Anyone ever bait the person you are caring for?

btw, I meant you as caregiver baiting the person you are caring for.

Your profile says that your mom has age related decline. Has she ever been evaluated for dementia?

I ask this, because your exchange with her reminds me of my relationship with my mom from several years ago. We've never really gotten along. She started having frequent panic attacks. We moved her to a nice independent living facility to see if she could get stronger and perhaps return home. We would have exchanges like the one you mentioned, completely illogical. The geriatric psychiatrist who was seeing her for the panic attacks encouraged me to take her for a neuropsych assessment. The diagnosis was Mild Cognitive Impairment, which is not dementia, but DOES mean that the elder's reasoning ability is shot. It made me understand where the illogical was coming from.

So for example, she was running out of hydrocortisone cream that she used for an itching rash she sometimes gets. We go to Bed. Bath and Beyond and of course they've changed the packaging. So I find a tube of the same product she has and she grabs a tube of Gold Bond cream which doesn't have cortisone in it. I show her what I have and she says "but this one says anti itch". "But it hasn't got the right ingredient mom". She looks at me blankly and says "but it says anti itch". That's when I realized that I was dealing with a 6 year old, in many respects , and it helped me to adjust my expectations.

Mom is a mixed bag nowadays. She has not been evaluated, in many ways she is still very sharp. However, the 'stupidity' factor, she has played stupid in the past as a form of passive-aggressive manipulation and some of this 'stupidity' falls into the same category. I have lived with her long enough, she raised me, so I recognize the manipulation aspect of some of the 'stupid'. One of the reasons I will occasionally bring up the same subject, only hand it back to her.

The only recourse for illogical conversations that works for me is to walk away instead of entertaining the delusions.
That is because the temptation to be mean because of frustration is too great.
Yes, I too have been mean, I would rather be nice, calm, and whatever!!!!

Um. I was never the sweetest tempered or kindest person in the room when it came to my mother; but one thing I did do to make myself hold my tongue was imagine someone else speaking to her in the way I was tempted to. And if I knew that I would take that imaginary person outside and box her ears, then that helped me to shut my big mouth.

I know it's tempting to go Through The Looking Glass and join in the craziness, but what this boils down to, when you think about it, is mockery. Don't do it. Well, try not to, anyway. We're none of us angels.

There ought to be a class on communicating with the cognitively declining. You can't use logical fact/naked truth as you could before. You need to keep them calm more than be right unless it's a matter of safety. You find yourself down the rabbit hole, having an unbirthday as the March Hare runs around you. It's surreal.

The biggest thing I learned was to give an answer that would be ok right now. As adults we learn to answer each other with way more data in the answer than someone in decline needs.

The other thing was to keep it simple. Too much, too long, and too complicated means there will be a problem. This is hard if the person was used to getting very detailed answers and had you trained.

The use of "I don't know", "the doctor said", "the government said", and "the insurance company said" are magical motivators or even defusers. It seems like often, we are the least credible people there are, even if we are 70.

Also, "I suppose you're right". And" I'll look into that "

Babalou, I have similar conversation with my Mom regarding products where the company had changed the packaging. My Mom goes one step further, she knows the last few digits of the product code, so if that is different than it's not the right product.

Like Lean Cuisine has updated their frozen dinner products from white background packaging to black background packaging. Oh my gosh. It's been a challenge.

I try to operate on the 'regret minimization' theory. Do whatever will cause me the least regret in the future. So I do as much as I can to treat my mother well, so that I don't kick myself later. Might try looking at your actions through that lens to see if it helps.

Bringing up her errors will only fuel her resentment. Try to avoid that if you can. If you are snarky, she will get really pixelated.

oh she gets pixelated all right. again, much of what she does, she has done when she was way younger so I do not think it is all age related. little princess does not get her own way all the time.

Hmmm I have my snarky head on right now Im afraid. But because I am British I need to ask what you actually mean by baiting - if you mean that you deliberately set out to annoy or taunt her then quite frankly you deserve all you get and then some - that's actually quite cruel. If however you mean that you end up passing a comment that you just couldn't hold on to then that's not as deliberate and while not the best thing to do we have all done it.
So, my 2cents for what they are worth is if you are doing it deliberately to hurt then thats callous and vile;if it emerges then rest your mind and try not to do it next time.

Yes, I deserved being shut in a suitcase when I was about 2 1/2. So, I deserved having to sit for hours listening to her b*tch at me, tearing me down. Just so she could get her rocks off.
She has definitely improved, she does not do these things anymore, However, the deliberate stupidity as part of manipulation, control, that she has already done, so doing it now I think is still part of this complex. So I ask her the same question with the same illogical bent. It clears the air. So, I deserve it? On behalf of all children shut in suitcases, bitched at, shown up and undercut by a mom who's in it for self aggrandizement? thank you.
Yeah, I was a horrible child, right??

I don't know anyone who's snarky to a loved one they're caring for. Perhaps it's time for you to move on.

I just started reading the comments. Interesting how many of us used "snarky".

Twocents, you have been damaged by the person you are required to care for. Not many can do that, and must protect themselves from re-experiencing those emotions at all costs. Any doctor would recommend you excuse yourself from this obligation (f you need a doctor's note), and save your sanity.
There exists a temptation too great for you to act out on the past, even if in the present your mom has changed. If she has, then great for her. Still not good for you though. You don't have to continue to torture yourself in this way, risking you will torture her secretly in return. You and her do not deserve to live that way. Ideally, you would get care for your mom and not actually be her caregiver. You can find forgiveness towards your mother once you have set yourself free. Counseling helps, sometimes.
NOW, is there anything stopping you? How can we help, really? I am guessing you are not really snarky, or you would not have asked your question in the first place, sensing that something was wrong. Take care (of the little girl inside of you).

My reaction to this is that other than bipolar disorder and other problems, I'm in better health than someone with dementia. I don't like being baited now and I would like it even less when I get older.


I've basically read over this thread and several others from the past. I'm tired tonight and I may have missed completely by what you mean by bait the person you are caring for.

It does sound that you have been so deeply injured by your mom that I think any therapist worth their salt would tell you not to involve yourself in the direct hands on care of your mother both for your sake and for yours.

For some reason the word "baiting brings up images of Pavlove's dog and my giving my lab treats in training him. Honestly, the treats are bait but praising the dog for doing the right thing along with giving them the treat helps with both the training process and one's relationship with a dog like a lab which are very loving and quite smart.

You didn't deserve what you experienced as a child or now as an adult child, plus she's not going to change by you doing so much for her and suddenly become Marry Popinns. I think you may benefit from asking yourself what's the bait that is keeping you stuck there?

I have to agree with others who went into greater depth about why twocents needs to be snarky. twocents you need to heal, maybe you could step back and let someone else care for her, because if you go on like this, when she dies you will find your pain multiplied by tenfold, with deep regrets.

First, let me start by saying, wow, after a childhood like that, I have to give you some major kudos for even making an *attempt* at caring for your Mom. I didn't have all the material things in life that my friends had & money was usually tighter than tight but I did have 2 parents who loved me & *showed* me their love & there have been times that I've resented giving up my middle-age, my career & my freedom to care for Mom and, yes, there have been times I've been snarky or even "baited"/thrown her own words back at her. So, if I had all that love as a child & still have been occasionally guilty of these things, I think it's *more* than understandable why it has been a temptation for you. I'm not saying it's any more *right* for me to do it or you to do it to her, but I can understand where you're coming from. That said, I do think the others are right...for your own sanity & possibly even your own legal SAFETY, it might be best for you to take a less involved role in your Mom's direct care. I'm not saying that you would ever purposefully raise your hand to her, but what if she pushed your buttons just a little too hard one day & you snapped? Do you really want to let the woman who stole your childhood from you also steal your adulthood & freedom? She is obviously not worth going to jail over! If you still feel some obligation to provide or care for her, maybe it's best if you allow someone else to live with her or do the physical care while you do things like manage her legal & financial affairs, pick up groceries for her, make certain her medications are getting refilled at the appropriate times & pick them up for her at the pharmacy.

I do want to ask the others, though...you say you just walk away to avoid feeding delusions. Every time I try that with my 84 yr old mother w/dementia, it just serves to tick her off. She starts screaming at me to come back & answer her...even if I've answered her 5 times already. I've also tried just agreeing with her & THAT ticks her off because she says I'm just patronizing her or she's mad that I don't have my own opinion. Is there some other "technique" to walking away that I'm not doing right & that's why she gets mad?

naw, don't do the bait game....just take a deep breath, and remember someday YOU will be the one in need of a loving caregiver. Would you want someone to "bait" you?

Does it make you feel better when you can be snarky to your mother? Does that feel like getting revenge for what's she's done to you? It doesn't often work that way. I think you should not be taking care of this woman directly.

I think you were baiting us a bit. You ask about baiting a person you are caring for. When someone expresses the opinion that that is not a good thing to do, then you jump in with the details you held back -- that you were abused as a child. Then you could get all self-righteous. Did that feel good?

I suggest therapy for you, to help you heal from your lousy childhood, and I definitely suggest that you not be a hands-on caregiver for your mother.

OzarkOlly, you may have to accept that it is not your job to ensure mother never gets ticked off. Sure, we'd all like our loved ones to be even-tempered and happy all the time, but it may be too much to ask or expect of someone who has dementia.

You might want to start a separate post on this topic, and explain with some examples what you need help with

2 cents like I said at the outset I wasn't sure whether baiting had the same meaning over there. I stand by my words however and I am fairly sure they will make you angry but they truly are not intended to.

It will serve no purpose in YOUR life to do what you are doing - this is not pay back - this is rise above that. I can see from your writing that you are not naturally that sort of person - I also know the desire to lash out when the darkness visits you - for these are horrible moments. At those times I definitely walk out of the room and get myself back under control and it is not easy but I do it because things have changed and Mum is now VULNERABLE just as YOU were vulnerable when you were abused. But I didn't want to become my Mum and I am damned sure you don't want to become yours either.

You are definitely not alone in suffering abuse - many of us have and some only find out about things they didn't know once their loved ones release that information through dementia.

I have to say that if anyone even THINKS you were baiting your Mum deliberately to cause her angst they would be right in shouting ABUSE and god knows you are the last person to deserve that given what you went through, but you need to be aware it could happen. It will be no use to shout but she did this and that to me

What I am really saying is that if you cannot rise above what happened to you then get your Mum into care - Olly is right, if one day it gets too much for you and you snap you could find yourself in prison or perhaps worse still in a mental institute if the courts deemed you guilty by reason of mental defect (however temporary that may have been and however unintentional that may have been). Given your childhood that would be so unfair on you.

It does seem that you haven't come to terms with what happened to you. I won't use the term gotten over - you never get over abuse - you only ever learn coping mechanisms. If you ever learn how to forgive your Mum - tell me because I haven't learned that one yet.

I have learned that I am worthy however - OK sometimes the veil of worthiness slips but for the most part I hold it close to me. I have learned that Mum can still whine bitch and moan and that it doesn't alter the fact that I am stronger and that *I* now act as *her* protector and guardian - the only difference is *I* do it properly whereas she didn't. The day I stop being able to do that is the day I stop care-giving.

So with kindness I say don't bait your Mum - it's not right, and you know it's not right or you wouldn't have asked the question now would you xxx

Olly when I walk away I don't stay within hearing distance trust me. I go out into the garden or I put my music on but I don't go back for at least 20 minutes. But I don't challenge my Mum even if she said I like this those purple daffodils and I know they are yellow - I would just say yes they are pretty aren't they. Unfortunately you may have to get used to repetitiveness - it's part and parcel.

The art is to make the agreement sound normal. So IF you truly don't agree with something say I can see why you like this and they ARE nice but I prefer ......

Or if she wants you to take her somewhere and you have something else that needs doing then say - Yes I will take you there but not today - as I have something else planned .....then before she can scream at you for not jumping to attention immediately add what day would you like to go?

I keep an arsenal of excuses : I hear they have a school trip going there today - or it will be too busy their sale starts today - or It's a bit late now they will be closing shortly after we get there and I thought we could have lunch out too - that would be good wouldn't it - anything that will distract

You are not necessarily doing anything wrong per se - and you will NEVER get it right every time - you haven't a hope in hell of doing that, but I find if I partially agree then I get a much better result than if I just say yes all the time - because let's face it - your parent may have dementia but they haven't lost everything yet and she still KNOWS deep inside when you are just patronising her - the days when the dots join up for once she still recognises what you are doing too by the sounds of it!!!! You my dear were caught out in the act! Don't sweat it Olly My mum catches me out all the damned time and I think I have it sussed. All of sudden we get a day when she can join more of the dots than usual and hey I am trapped again! Time to go out into the garden again!!! good luck sweetheart

thank you all for your kind responses. Yes I agree, I do get the desire to lash out. Generally if I really get annoyed I go out of earshot and yell at the wall. Keeps me from being snarky all the time, I just yell at the wall and get it out of my system.
No, I really can't walk away. There are many here in dysfunctional families (there is a whole thread to it). If I was really successful, I wouldn't be there. However, I need a place to stay, I can go downstairs, I have other hobbies to keep me occupied.
Mom has calmed down a hell of a lot since the 'glory days'. I walked out when I was 24 and I think that was a real wake up call for her. Even though she blamed everyone and everything else, I think deep down she knew she was the primary cause. So, she is behaving a lot better. Which is gratifying. The only trait that has not gone away is manipulative behavior ("I don't want to try on clothes that don't fit.") because she doesn't like changing a type of clothes. It is as if she really cannot state the fact outright "I don't like this type of clothing", rather tries some innane excuse. That is what will set me off and I'll ask the same question back when the same situation arises.
It is not like I constantly berate, snark, etc. It tends to emerge when I know she is being manipulative. Again, it does not occur very often.
When she goes... I really have no idea what I am going to feel, how I'm going to react. I will be sorry, no one likes death and it is an enemy. So much is lost when the old generation passes. Again, thank all of you for your help and words. I have bad times of the month still as well, that does not help. God help all of us in this. As for when I really get old? There will be no one. Period. I am on my own and I think that is as it should be.

I take it that you're homeless, jobless and broke which has landed you back home with mom which just being back home physically in her house puts you emotionally in a dependent position. I hope that one day you financial situation will improve and that you can move back out on your own. Thus plus your childhood experiences of abuse from her is a very sad state of affairs.

I have a job, I just don't make enough. I also semi retired to try and help mom out a bit more. I am just tired, tired all the time. What mom has will pass to me upon her passing, depending on just how decrepit she gets. She can't hear, can hardly see, her life has to be a nightmare of boredom. No one visits, both of us have tended towards just being loners. I am a bit of a homebody myself. I like sitting on the back porch and watching the sun go down. Unfortunately, the only chair mom likes is in the front, tends to be quite dark. I watch some tv with mom, but for the most part, I am doing something else in the house, or downstairs. It does work out for both of us for the most part ok, there are simply episodes where mom makes things a bit more difficult. Like I said, she has calmed down a lot. Of course, I have no clue (as do none of us) what the future holds. For the most part it is working out for both of us.

Two cents I understand now - and you weren't baiting you had a momentary snipe back which I imagine we are all guilty of periodically - the real issue is that you are worn out hun. Holding down a job AND caring is really tough. I only managed a year before Mum kept falling and my bosses were really good about it but it wasn't fair on the rest of my colleagues for me to continue.

Baiting means deliberately setting out to cause pain to someone emotionally and I don't think you have been doing that at all. If you have of course then I take all that back ... but I think I have gotten where you are now. Go see a doc and get some meds for yourself - you need to be calmer and meds would help you

Twocents I really feel the frustration that your mother can't just give you a straight frank answer about her preferences. Mine used to drive me completely nuts over that, it was a real trigger. I knew she couldn't help it, I knew she wasn't setting out to be a pain, but ohforgod'ssake - it was such a waste of *TIME*!!! Having to play twenty questions every supper time instead of her saying I'm bored with chicken I want steak - or whatever. UGH!!! Just out with it, for heaven's sake!

I miss her terribly, you know. That bit not so much though. Hugs to you.