It's been a hard week....

Paul, as CM has said so well, there is no need to come up with excuses that explain why you feel the way you do.

Don’t even say that ‘you can’t’. Tell him, ‘I won’t’ be at your house. There is a difference. Can’t opens the door to asking why. Won’t doesn’t open any doors. Then hang up! That’s if you choose to answer the phone.

I think a one word answer like, ‘No’ might freak him out! I can him him saying, “No what?” This way saying just a few more clear, distinct words, ‘I won’t be there anymore for rides.’ It is super clear! Not vague at all. If he says, ‘Yes, you will!’ You do not have to respond. You already said it. No need to repeat. Let your brother deal with it. You’ve done enough.

Your brother and father are trying to manipulate you. As soon as you took the bait, they kept feeding it to you. We all have all fallen into a trap like that before. Once trapped it’s harder to become free. May take awhile before they stop asking you to do this or do that, but they will.

I allowed an older lady that I felt sorry for to do this to me. I gave her rides everywhere. Not anymore and I feel so free. She has money for cabs.

I stopped and now she is asking someone else who is the last person in our circle of friends to do so. The other woman is really good at only taking her once a month to run errands. Her daughter can take her the rest of the time or she can take a cab.

All I know is when she started getting terribly rude with me I cut her off completely. I do not feel guilty at all. I feel liberated. She no longer expects rides from me. She makes other arrangements.

I am not angry with her. I’m sorry I allowed her to do it in the first place. But I corrected the situation. You can too. In fact, do what I did and say, ‘no more rides anymore’. He is not destitute. He has money and has been hoarding it. Let him spend for a taxi or delivery. Best of luck.

Remember, say to him. I won’t be there and hang up. No excuses, no explanations. Nothing but, I won’t be there Saturday. If you want to throw in to make other arrangements but I wouldn’t because he will only tell you that he can’t do that. Text your brother and do the same thing with him.

Why do you take so literally what your father says to you?

He wasn't worried. Think that's true? Think it more likely that he was indignant at your not jumping to answer his call? Even though he knew why you weren't picking up?

Okay, accept that he was outraged at your non-compliance, rather than stressed out because he couldn't grasp what was happening. Think that's appropriate?

Whichever way you slice it, your father is not making sense.

What you can do is research, identify and secure a place at a good residential care home for him. That's what you can do.

Forthcoming holiday in the summer to Florida is going to be the usual battle as well if previous years are anything to go by.

Same thing. He expects a phone call when he wants one. No matter the 8 hour flight, 5 hour time difference or the fact that I'm actually on holidays with my kids. Of course, I ring him but last year he went a bit OTT. Fully expect the same.

CM - To be honest as I've always said hes always been like this - got to be in control. Its just as hes got older, hes got less to worry about himself so he focuses more on it.

I agree with you its not "normal" behaviour though but what can I do? Like I said, brothers attitude is "hes old he worries about things so we've got to keep him happy".

When I spoke to him though, he was not "worried" one little bit. In fact, he seemed to be more concerned with the fact that I had the nerve to not answer my phone than the fact I was ill.

Paul, your father's thinking pattern is so far off normal it amazes me that you cling to the belief that he is doing this on purpose to control you. Stop and imagine what is going through his head when he is making these calls and see if you can reconcile it with standard cognitive function.

Six-word response to brother: "I am ill. Leave me alone." Then turn your phone off, for heaven's sake.

Polar - yes it was nuts to be honest how he kept phoning and phoning. It was almost as if he wasn't so much concerned about me as wanted to be sure he wasn't left out of any status updates.

It amazed me that after less than 24 hours he felt I was not allowed any space at all and it was my duty to keep in touch with him regardless. Like I said it was LESS than 24 hours and it all went off.

Like I said, he'd contacted my brother to tell him how hurt he was that I wasn't answering his calls. Roped him into trying to "track me down". Really peed off that between the pair of them they think it necessary to bully like this to get their own way.

I honestly think if I ever decided to go "off the grid" for more than a day or god forbid cut any contact he would do something like call the police to contact me.

Best of all - spoke to Dad last night. "Hope you're ok to do my shopping next weekend". Yeh bottom line here.

Pam,

Laying the phone down and walking away is a fantastic idea!

Sonny

You’re a wonderful hubby. Glad it’s a privilege for you. Not everyone can deal with it like you can. We are not all the same. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

be kind because you will miss him when he has to leave. he is lonely. if you are ever in his position of having to depend on other people,then you may realize how he felt. it's hard i know because my wife suffers from demetia.and i am the only one to care for her.and i thank GOD that i'm able to care for her.if and when she has to leave i will truly treasure the time that i was allowed to spend with her. we have been married for 66yrs.i am so happy for the time that we spend togeather.i never resent any thing that i am privledged to do for her. i love her,

Paul - sounds like you have a bad cold or fever.

I'm glad you FINALLY ignored his calls, although you really should have done that after one call telling you were sick and would call him in 2 days.

Keep your word. Don't call until the 2 days are up even if you feel better before then. Ignore your enabler brother, too.

Keep practicing ignoring his calls. You'll get better at it.

Good job Paul. Have a good rest and get better soon.

Well hes been pretty hard work this weekend. I've been pretty ill (not even going to work!).

Bit of peace and quiet needed NOT Dads drama. So he phones me and finds out I'm ill. I can't speak lost my voice, but still he insisted on calling every 6 hours or so, asking what the GP said, have I phoned worked, what am I taking, when am I going back to GP etc. In the end I said "Dad I need rest, please, I'll call you in a day or two!.

Did he listen. Nope. Come sunday I'd had enough. I couldn't have a sleep without him calling to wake me up for a status update. So I ignored my mobile, home phone.

Then I started to get facebook messages from brother, facebook calls. Nasty messages saying "why was I ignoring Dad?" "He was worried about me and I needed to reassure him". Good enabler for Dad my brother is.

This is less than 24 hours after I'd last spoken to him though.

In the end, Paul being ill at home did not constitute a national emergency and the air force search and rescue were not called out but I think if Dad had had his way.....

You don't even have to hang up on someone,,, sometimes you can just lay the phone down and walk away.. far away! then go back in 15 or 20 minutes.. I promise they will be gone.. and if they have tried to call back they will have gotten a busy signal. And then you don't pick up...

paulfoel123 (and anyone else dealing with a paulfoel123-dad-type person!):

Check this out:

https://www.agingcare.com/discussions/a-positive-side-effect-of-my-stepping-away-from-fathers-caregiving-448463.htm?orderby=oldest

If that doesn't work, click the search button at the top right and enter
"A positive side effect of my stepping away" in the search window.

OP Miranova's dad is only disabled, no dementia, etc. Her post and some of the comments might provide some inspiration for others!

Someone even posted a comment about how sometimes when we suggest boundaries, halting enabling behavior or even stepping away completely, some people see that as heartless. Read through this thread and the comments. Sometimes these ARE the best things one can do!

Regarding hang ups - way back in the day my ex would call, usually at the wrong time and knew how to "push my buttons" to get me to react. It took my 5 year old to smarten me up! While arguing on the phone, she stood next to me and calmly said "why don't you just hang up?" I looked at her, amazed, and said why didn't I think of that? Of course when I did this he would just call back so he could hang up. Jerk. As time went on, I changed tactics a bit. When I felt baited, I would pause, thinking of how to respond or not - it would be just enough for him to ask if I was going to answer, and my reply then was no, because if I do we will get into an argument and I don't want to argue. He would get all bent out of shape, starting yelling, making accusations, etc and I would just calmly hang up the phone and then take the phone off the wall so I didn't have to hear it ring when he would call back again!
This got to the point where one time he even brought the police to the house, upsetting the kids, because I wouldn't answer the phone again!

So, yes, NO is a complete sentence. Refusing to answer the phone is an option (most of us still live in free countries!) Refusing to respond/engage in nonsense is another option. Meet accusations and pleading/demanding with silence. Let him get all bent out of shape - but don't let it get to you. His behavior won't change yours if you don't let it. Set a day/time frame for your visits and stick to it as best you can (obviously your own illness, family illness or emergencies override any "plan" and he doesn't have to know the details - just say something came up, we'll have to reschedule, I'll get back to you on that...)

Ask for "placing" him or hiring in-home care, this isn't likely to work, at least not yet. Certainly prepare by exploring what options are available, but until he is deemed incompetent, you won't be able to move him or force him to let others in (if he won't allow food delivery to come in, he isn't likely to allow care-givers to come in.) Despite already starting down the dementia path, the in-home one hour (minimum) check, mainly to be sure mom took her meds from a timed dispenser AND a simple daily check on her didn't last more than a few months - she refused to let them in them. Options then was move in with one of us (was NOT going to be me and would have been a disaster if one of the bros) or a facility. Our attorney told us, even with Dx AND DPOA we could not drag her out of the house. For our situation we had to get "creative", but again, until he is deemed incompetent, there really is no way to force the move/in-home care.

Hope you feel better soon, Paul. Take care. Hugs!

Grow a thick skin!!
Keep your wife on your side for whenever you say No.
Change your phone number, if necessary, or programme a special ringtone so that you know when your dad is phoning and not to pick up.

This sounds heartless, but the best resistance to emotional blackmail is not to take any part in it. When your father no longer has you as his audience, he will latch on to somebody else. I have a feeling your wife would not object to this.

jasmina,

My grandmother in law should have been an actress. My gosh, she good turn the tears off and on in a sec. My poor MIL. She was lovely. Felt sorry that she had to listen to all that crap.

The guilt tripping is classic narcissist. If that doesnt work; up the ani with pretend tears that no one cares, fake starvation, a fall, soiling yourself, even a vomit if neccessary. These are all ways in which to control you.
If it were me, and he starts demanding you do X, y, z then do the opposite. Start screening calls.

Im not surprised that you are sick. All that stress due to constant manipulation. Time to hire a caregiver even if just for a few hrs.
This is an 89 yr old throwing a 4 yr old tantrum. Adults should not give in to tantrums of a four yr old or 89 yr old.

Perhaps you should see a therapist, (couple of visits not yrs) or talk with the wife about why he can manipulate you so easily. Is this recent or has it always been like that?
You need work out strategies to deflect and not give in. Have wife screen the calls so he cant get to you as often and upset you.

You have to watch your stress levels and blood pressure/health. That is your body's way of telling you it is too much. You know he is unreasonable. Baby steps you will get there.

Gershun,

That isn't passive aggressive. That is necessary with some callers. I know an elderly lady that I stopped taking her calls. Every single time she called, she asked about my mom, which is nice but not once did she ever ask about how I was. Then the comment that really got to me was how lucky I was to still have my mom and have her living with me She never once said how lucky my mom was to have me care for her.. Yes, I love mom but it is a tough job! It gets worse, she said she took care of her mom but her mom died many years ago. She wasn't my age caring for her mom. Her mom lived in her own home still. When I cared for mom in her own home it was a lot different. It's not full time. It's still exhausting! However, this is harder.

So, yeah I had to say to her that I couldn't talk and hang up. Now I don't answer her calls. She and her daughter ran into me in the supermarket and said how she missed talking to me. I did not respond. She made me depressed, annoyed by her stupid comments constantly. I feel relieved that I don't speak to her. She was toxic. She constantly asked me to do things for her as well. I have enough caring for mom. She would get mad when I told her I could not take her shopping. Her daughter works and she doesn't like having to wait till the weekend. I have told her over and over that I am not going to leave my 93 year old mom alone to take her shopping. I started out politely telling now, after awhile it really worked on my nerves. I was the last person in our group that helped her. Others ignored her long before I did.

I've been known to hang up on people. Some people consider that passive aggressive behavior. I personally think it's like slamming a door in someone's face when you've asked them to leave and they won't.

Just curious.

Have you ever hung up on him?

Paul, just reminding you that "no" is a complete sentence.

You are already compiling a list of excuses that your Dad will go to town on.

I'm not very well.
My wife's not very well.
I wouldn't want you to catch this bug, it's really nasty.

Well, you tell me how much fun he'll have knocking those down one at a time. You'll be on the phone for hours, altogether, all week long, tangoing with him about whether or not you're going to visit.

Or, you say no. Vary the theme if you get bored

No.
No I'm not going to visit.
I'm not doing it.
Ask someone else.
No.
Cope.
Wear it.
Sod off.

Whatever pleases you. But Do Not Discuss your reasons.

On a personal level, feeling worse today. Think I'm going to have to take time off work. In work at the mo, wife picking my up shortly.

Spoke to Dad the other night who's saying I "have to" visit this weekend because I didn't last weekend. Thats Dad for you.

To be honest, it can't be helped after all, Im not about to bust a gut getting there making myself worse just to visit (I've been stupid enough to do that with work this week).

Also, this is a nasty virus. Its stopped me dead and I'm in good health. My wife, who has asthma ended up in A&E with it having as asthma attack. I really wouldnt want my Dad to get this - it'd kill him.

Currently looking at other alternatives / plans of attack at the moment to be honest.....

Paul,

If your dad won’t go to a facility. I know someone who have refused because they were in fairly good health, just very old and their son hired a private caregiver. That’s very expensive to do it that way! Don’t know if your dad would be willing. I wouldn’t use your money though. You have a family and need money for yourselves.

Maybe as a temporary measure he could hire someone.

You could ask at the facility when is a good time for him to visit. Some plan visits at lunch time and he could meet others and socialize with them. Take care and best of luck to you. Senior citizens can be stubborn.

Get a second opinion on medical concerns. I’ve done that to validate medical conditions.

Your wife is a District Nurse; does she have a friend over at Dad's surgery, to whom she can convey the urgency of a full neuropsych workup?

CM is right; you're NOT stuck; you do NOT have to visit on his schedule and you d@mn will are not taking him into your home when he has a fall/stroke/heart attack.

On the POA issue "fine dad, when you're lying in your own $h*t and can't talk, I won't be able to speak for you. Have it your way."

Well. You can see it as stuck.

Or, you can see it as completely off the hook. Totally lets you out of jail. But then *stay* out of jail, keep out of it altogether, and see how long the GP sticks to that opinion.

You're actually trying to pack him off to avoid rotting in a home. Rotting in a home is what he is doing at the moment.

CM/Barb - Honestly now I did go through all of this with the GP in approx Feb time again. And it wasn't a conversation about how awkward it was. It was me saying he was stuggling with things like anxiety, he wasnt happy and I'd like to get him tested. GP said no need.

Good point about did he remember. Just checked my phone messages - 1st message "I know you said you weren't coming but....". Also, he said he'd been trying to speak to me (I said sorry I was actually in bed ill) and he said he'd phoned quite a few times then gave up leaving messages.

The ATM thing - hes NEVER been able/willing to use one even when he was 40.

His anxiousness - hes always been like this to a certain extent.

I totally agree with you - he would be MUCH happier in a home. I tried to enlist his GP in this conversation too, and they basically said, yes its difficult, but unfortunately, hes in full control mentally and theres nothing you can do even if everyone else around can see how good an idea it is. Get it all the time.

I've tried to discuss with him - he wont entertain the idea. If I mention it he basically has a meltdown now. "After all I've done for you, you're trying to pack me off to rot in a home". Of course, its not like that but hes got an idea is head about what care homes are like and nothing will change his mind.

I'm a bit stuck for now.

I tried to get him to agree to power of attorney recently. Not that I'd force him into anything but Im just planning ahead. He read all the notes then said "No point I don't need that. No way am I signing it. I'm OK as I am".

DItto to what CM is saying.

Everyone who knew my mom thought she was " sharp as a tack", too. The new geriatrics doc who saw her realized in one visit that the anxiety she had was connected to cognitive loss. The neuropsych testing showed a significant loss of IQ points.

Outsiders can see what folks up close don't.

Paul, this is important.

When you spoke to your father and reminded him that you had told him on Friday that you would not visit him over the weekend, and he responded that oh yes, he knew that, he had remembered that but he thought you might have changed your mind, that was an *excuse.*

And you are accepting that he had remembered the conversation.

But he hadn't, had he.

Think about it.

In any of the messages he left while you were lying upstairs ill, did he say "I hope you've changed your mind about not visiting"?

People who are good guessers can conceal for years that they have gone stone deaf.

People who have well-ingrained routines and habits and modes of speech can continue those long after they have ceased to apply any cognitive input to them.

You are looking for the "tells" and they are there a-plenty.