The Caregiver & Dysfunctional Families: How are you doing?

Alison, the term de-churched is a rather new term and one I learned from a book titled, Reaching the De-Churched, which it defined as Christians who have not left their faith, but have left the institutional church after some painful experience like telling someone their depression is because they lack faith, have a demon or there is some unconfessed sin in their life. Some churches are still in the dark ages about mental illness. My family and I have had a mixed response from churches to her mental breakdown and to my depression, but much of it was negative. We hardly attend church and or Sunday school anymore.

Cmag~I enjoyed your poems and am so sorry for what you have been through. You have come such a long way in recovery from all the abuse you went through.I look forward to reading more of your poems. I understand the disappointment with the hospital postponing your mothers surgery for a later date. Hugs to you and i hope you share more of your journey with us!!

Alison,

I really feel for your situation regarding your mother.
It is difficult, given that she is used to coming over your dad's, and as you stated was coming there for years. This makes it almost even tougher. You say she's divorced from your father, but look at even that dynamics, she still is enmeshed in his life. Your brother's attitude towards your mom also reminds me of my own brother's concerning issues in the family and denial about realities.

I realize you think that your mom isn't narcissistic, but maybe you should read the site that Emjo suggested to you. Even if she is not, she sounds very toxic.
It's wonderful in theory that you would like to have a relationship with her, however she really doesn't seem like she knows the meaning of respect towards a very wonderful person, you!

When I got to this moment in my relationship w/my own narcissistic mother, I took matters into my own hands. I realized there was no reasoning, explaining-none of that with my clueless mother. This is when I put some serious boundaries into place, and kept them. I have to tell you, she kind of backed down after that, because she now realized I wasn't going to tolerate any disrespect from her anymore. She doled out the very passive aggressive type of abuse, too.

Stand up for yourself, because no one else will,
Much Love & LIght! Margeaux

Scmoon~Thank you for such a loving, kind post. I truly appreciate it. I have forgiven my parents (my father passed away in 2003). My mother, I continue to forgive. As you said, it is not an easy journey, forgiveness does not happen overnight, in the beginning we have to forgive daily. I had a bad experience with the church as an adult. I had been attending church for ten years, was the Altar Guild Directress for 9 years when we got a new minister. He took an immediate dislike to me. I told my mother about my feelings, she said I was imagining things...normal response from her regarding my feelings. I should have resigned but I didn't. I hung in there for 6 more years only to be very badly hurt by this man. I ended up leaving the church altogether and have not gone back to any church since. It took me 3 years to work through the pain of what I experienced...he would target me from the pulpit regarding a new outfit I bought, he targeted me because I got a new, but used car I needed to get to work...he didn't believe in getting loans to buy cars, if you didn't have the cash to pay for it, you shouldn't get it.Then the worse came...they started shunning my children. That was the final straw for me. You want to attach me as an adult, that is fine...but don't shun my children...they are children for goodness sake!! I have found forgiveness for this situation too. I do believe in God and Jesus Christ, but what I believe is not what the church apparently believes. I have many friends who like you are Christian, but they don't treat me how I was treated at church. I went to the church asking for help when my youngest was 3 years old. My husband started a new job where he was working 12 hour days, I was working 40 hours a week. I was so overwhelmed with responsibility taking care of 2 small children by myself, working 40 hours a week...all I asked for was for one of their teenage children watch my 2 children for 2 hours on a Saturday so I could run errands, getting a well deserved break so I could quickly grocery shop and run other errands. I was demoralized for asking such a question, told I was a horrible mother for even thinking I should be away from my children. Because I was still very dysfunctional, I felt I deserved their treatment. I still struggle with this question...if the church felt I was not raising my children properly, why did they not take the opportunity to take me under their wings when I asked for help instead of waging war on me 15 years later? Enough of this. I feel your love and kindness Scmoon!! Love and hugs back to you, you are very loving and I appreciate it.

Alison~I must admit while reading your post, I was thinking you should take your father to the appointment early to avoid your mother. I don't know if that is the right answer or not but it certainly sends a message. Your mother sounds similar to my mil who passed 2009. She consistently forced her beliefs and how she wanted life on me to no avail. I loved her from the core of my being but we did not see eye to eye. What is sad...I found out from my fil's sister at my mil's funeral reception, that mil praised my crafting talents and said good things about me. Why didn't she ever tell me that? Oh well!! I did learn many positive things from her that my own mother did not teach me, I think that was the purpose of her being in my life. I only wish our relationship had been different. I am very emotional and respond better to people who are emotional too. Whatever decision you make tomorrow morning, we are with you, support you and as always hugs and love to you and Scmoon!!

I do understand about honoring your parents, What I didn't see was there are many ways of honoring them. Sharynmarie, I don't know you but your post touch my heart so much. We all can learn the different ways to honor our parents. Sometimes life is so hard being a caretaker of a parent. I had a daughter when I was 16, no one would hire me except a convalescent home. The day I started working , I told myself I would never put my parents in one. Well here I am taking care of the hardest person in my life ever. My beautiful mother. I, like you want to honor her, I know this is what God says to do. I have a very depressed mother, I cant seem to even get a smile.Sometimes I get thoughts like, I would just love to leave here, then I feel so bad I just sit and cry. My mom has a big thing like, shes the mom and I'm the daughter. So no matter what I do, she sees me as her child. I do understand, but its hard when you try to take care of someone, and they think you don't know what your doing. When I read your post, it was like the spirt came over me and put me in my place. Just in time, I was just about to go crazy. Thank you so much for writing it and filling my heart with love again. Warmly Jody

Breathing Exercises are really helpful. I let myself go completely down a road of emotional free fall tonight and didn't stop to do one BE. Ok, I am reminded now. I'll do them tomorrow, too.

Take care all. Thanks.

Thank you, cmag. It makes sense to me that my experiences aren't unique... and I know from experience that its helpful to learn something from those who've actually been through it/accomplished it. So its a good idea for me to look into learning more about what you call "de-church." I think this is my very first time ever hearing the terminology. It makes sense.

I "got by" for many years by just being absent from all this... being in a geographically removed place... my relationship with my mom never got better... even if I talked to her once every 6 months on the phone, it would somehow end up in one of us getting upset with the other. Very upset. Yelling, screaming, hostile upset. And I just can't understand, for the love of God (no pun... har... gallows sense of humor, can't help it... ;D), why she won't at least agree to a cease-fire (by her not coming to visit) for now. She clearly isn't tired of the fighting... and I'm just plumb worn out.

Ok, all you "praying people" ... please say a prayer that I will have a better, clearer idea of how to proceed with my day tomorrow when I wake up. I couldn't mean this last sentence more. I don't want to keep destroying my current emotional stability based on things that happened to me as a child, that I now see represented in my mom's words/actions of today. I am older, wiser, bigger, and I could, potentially, just "suck it up" ... for now... given the circumstances... live to fight another day... stop taking it to the "level" her behaviors always seem to get me to operate on... I can't change her. I can change myself.

"Dance, monkey, dance!" This is exactly how I feel about what she does to me.

I'm sick of dancing to that same stupid tune.

I can just stop dancing, can't I?


Thanks. This is Hard. I predicted this, that she would perform her desired behavior regardless and still find myself in a tizzy. I have to stop hoping for Change with her. I have gotten to that emotional place with my dad... and things are pretty cool with the two of us... now its her turn. Game on, Life.

Alison, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with extreme organized religion. There are many people who have become de-churched because of those kind of experiences.

Your mother's lack of empathy towards you sounds very borderline or narcissistic to me for such people don't mind busting other people's boundaries.

Emjo, you mentioned PTSD before...

Its very odd... I feel that that MUST be what I'm feeling, in some degree. Theres no other explanation why my mother's decision, as I predicted, to come for a visit and be helpful regardless of my feelings, would make me react the way I did/do.

This is all building in me... I really don't want it to... I try to reason it, love it away from the inside... and yet... its there. Her actions turn me into... I don't even know... someone else... someone different from who I identify with myself as.

I *think* I'm open minded. I *think* I'm caring, considerate, thoughtful... although, of course, I have moments, many moments, where I'm not. But its my genuine desire to be a "good person." And I've found such peace, happiness, even FUN in my life... all the time... even without money, material things, a unknown future... all these things that create worry and stress in the human mind... and I've found a way to be at peace with all of it. But my mother tells me she's coming for a visit and suddenly I'm thinking to myself...

But this is the problem. I'm Not thinking.

I'm feeling. And it Isn't Good. Wow.

I just got off the phone with my mother a few minutes ago... I'm in a bad emotional place...

I'm sorry but I didn't have the emotional wherewithal to really read the last several posts.

But let me say, Scmoon, how I feel about "God" and what that word means to me has nothing to do with good people like you. I recognize that, and since you ARE such a wonderful person, you can never offend me. I just kind of took the opportunity that was in front of me to "vomit up" some icky religiousy feelings from my past and share them... not to bring anybody else down, but because I think it might help me, if I put it into words, to keep shaping my own ideas and see my own Truth and Falsehoods.

My mother just informed me, during a phone call, that she is coming for a visit tomorrow "to take my dad to his doctor's appointments." I spent about 5 minutes trying to say everything in the right way to steer her back towards focusing on her own life.... There's no need for her to drive several hours each way... I'll be down in Indianapolis next week to see her for a "visit" (if thats what she wants)... I tried SO HARD to get her to change perspective, to respect my wishes, to understand that its just a fact that we "get into it" every time shes up here... and that getting all riled up with each other is counterproductive...

She calmly and matter-of-fact told me, again, after several minutes of my sweet-natured, uber-logical pleading with her, that she was coming. In her own words, she told me she was coming because she "had told my dad she would take him to doctor's appointment."

So I rebutted her argument here, but she held firm in the calm, matter-of-fact "sorry if you don't like it but I am coming."

I tried again to keep the conversation in a neutral zone. I made some new points/arguments about why its just so much all around better for her to stay home, why I have everything handled (but thank you VERY much), why its just not healthy or positive for us to be interacting like we are...how much I really do want to have a relationship with her but this isn't the way...

She again calmly and matter-of-fact told me that "sorry if you're not happy about it, but I am coming."

And I LOST IT.

The thing is, she's ALWAYS SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! She's been APOLOGIZING to me my whole damn life! But she's not sorry enough to do ANYTHING differently or be open to any of my logical, or emotional, outcries.

So.... yeah.... sigh.... pretty much, after her stoic refusal to budge or give an inch, or show any sign that my feelings about it mattered at all, no matter what argument or evidence I presented her with, I then went into "crazy Alison mode," which is a mode I hate acting from, hate being in, and don't typically have a problem staying out of... EXCEPT around HER... and I just screamed my head off at her then hung up.

I'm trembling. I have to figure this out so that I'm not in danger... of what, I don't really know... but its there...

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So I got creative. I made up a lie that my dad's appointment time is changed tomorrow to 4 hours earlier. I went into his room and told him that I'd just learned of the new time change and so we need to leave the house by 9am tomorrow. I'm so hoping this is enough time to avoid any confrontation with my mother...

I will explain to my poor dad, who's just simply caught in the middle here, why I lied about the time change once we get on the road, and we have an hour drive up to VA center to talk about things... I believe my dad, even in his limited cognitive abilities, respects me because of how much I've done, and do for him. I really think that if I can say the right words to him tomorrow, he will understand my choices and be, at the least, not mad at me for deceiving him.

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Interesting, unforeseen update: my bro and I just had conversation about this, and while I still feel largely unsupported by him in "helping me handle our mother," which he also readily agrees is disruptive and meddling, he put some new ideas in my head on how to handle the visit... that to let it happen... handle it with calm emotions, period.

So...

I just don't know. I'm going to try to sleep now so that I can hopefully wake up early enough tomorrow, and with enough of a rested state of mind, to act on whatever decision I come to in the morning, as best as I can. Its so hard, I understand now, to treat each recurrence of her "acting out" as a separate, isolated incident. Its just NOT. It IS a pattern, and one that has hurt me and continues today to hurt. But maybe "the answer" for me right now is just to realize that I have put all this back into my face by returning geographically. And that for now, I will have to endure and can try to learn something from all this for future reference, when I'm again in a more "physically removed" place.... even if I lived in the same city as her, in a different house, my own house... I would have more reason to command her basic respect. But this IS my dad's house... before that my GMs... and my mom is used to coming here to "help out" for many, many years now... I can't overlook this...

I just don't know.

I just wish like hell she'd been (even the littlest bit) open to (the greatest amount I could give of) persuasion/bribing/bartering/cajoling/arguing/reasoning. She isn't open to being empathetic to me. That sucks.

Sunny, you can copy it and share it with others. I don't think of myself as all that wise or even awesome. It has taken about 9 years of therapy to get where I am today to be able to write these poems. A friend of mine from high school read these two poems and said they authentically portrayed my journey through life and she was sorry that I went through so much pain.

Love and Hugs, CMag

Oh what a fabulous poem I can so relate to. Do you mind if I copy it? I would love to share it if you don't mind? It truly blessed my heart. Wow, what talent you have. You are truly awesome. Thanks for sharing and caring.

With Love and Hugs,

Sunny:)

I think I'll just share one more poem about the journey through pain and not share the one on dysfunctional families tonight.

I wrote the poem below after reading the book Tragic Redemption by Hiram Johnson.


Path Through Tragic Pain

God's solution for crushing tragedy
is not an offer of a miraculous remedy.

God offers not a formula to eliminate or insulate.
Instead God calls us on the path to participate.

God's grace transforming our places of humiliation,
such is the journey of tragic redemption.

Words wise and true are meant as a tool,
but wrongly used are just plain cruel.

'What ifs' only chain us to the past.
Blame games brings healing which does not last

Naive expectations seek for faith to work like magic,
yet, by faith we walk through the tragic,

Various addictions help excuse our real condition.
They block the way for helpful consolation.

Tragic pain easily becomes fused into a sick self-identification.
A calloused soul greatly needing tragic redemption.

Tragic feelings deep and real are not the center of the universe.
'No one knows the trouble I've seen' needs another verse.

Other's tragedies might not be as bad,
While some are far worse than what we had.

Sucking others into our misery,
creates a path to further insanity.

Locked in by self centered rage,
like a wild animal in a cage.

Bitterness creates an illusion of security and control.
Yet, it will not make one whole.

Expecting and demanding perfection creates dark isolation.
The courage to be imperfect brings salvation.

Controlling, rationalizing and intellectualizing spreads darkness in our
souls,
while accepting ourselves as flawed returns the dawn of life into our
aching souls.

Isolated souls existing around like souls, hurt, kill and destroy each other.
Connected souls living around similar souls, treat each other like sister
and brother.

From time to time, I've shared some of my poems about pain and dysfunctional families. I think that I'll share all three tonight.

Barnacles and the Tragedies of Life

Barnacles are like the tragedies of life.
On a wooden ship they destroy its life.
Those who run into them are diced.
Barnacles can shipwreck your or another’s life.

Ever hear that hurt people, hurt people too?
How can this not be true of me and you.

Difficult to do in the middle and after a painful crisis.
Refuse to feel the pain and anger of being diced.
End up numb and dumb just like ice.

To forever nurse the pain,
Leads to never being free to love again.

We cannot chose to be or not to be hurt by the barnacle like tragedies and people in life.
However, we can chose not to let those experiences make us like a barnacle in another’s life.

To be or not to be a barnacle is the question for tonight.
To feel hurt and anger, but sin not is a difficult fight.

However, it is the biblical way to a better day.
Yet holding on to it and nursing it digs a dark and dreary day.

People, we do this as if it will somehow accomplish something.
But honestly, that choice accomplishes nothing.

What is all this about the Kindle? I only have the old e-reader with keypad and I could never get on-line and type. haha In fact, I cannot type on my netbook or Ipad either without lots of typo's so please over look them. I don't want to have to edit and cannot type and think at the same time. I have forgotten how to multi-task. lol

But I love to read on my Kindle. I have 1600 books. Have read a few hundred and keep my Kindle so slow because I like having all my books categorized and together. I met many great Indie writers when I was on a chat line at the Amazon Discussion threads. I had one called Welcome to The Kindle Comfort Inn but we kept getting attacked so I quit it. It was not worth the trouble. I am glad things are smooth here. There are many spoil sports who do nothing but attack. I miss my dear writer friends but they email me now and then.

And Booklovr, are you a writer? I would love to write a book but no one wants to read about my dysfunctional life. But, I do love to read and play bingo. haha. I enjoy your post are like a good writer. You too are a very wise woman and I enjoy your post. They are so helpful and I feel for your and your responsibilities too. I guess we all have a cross to bear. Take care and I will keep reading your enlightening post.

Warm wishes and Hugs,

Sunny:)

Sunny, thanks. I'm not offended by your religious views and am saddened to read your painful experiences with extreme organized religion.

There are several books that have been written about recovering from abusive churches, recovering from spiritual abuse, toxic faith, reaching the de-churched, etc.

Love and hugs. CMag

SharynM, I have enjoyed reading your post and my love and prayers are with you as well. I know many of you have experienced so much more than I have and I am not trying to make it sound easy to overcome our dysfunctional families. And we cannot overcome them but I have been blessed to learn to live with it the best I can and not let it further ruin my life. Each of us has to deal with the situations as it works for our own personal needs. And I can feel your heartaches and struggles and my love and prayers are with you and know you will find help and comfort here with these wonderful individuals who have suffered much more than I.

Take care and look forward to chatting more with you and getting to know you. I love each of you and I don't want to offend anyone.

Love and Hugs,

Sunny:)

CMag, I pray your mother is doing better and too. Thanks for your kind comments and this wonderful home. You are very wise and I enjoy all your post and hope you were not offended by my religious views on what has helped me.

Love and Hugs,

Sunny:)

OMG Allison, I am so sorry for all your have experienced and I do understand why you feel the way you do. I am glad you are able to pray and it will work for you. I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. I know my beliefs are special to be but everyone will not see what I meant for them to. \

Thank you for seeing through what you cannot agree with to what I was trying to say in my humble way. I know you are a loving and kind person and with all you have suffered I understand just what you mean. I never meant to hurt anyone of push my belief off on anyone. This is just the way, it opened my eyes to see what I needed to learn of love and forgiveness and I am glad you could understand this. I do care so much for you and am so sorry for your suffering. I have not experienced anything that bad. But, I was not brought up in church. Neighbors took me at times, this was a personal relationship I obtained as a young adult. My mother is Catholic and my father was Methodist and they did not attend church. They chose to spend the weekend drinking and fighting. I had some exposure to sexual abuse but was not touched if that makes sense. You are so delightful and I love you even more for sharing and caring in spite of my putting my religious views on line. It may not have been socially correct but was the only way I could explain my personal situation dealing with my dysfunction. You are so wise and opened minded to have read between the lines and understand what I was trying to say.

My deepest apologies to you and I will try and be more careful how and what I say as not of offend anyone. I love all of you too much to offend anyone. So, my apologies to anyone else I may have offended.

Love and Hugs,

Sunny:)

Allison, thanks for your comments and encouragement. And I don't want anyone to think it is easy to work things out or that I don't still have struggles as I do. But, I try to take it one day at a time and that is easy for me to say since I am not in your situation. My love and heart goes out to you for all you must take and do. You are a strong women and I feel proud to know you and hope I can be here for you during the times you need a friend. I sincerely appreciate your understanding and caring. I could not do all that you do but I so admire you. Don't give up and stand your ground with tough love when you must take control of a difficult situation. You have to try and understand each situation is unique and what worked for me will not for you. I just knew I could not bring my mother in my home and it was from reading all the post of how difficult and impossible it is. And many of the post I have read did not include Dysfunctional families. And you are so right, we can never leave it. It is with us no matter how hard we try. May God Bless and give you the strength and stamina you need and please learn to take time for yourself or you will burn out like I have and will not be able to help yourself, let alone anyone else. I do care and my heart aches for you. I have cried for you and am here anytime you need someone, as are all the rest of the fabulous group.

Get out and have a little fun regardless of who likes it. Let them all get upset but take care of yourself.

Love, Prayers and Hugs my sweet friend.

Sunny:)

I so appreciate this thread, as well as our other but for those of us from dysfunctional families, it is so necessary. I have been a responsible adult since my childhood when I had to help raise two younger brother 8 and 9 yrs younger than me. I have been caregiving all my life and now that I am not well, I am unable to give as most of you are right now. I can only help my mother from a distance by taking her where she needs to go and even helping a small bit financially but I would not risk my chronic illnesses to do what I used to think I "Should Do." It is not about doing what we think we should but about doing the best we can. No more, no less. There are no rules in this situation each of us find ourselves with our dysfunctional parents. So please know you can only do so much and we cannot change them and we will die trying. Give it your best and let go of what you cannot do and love yourself first. I hope this will help just one person so see how wonderful you are and how the scarifies you are making may be more than your body, mind and soul can withstand. We can detach without not being there at all and that was so eloquently pointed out in another post here. We are all in a learning process and just do your best but don't sacrifice all of yourself to your parents and ignore your own needs. That is not about honor. That is doing more than your body is capable and it will wear you down and help no one.

I do care about each of you with your struggles, and despair. Many of you have shown your love and given me the love and support I need too and truly blessed my heart. And you have been so helpful and uplift me each day I come here. Thanks and God Bless each of you that you will find a renewed life of peace, love and joy.

My love and prayers to all,

Sunny:)

Kristi, you are welcome to share my personal comments for what they are worth. But, it is doubtful they will want to hear it. I did not learn this in Sunday School either. but I studied this when it the promise of God was brought to my attention of honoring our parents and this included step parents, grandparents and anyone who shared in being there for you as a child.

I actually did a serious study on this one commandment and was shocked at the responsibility. But Honor is the key word, not being a Myrta or causing harm to your own welfare is not part of honoring. We must respect our parents for what they tried to do for us no matter how neglected we have been or how difficult our lives may be now.

I have a one son who has very little to do with us or any of his family but he is from a broken home as his Dad left when he was young and he had a good home but as I stated, I made some of the same mistakes and my own trying not to be like my parents but as someone wisely stated, we never get "over" coming from a real dysfunctional family. But, for me it was being able to understand they did the best they knew how under their circumstances and realizing they were so caught up in a life of misery and turmoil we were left to raise ourselves. My mother never took me shopping, to a movie or to do girl things together and I left home after high school, got married and there is where I learned to be really bitter and blame my parents. I was being dysfunctional as well. It seemed the harder I tried, the worse I got. It was not until I found my husband of 33 wonderful years did I learn I was a good person with nothing to be ashamed of. My dear husband is older and a very wise and good natured man and he was not abusive like my first husband. I had to get out of that relationship and have someone believe in me before I could begin to understand and get help.

The last step was being able to love "unconditionally" without expecting anything in return and to forgive my parents as they had no idea what damage it caused our family. Most of us know that having a narcissistic mother hurt us very much and we never felt loved. Now my 91 year old mothers tells me she loves me and hugs me back but it took 88 yrs for us to come to an understanding. And yes, I have to detach and sometimes not speak for a week while she brews and stews and then when she is over it, I will go back. I am just happy that I was given the chance with someone who supported me through the tough years when I blamed, and cried for help. I never thought I could love Mother, but it is amazing what we can do, when we heal our own hearts and soul. Loving unconditionally does not mean agreeing with everything or will it prevent all disagreements but I can walk off rather than yell, blame and cry in front of my mother. It will always hurt, but I am not suffering from the abuse since I think I have been able to see her side and know what she could not help. She is not a mother I can be proud of and be with like many mothers and daughters. I never had that and never will. She just needs me now and I will be there for her but not by ruining my own feelings. I have to protect myself and not allow the abuse and at times, it means stepping back and let them be upset alone.

I appreciate all the wise comments and suggestions. My heart aches for those of you who may never get where I am but mine was through the Grace and forgiveness of God. I could not have understood without it. I still get knots in my stomach when being around mother but it just does not hurt like it did.

And Kristi, if you want to know more about the commandment of honoring our parents, please email me. I can tell you there is lots of things on this subject from the Kings James Version of the Bible if you are interested in learning more. It really facinated me and showed me what I had to do to get my own life in order and no we don't have to bring our loved ones into our homes with a toxic relationship. That is not what honoring is about. It is giving respect that we feel they don't deserve but since God can and does forgive me for everything, who am I to judge? And I don't think everyone will be able to get the same results as I have because you probably don't have a supportive loved one who really understand or is willing to help you when we are at our worst. I took so much frustration out on my husband, I cannot understand how he loves me so and is so good to me but I am so thankful. I could not have done this without him.

I hope no one thinks I am saying if I can do it you can, because of the levels of degree of abuse you are in now will depend on how much you have to give to yourself to heal. I felt totally selfish for a while but had to take care of myself in order to heal. But, I no longer carry any hate, anger or malice against my mother. I am accepting her as she is the best I can. And my love and prayers are with each of your unique situations. Just hang in and do your best. We cannot make them change but we do not have to subject ourselves to their abuse either. But, we must forgive those that harmed us. It is the only way out.

My love and prayers are with each of you and I will still whine about my problems to you because this did not take away all the problems but it was a great beginning for me and I can vent without hurting my mother. My life's not perfect by any means but I am content within for the first time in my life and I think I am a good person in spite of all my faults and misgivings. I do have a big heart and love for others. This is why I am glad I found each of you here. I can so relate to your broken hearts and disillusionment. So, just take it one day at a time and give it your best shot. That is all anyone can do. But, you are not to blame so please let go of your guilt or shame. We are a product of our environment have we have all come a long way with much more before us to deal with. Just one thing at a time and take care of yourself or you cannot help anyone else.

With my love,

Sunny:)

Scmoon, I really appreciate that you took the time to put into words what caring for/caregiving to/honoring our parents "looks like" for you. I've read the post a few times now and each time I think I pick up more of the subtle feelings/descriptions of what you're trying to say this experience, of what learning to love - and live with - dys parents, is like for you. Its taken me a few times of reading to absorb it because, frankly, my gut reaction is to dismiss it all together because God is intricate to it.

It happens that in my case, my mother raised me with organized religion to the extreme. And in fact, religion/God played a huge role in my unhappiness/torture as a child. I'll give you a couple of examples:

When I was age 5, my mother took me to a "Satanic rock and roll" seminar. I knew more about demons, demonic possession, pentagrams, backward masking than any 5 year old should. It took me until I became a teenager to stop being terrified of the dark based on my idea that demons were around me everywhere.

My Saturday afternoons in grade school were spent in a picket line of a pornography store. I learned to believe that sexual images are evil, and sexuality in general was evil.

I learned the "birds and the bees" in 4th grade, after attending a child sexual abuse seminar with my mother and the word "vagina" was used. I didn't know what it meant so later I asked my mother and she gave me the basics on the birds/bees. - I distinctly remember learning to believe that tongue kissing was "nasty" after hearing it described, as happening between an adult and an infant, at this seminar. They talked about putting semen in baby's bottles at this seminar. This is the kind of stuff no ADULT should be hearing about, much less a child! -

There were many other age-innapropriate, fear-mongering seminars: abortion, political/religious stuff (militia type stuff), and lots and lots of tent revivals where a person's certain eternal torture in Hell could only be evaded by an emotional experience of "coming to Jesus" ...

I was made to attend church services 4 times per week, I attended church school from preschool thru 12th grade. And being in this extremely religious environment all the time, I was further demeaned and terrified by youth pastor's, deacons, Sunday school teachers, judgmental/hateful other mothers...

Were there some good people around in my church, too? Sure. Just far too many crazy bad ones and it doesn't take a lot of bigotry and zealots and outright lunatics to make an impressionable child scarred, scared, trapped, HURTING. And it was the religion that was driving all this evil in people around me... religion was giving them a reason to be in judgment of me, and be justified in their actions, no matter how off base and fundamentally illogical/irrational... not to mention just flat out MEAN.

My Sunday school teaching/choir singing stepdad used to beat on my brothers, throw them around, man handling them, on Sunday afternoons, in between church services. My mother did the same to me. Beat me to the point that my stepdad, who hated my guts, threatened to call child services on her. I actually did field the most vicious physical attacks, not my brothers. There's nothing quite like the viciousness of a deranged, hate-filled woman who wants to take out her frustration and anger on a smaller one that is defiant of her. I was badly assaulted on many occasions by my God-fearing mother. And this violence was excused, even largely in my own mind at the time, because the Bible speaks about corporal punishment... "spare the rod, spoil the child." I'm sure it didn't mean "choke out your daughter on the floor while straddling her." But the Bible causes me great frustration because it IS up to the reader to interpret correctly... and some (I would argue MANY) human beings just don't seem capable of making judgment calls about physical abuse/violence... so I, personally, much prefer the "just don't put your hands on anyone, ever, in anger or as a form of correction" approach.

My sexual molestation as a young child was largely tolerated and dismissed as unimportant, and my stranger-rape as a 19 year old was met with the accusation that I somehow deserved it, all by my "Christian" mother.

She has, at times, apologized to me for her behavior. But her unwillingness to do ANYTHING ELSE towards taking responsibility for her actions besides "praying about it" is part of the problem, not the solution.

So please understand that for me, there is no room in my heart for any of God's commandments. But, I can be a decent humanist and continue to do the right things without involving religion.

And I apologize to other readers that really don't need to read about this level of negativity with regard to my bitter childhood events. I'm sorry that it happened to me, I'm sorry that the same, but different, happened to you.

I just want to communicate to some of my friends on here why God's commandments cannot be part of my approach to setting boundaries with family. I know that many of you are faith-filled, wonderful human beings. And I don't mind, at all, listening to someone describe their beliefs. I do not judge other's choices of spiritual beliefs. I think spirituality is thee most personal of choices and I would never presume to tell someone who/what/when/why/how/where about this area. And I do believe in the "power of prayer" and I do occasionally pray... But I pray to a Benevolent Universe who, I believe, has already designed a Wonderful System where I can find answers and thrive without needing more specifics spelled out for me. I see Karma in action around me every single day. Its enough of a deterrent/reward system for me, personally.

Scmoon, I hope you can "feel" what I'm saying here in the loving, respectful way that its meant. I have a lot of love in my heart for human beings. I love any other human that makes me think, feel, takes time to share with me what is important and defining to them, allows me to share what's important/defining to me... And so I do, really, love all you guys that give me so much via these AC threads! To me, this is what love between human beings is about... finding ways to respect differences of beliefs and come out on the other side still supporting the person and their ideas/decisions they've arrived at based on their own infinitely personal Journey through this Life.

I probably should go through and edit this emotional post and make sure I'm communicating with the right words, but I'm too spent at this point, lol! This stuff is just "harshing my mellow" right now. I am conditioned to be mentally/emotionally repulsed by anything of Christianity/Organized Religion because my hurt is so great and my experience so bad. That's horrible, isn't it? I do believe that Christ existed and was a phenomenal humanitarian and spiritual leader in his day... I just don't know what happened in the past 2000 years that people now turned it into... THIS... all around me... Or even what happened to my mother's Greek Orthodox religious upbringing, where largely traditions and positive ideas are emphasized... how did she go from that to the Crazyland that I was raised in? I don't know. So I just do without the whole ball of wax that is Organized Religions.

On my drive up to the hospital today for my mother's kidney stone surgery, I received a phone call that it had been postponed from 9:45 to 2:30 which they did not even call me about. My step-dad's helper called me with the news for she had called the rest home to make sure when the surgery was scheduled for. Evidently, the machine they used to break up kidney stones travels around in a truck which broke down today. Later today, I got a call that her surgery is rescheduled for August 5th at 5:45 am. What a mess. I had a dental appointment for that day which I've already changed. After getting up at 6:15 am, I've felt tired all day long. When I got home, I went back to bed for a bit.

As far as how my mother is doing, she is still like she was when she came back from the hospital after having twisted bowels and a bad UTI. Her dementia has worsened. She hardly talks at all now and has told her husband and his helper that she has nothing more to say to them. She sleeps more than she did and otherwise mainly lays there with her eyes shut like she's waiting to die just like her mom did. She can't half feed herself when they bring her a meal and has problems holding a drink in her hands. The CNAs now help her eat and drink.

I'm glad to report that I'm not having flashbacks about my past like I was at one time which is nice.

cmag -do let us know how the procedure works out
too funny sharyn and book! I like tootle!
but not your situation whirlpool. I agree with sharyn -inform yourself and set boundaries. You are not being melodramatic - dysfunctional families are full of drama of the unhealthiest kind.
Alison - In the last few years, I have tended towards seeing my mother in public rather than private. I find it helps.
Margeaux -glad you surfaced - keep in touch
Austin - your feedback is very helpful - glad you and the bf are doing well, even if the cat isn't. My cat gets more and more vocal as he ages. I can hardly hear anyone on the phone when he is "yelling".
juju - the "flood" could be a blessing in disguise, but I would not want to be dealing with what you are - I think you are doing very well with it - lots of ingenuity.
in the airport waiting for a connection, no phone calls, keep your fingers crossed for me
love and hugs - Joan

I don't know. My own Kindle correction was sooooo embarrassing! I wanted to type "No extramarital sex in the marriage bed" and the Kindle came up with "No excitement in the marriage bed." Now posters here will think I'm such a Prude!

Book-i was thinking about that too! It was funny. I think we should start a thread where everyone types using a kindle or other device with autocorrect. It would be a great stress reliever!

{{laughing}} Oooh, Sharyn, I still remember that one time your Kindle changed a lot of your post. I laughed so hard, my stomache hurt. I Think I had copied and pasted it into my FUNNY file. =)

So sorry. Kindle likes to autocorrect in strange ways..should be. I am not jam and google not tootle..though kindles version is funnier!