, since if I touched his money without consulting him first, he'd go balistic and probably revoke my POA to boot. My paying SIL is out of the question. So the problem has always been how to get him to pay her.

The only way I saw to do that was to tell him that my older brother and I had discussed it and he really needed to pay SIL and that's why I was concerned he was going to look at me as the bad guy.

As POA I'm his "trusted" adviser...he usually has deferred to my advice, but he's already mad at my older brother over money (unjustly so). My pushing another issue where he's going to have to have more money going out, might push him over the edge where he'll be mad at me too, also unjustly so. At his age he doesn't seem to see the justice in it all Im afraid.

So the issue wasn't between paying my SIL or Gambling...it was refusing to pay my SIL while gambling which I felt was going to be the issue. I was prepared not to bring up the gambling at all if he agreed to pay SIL. However, it turned out just as I thought. He insisted he didn't have enough money coming in monthly to pay SIL since he already was paying 700.00 - 800.00 mo for his utilities, groceries and gas for his car and his funds in the bank were tied up in stocks and money market funds. That's when I felt I needed to bring up the gambling. I wanted him to know that I knew he was spending that much playing the slots each month! I told him that if he insists he only wants to use what he has coming in monthly, then he needed to take the money he's spending on gambling and pay it to Debbie instead. I was nice about it and really have dad's best interests at heart. We all do. And even though I'm sure dad knows that, he's now mad at me, as I suspected he probably would be. I just hope he get's over it soon, sees that he really does need to pay SIL but that he can do both, but it's going to require his getting into his bank accounts to do it.

Good job!

Thanks for the update. I do think that sometimes elders in need of care can be penny wise and pound foolish. I think there's also the expectation that taking care of elders is just expected as part of being in the family.

Glad you stood your ground - good for you!

But you did mention something that I feel compelled to address - grandfather was an alcholic, father is a gambler...both are addictive behaviors, yet the people engaging in them typically don't feel they're addictive.

Perhaps that will help when you approach him again, although I don't really have any suggestions on how other than to recognize that he doesn't see his gambling as addictive or a waste of money.

Still, you're making progress and I'm glad for you.

I don't know why that first part of the post above ran into one looooong paragraph when it was made up of at least 3 or 4 smaller ones. Sorry about that. I hate reading giant run on paragraphs!

Well...talked to dad. He, as expected, was not happy. I was ready to not mention the gambling, but when I told him he needed to seriously consider paying Brother and SIL at least 1500.00/mo he insisted that he already paid them 800.00/mo for bills, so he should only need to pay them 700.00 more. I explained that the 1500.00 needed to be paid separate from his bills, since his bills only covered his keep, not all they were doing for his care. He then insisted he didn't have enough coming in monthly to pay both. I told him he had money in the bank he could draw from but he said he didn't want to have to sell any stock or get into his money market savings and he started getting angry. That's when I brought up the fact that he could have enough coming in from his monthly income if he cut way back on his gambling. He said that his gambling was his business and none of mine. I agreed with him, and told him none of us want to try to make him quit gambling...just that we all feel that he needs pay SIL and brother for all they are doing for him, and that he has plenty of assets with which to do it, and still be able to gamble. So he said one solution was that he, my older brother, and I should all split the cost of his care because Justice and Debbie were doing all the work and we didn't have to do anything. He then brought up that he and mom took care of our Grandpa for 15 years and the only thing grandpa could pay for was his share of the groceries and they had to pay for everything else. That's when I reminded him that was because Grandpa had been an alcoholic all his life and had no money. That if grandpa had thousands in the bank, he knows good and well he and mom would have expected him it to use some to pay for the care they gave him, especially since he would otherwise use a good portion of it to go barhopping (substitute gambling)! I explained that we all loved him and wanted him to have the best care he could, and that was with my brother and SIL...that he's loved there, but that, if he doesn't start paying them, the increasing care he's needing is going to begin to take it's toll on everyone. Money doesn't guarentee it's going to get any easier, but money does alleviate some of the burden...she could hire a housekeeper, a gardener (she doesn't have time to do much of either now) and maybe buy herself something nice now and then. It will go a long way to helping her feel appreciated, even though you tell her so.

He started shutting down when he saw that I was sticking to my guns about paying her since he had no good reason not to and a score of good reasons he should. I knew it was time to wrap it up for the time being and let him think on it. I told him to give it some serious thought and that I'd call him in a few days.

I'm just glad he didn't hang up on me, and I hope it sinks in and he remembers the conversation...most of it anyway. I didn't get any guarantees that he's going to start paying, but he knows how we all feel now. The ball is rolling....

Really, what is with old people and gambling? I had never been in a casino and last year I was at a horse show in Tunica with friends. The casinos have great buffets, so we decided to go to a casino and eat. I could not believe it, but the majority of people at those machines were seniors. Some were in wheelchairs and many were using those portable oxygen tanks in that smoke filled room!! Many were actually playing 3 machines at once. They would sit at one and play the machines on each side of it. It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad.

Dustien, I recall that a professional acquaintance outfitted with plenty of money set up a small gambling section in his basement. There were 3 slot machines, which he invited guests to play.

So somewhere someone can buy a slot machine for home use.

Have SIL tape or video some of the background sounds, play them for Dad, get some flashing lights, and create your own little casino. If you can convince him to recycle his winnings, so much the better.

Dustien I'm still not quite understanding the problem, or why you fear you may be risking your relationship with your father. He is financially sound. You feel he has enough money to support himself until he is at least 95. But the recent visit to the doctor makes it sound like he isn't going to live to anything near 95. So why is it either/or about paying for his care or his gambling? Surely he can afford both for the limited time he has left.

You are the POA. You handle paying his bills, do you? So pay your SIL and your neice. Let him continue gambling. If this does go on more than a few years, sell the house he will never return to.

So the real problem, apparently, is that he will feel betrayed if you point out to him that caregivers get paid and he should pay his. You don't want him mad at you. Is that what it boils down to?

"Dad, Brother and Brother and I have been discussing how to ensure your continued good health and happiness. What if something happened that SIL could not look after you? So just as a contingency plan we looked into what it costs to bring a caregiver into the home. Well, we all hope that will never be necessary, but the more we thought about it, the more it seems to us fair that SIL be paid something for the time and effort she puts in on your behalf. You can afford to pay her, and if it means there is a little less for us all to inherit someday, hey we all want to do what is fair."

Don't drag his gambling into it at all.

It may be that as time passes he will be less able to go on gambling outings anyway. As the dementia progresses he may not remember what his assets are and you will have to make those decisions anyway. Don't borrow trouble from the future. At this moment he can afford both paying for his care and enjoying himself. Deal with the future when it gets here.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck. Certainly don't jeopardize your own relationship with him. But I hope you can find a way to help him do the fair thing.

Vegas Lady, I'm sure you are right, that dad does have dementia, but without a Dr. saying so, it's going to be a fight if I have to take him to court to get control. At times he can fool anyone into thinking he's alright...but he's clearly not.

Countrymouse, my SIL has not worked outside the home for many years. So I can't say that she's giving up a possible income... but I can say she's going to begin resenting dad for spending all that money gambling when she's spending all her time with him and not being able to do for the rest of the family or pursue her own interests that money he should pay her is only going to be half of what he'd pay someone from outside to do the same, but it's going to go a long way toward making her feel what she does is valuable to him, at least as valuable to him as playing the slots at the casino!

Glad...you right right about all the suggestions. I'll keep them all in mind as I approach him on this. I'm just now waiting for my Brother to call me to let me know he's in a frame of mind that I can talk with him and hit him up with this. He needs to be pretty clear headed, or he won't even remember we talked!

No facilities in Texas that has slots close to where he lives...he has to go to Louisiana To gamble. A slot machine for his room would be a good idea, but I think he'd only play it if he thought he could win money from it and I'm not sure we could convince him of that.

Dusty, difficult situation. You have been offered many suggestions here that you have tried already. I, for one, don't know what else to offer, I sure do

Dusty, I sure don't know what to offer that hasn't been suggested here. It seems as if you have tried everything. Maybe there is a facility that has slot machines available? Or, You could always buy him one for his room.

Ooo, I see. Very tricky. Very delicate diplomatic mission you have there.

The thing is, this is what the message boils down to: "Dad, caring for you takes DIL xx hours per week and is mentally and physically exhausting and stops her being able to use her time either to work or to contribute to the house in other ways. I.e. you are a burden, and you should be paying compensation to her for that."

Clearly, that's not how you put it! But that is, in fact, the message you need to get across to him. And however nicely you phrase it, it's not something anybody would enjoy acknowledging, is it?

Now suppose, just hypothetically, that DIL was offered her dream job. Paying $xx(x?!) an hour, with a pension plan, and health care, and promotion prospects - the perfect job. And suppose it took her away from the home for, say, fifty hours per week. What would it cost to delegate that time to another caregiver? Even if you set aside things like danger money and unsocial hours - the additional stress of the 24/7 responsibility that she has - at least that could give you a baseline figure to put to him, maybe? One that could make sense to him in terms of her time's cash value in the employment market. I don't know if you think something like that might be a more palatable way for him to look at it.

But to be honest, looking again at the way your SIL is managing, don't you wonder how long she can carry on? She's going to need help with him sooner rather than later, surely - at which time paying for care is something your father will have to accept needs to happen.

I don't think his doctor needs to test him for dementia...from you just described, he's already there.

Jeannie, you are right. I probably asked the wrong question...it should have been how do I get my dad to pay my sis in law and brother for their care of him, even if it means he has to give up some of his gambling. I don't mean to try to make him stop gambling ..it's is his right, his hobby, and he's earned the money he is spending. I just know the gambling is going to have to come into play as he will see our insisting he pay for his care as asking him to give up either some of his stock assets or give up his gambling money, or do a bit of both .

We will be sure to start documenting any expenses he takes on paying my brother and SIL for his care. I can't image his ever needing medicaid, but I suppose if he lives to be 95+ and nursing home costs are double what they are now, he certainly could.

Ba8alou... I'm pretty sure dad's gambling isn't any of the side effects of his current medications. I don't go with Dad to the docs, as I'm out of state, but my SIL goes with him every time. Although he thinks he can, he can no longer drive. He's just not there enough to be able to drive safely.

My Sis in law asked his Dr. yesterday about testing for Dementia. The Doctor said she won't put him though that since she feels that his heart is going to give out long before dementia becomes a real problem. She feels his heart disease is so advanced that he doesn't have much time left unless he were to completely change his eating and exercise habits, which he's not going to do. My sis in law is concerned the gambling and going out to dinner at the golden corral afterwards is the only thing that's keeping him hanging on.

Country Mouse... My brother works more then full time and has 3 acres to care for when he get's home, so game playing isn't an option, except on the weekends when they do things with DAD. My brother refuses to gamble, so on weekends my dad doesn't even attempt to go gambling. They do play games on the weekends though, mostly horseshoes as he loves doing that. He's pretty close to the stakes since he doesn't have much muscle strength, but he's good from there and beats everyone a fair share of the time. When he loses, he's a poor sport, so they often times let him win. Playing on the weekend doesn't help though, since as soon as Monday comes along, my dad is clammering at my SI, asking when they can leave for the casino. My SIL does play cards (War, 2 person Rummy) with dad, but there's not a lot of games that's fun for two people.

As for paying rent, groceries and utilities, he does pay his share of those bills. It's paying my sis in law for her time that's needed here. She has no time to herself, and is killing herself trying to be there 24/7 for him. Even when he's asleep she can't let her guard down for a minute. He doesn't sleep well and is up wondering around two to three times a night. She even caught him trying to open the back door at 3 in the morning and he had no idea why he was there when she stopped him and put him back to bed, after getting him to empty his catheter bag, which she has to do many times a day because he forgets.. She deserves to be paid beyond paying for his rent, utilities and groceries. I only hope I can get him to see that.

D

Dustien, I'm sure you know this better than I do: that as your father's POA you have first to protect his best interests, and then, as long as that's done, to assist him in living as he has always chosen to do and would choose to do if he were still competent to make his own decisions.

As long as his gambling does not cause his monthly outgoings to exceed his income, well then - however counterintuitive it seems - you are correct to let him visit the casino. Your SIL actually *taking* him there might be a bit above and beyond, but you certainly shouldn't stop him - and if she goes too then at least she can keep some sort of eye on him.

My ex-husband's grandma, bed-bound for forty years (long story, medical boo-boo, don't ask), was as happy as a sand boy with her horse racing on the tv, her Cognac, her Sobranie Cocktails (she didn't like the yellow ones) and her direct line to her bookmaker. She made a modest profit, too, until the very end. As Roald Dahl put it: "…which proves that gambling's not a sin, provided that you always win."

Hm. The only fly in the ointment for me, with your father, is that the tantrums and the upset when he can't go… well, they say "addiction." That's more of a worry. But the thing about THAT is, if he is addicted, then it isn't something a loving amateur can cope with and you will need to call in expert reinforcements. No matter how carefully you "approach" him about it, if he really is addicted you're not going to get anywhere and you'll just upset him. Don't despair - it still doesn't matter as long as it's not harming his welfare - but if I were you I'd be looking ahead at strategies for when he's no longer able to gamble simply because he doesn't have sufficient cognitive function or is losing too heavily, whichever comes sooner.

Does your brother or any of the family like card games, backgammon, mah jong, even Monopoly? How about introducing betting games at home, where he can't do any harm because it is, literally, only Monopoly money he's playing with? Maybe you could bring in friends or neighbours to give it more authenticity. It could even turn into family entertainment..!?

The point about your father feeling hurt if you raise the idea of his paying rent and care costs to your brother's family: well. Your father may have earned his right to be cared for by his family, yes, if he and they both like to see it that way. But that doesn't pay for the rent, the utilities, the groceries or the chargeable time, because those are about $ and not about love and reciprocity. He'd have to pay his living and health care expenses wherever he was, and he's probably still astute enough to acknowledge that part. What he gets free, on top of his living expenses, is the warmth and comfort of having his family around him. It's not rent, it's him paying his share of the household costs - otherwise he's freeloading, and I can't believe he'd like that idea.

Dustien, what medications is your dad on besides Coumadin? I heard an npr report recently about an anto Parkinson s drug that sometimes triggers an uncontrollable urge to gamble. Do you go with dad to dr appts? Id dad on antidepressants? Perhaps the would help?

Dustien, he can afford the gambling and eating out -- I wouldn't worry about it. What if he went to much more expensive restaurants and spend that much each month just eating out? What if he loved opera or symphony concerts or live plays and spent that much per month on that kind of entertainment? How about a couple of guided bus excursions per month? Why shouldn't he choose the kind of entertainment he wants? Since he can afford it, I don't see why you need to confront him about it at all. Keep an eye on it, of course, so the amount doesn't escalate, but I see no reason to deprive him of what he likes and can afford.

What I think you do need to confront him about is paying for his care. He can afford it. He absolutely should not expect anyone else to treat him like a charity case. Do draw up an official agreement spelling out what he is paying and what he is getting. If there comes a point when family can no longer do this there will be a huge sticker shock of paying the actual going rates, but at least he's got a chance now to break into paying for care gently.

It sounds like the family is united about this. Wonderful! Make sure Dad knows that.

It is also wonderful that Dad will be able to pay his own way for some time to come. There is always the possibility of catastrophic expenses that no one can anticipate and therefore always the possibility of the need for Medicaid. Let's hope not. But keeping records and having things in writing is just good practice whether he ever needs to apply for financial help or not.

These casino's don't give Buffet comps to normal players. To those that spend thousands I'll bet they do, but nothing's ever offered to my dad according to my SIL.

There's no doubt that gambling makes him feel good. There's so little that makes him feel good that we dont' mind a bit of moderate gambling...but we do think 1400 a month when he's not paying my SIL a thing. He even wants half her winnings if she has any since he gave her the money to gamble with. Forget the fact that she's giving up two days a week of her life to take him gambling in the first place!

I'm confronting him sometime in the next few days and I'm afraid it's not going to go smoothly. I'll let you all know how things go.

The sounds, lights etc are triggering endorphins that make him feel good. Same with addictive computer games. Millionaires sign humongous IOUs in Vegas. It will often make the news when they go after a "whale" to make good on his markers. Recreational gambling can become addictive. I know a CPA who became addicted and embezzled $275k from a client of 20 years. It sounds like the family is watching what is going on and dad is apparently limiting himself. Shouldn't he be getting a buffet comp at the casino instead of paying for Golden Corral? If you guys want the money he now uses for the recreation you are okay with, you'll just have to ask him for it.

Ismiami, It's nice to know someone else's father was doing the same, taking weekly outtings to gamble. I do hope I can get him to cut back on the gambling, maybe once every 5 days rather then twice a week? Thanks for the post. ;-)

God Bless you and your family. This is a challenge, but at least you are able to look at it and try to work on it as a family.
My dad was ok financially, not super rich, but OK, including the very real possibility on my mother out living him. Weekly outings to the casino gave him something to look forward to..... So few interactive things he could still do. Maybe cut back on the gambling, not necessarily cut it out. Definately, get an agreement and get SIL paid and get her help.

Best of luck to you

Thank all of you for your comments and help. This site is great for helping us who are helping our elder loved ones know we're not alone.

In answer to all the good thoughts and advice:

Pam, good point about dad's house, but fortunately dad's house is paid for & he doesn't have the where with all to place a lien on it from out of state, thank goodness. So that's not a worry.

Gladimhere- Dad uses a wheel chair when he's at the casino so we dont' worry about his falling. He's quite adept at wheeling himself from the various machines.

As for a caregiver's agreement, we will definitly get one of those signed, mainly because dad just might forget he agreed to pay them and we're back at square one. I'm also hoping he can get some sort of tax break if we have a contract...this might help convince him.

We've discussed the medicaid look back policy, but we don't think that will ever become an issue. My dad has a small nursing home insurance policy as well as a healthy monthly income with his pension and social security and a decent savings. Together it should be enough to pay any nursing home fees if he should need to go into one in the next 5 years or so. Most likely he'll never be at the point that he'll be eligible for medicare funds.

We are very fortunate in that he has enough money to cover his care since I know that's not the case in most incidents. We just need to get him to realize he needs to be using some of that money to pay SIL and niece. I agree, the 1500.00 we are talking about dad paying is a pittance when compared with what an in-home health professional would cost, but my dad isn't going to see it that way.

vegaslady - I do suspect he's addicted to the loud noises and the bright colors of the penny slots... no buddies, no pretty girls, doesn't even order drinks (an occassional coffee maybe). He's got the money so he doesn't have to sign IOU vouchers, so I'm not worried about that. He's so tight with his money otherwise so I don't think he'd do that even if he could. I doubt he knows that there are casinos that would even have such a practice. Fortunately he's not in Nevada!

A lot is about the fact that this gives him a fund time out two days a week. It takes an hour to get there, he's there about 2 hours, then goes out to the Golden Corral (where the doctors have told him not to go cause he eats all the wrong things) and take a hour and a half to eat and then sleeps all the way home.

He gives SIL 30.00 to gamble with each time they go. She doesn't like gambling so she easily makes the money last. She often tucks half away to give herself some spending money since he doesn't pay her, and then spends the other half. When she runs out she just wonders around and watches other's play.

I know he's spending close to 1400.00/mo on gambling and eating out because at the first of every month he writes himself a check for cash in that amount (I have access to his accounts online to keep an eye on them). He writes checks to pay his expenses to my brother and and uses his debit card for about everything else, so this money is mainly for him to use on his gambling days.

Believe me, a game on the computer won't compensate for what he's getting on these two days out. He hates the computer, actually. That was my mom's thing, but never my dads. There's just nothing to replace these trips in the small town my brother in law lives in.

Linda22...the one bright spot in all this is that we kids all love my dad and are 100% behind my brother and sis in law in their care of him. I do wish we could stop the gambling, but I can't blame my sis for taking him. It is his bright spot in an otherwise miserable life, as bad as it is. We just want him to ALSO take care of his obligations to my brother and SIL! There's the biggest problem...and it's my job to get him to do just that!

Just a word on the gambling. It can easily become addictive, especially if he's playing slots or video poker. If he's such a regular he may be signing IOUs to the casino for credit. In NV those are enforced like a bad check if not paid timely. What is the enabler doing while he gambles? Gambling herself? Does he pay for her gambling too? Anyhow, what is it about the gambling that is rewarding his brain? Is he enjoying hanging with the old guys at the sports book? Does he like the attention of a pretty dealer? Is he getting reinforced by the machines? Could you replace that with Candy Crush on the computer at home? Find out what bells are being rung for him in the gambling experience and replace it with something less costly. Again, don't overlook the influence of the one who helps feed the need.

Just want to say that it's really nice to read about siblings who are working together for their parent. Your SIL is so fortunate to have sibs who recognize that she's going above and beyond, and who want to support and help her.

Dust,
You say Dad is unstable, yet SIL takes him gambling? Not the best of environments for someone with difficulty walking. Paying SIL and brother $1,000.00 a month is a pittance, as is $500.00 for overnights compared with the cost of home care or agency caregiving. Before anybody is paid you need a care agreement in place or Medicaid will look on these payments as gifts and require a penalty period equal to the gift amounts prior to becoming effective. Hopefully, his share of the bills are not being paid to SIL and brother, if so you need to fix this immediately.

Dustien, do a credit check on Dad if you can. You may find massive credit debt and a lien on the home up north. If that is the case, pursue Guardianship.

I'm afraid there's no answer other then to confront him. If he refuses, then I may have to do the unthinkable and take him to court and have myself declared his guardian. If I do I know he's going to hate me for life if I do, but things can't go on as they are. It's just not fair to my brother and sis in law.

I guess I just needed to vent! Thanks for trying to help GardenArtist.