It's been a hard week....

sonny7 - very helpful comment that. Do me a favour and do one mate. Not interested in your crap.

You and my lazy arse brother would get on like a house on fire...

thank GOD that your not in his position.

Needhelpwithmom - Florida is booked for August. But I am in spain next week for a few days.

Dads OK. Hes 85 this year. Going strong to be honest..... I just hope he goes out on his own terms. He'd hate a long lingering illness - I really hope he just goes suddenly one day when his time is right.

One thing that's helped a tiny bit has been digging up old pictures of boats which were enlarged years ago to 1 foot by 1 foot. These pictures have the boats on water so the water is visible with the boat moving. Believe it or not un consciously it has a slight calming affect.

Just saying hello, Paul. Hope you rested up on your trip to Florida. How is dear old dad?

Do you think your dad will make it to 100 years of age? Sometimes I think my mom will. She’s already 93!

Hope all is well with your wife and kids. Take care.

Anonymous - thats part of the problem, he doesnt listen to the GP. They will tell him one thing and then 2 days later hes phoning them again for a different answer.

He wont take the full dose of painkillers because he "doesnt want to get addicted". Also "they bung him up". So GP gave him laxative. Wont take that "dont want to be caught short". You cant win.

Food is a constant fight. He gives me a list which is deliberately low (like I said its a bargaining chip for him) so I buy double. He goes mad.

He does get meals on wheels too. Again 3/4 days a week I think - for same reason.

Tried the caregiver thing. Last time he was in hospital they arranged this. Someone to come in the morning, someone in the evening. He moaned they came too late and he wanted someone there at 9am. I tried to explain that obviously they had a workload and not everyone could have 9am (this is the NHS after all) but he wouldnt have it.

Ended up one day phoning them and cancelling the lot. Jeez.
Paying privately - not until hell froze over would he consider that. His idea would be he'd pay £10 a week or something like that.

Love him but stand your ground: If he mentions that he is sick, keep on telling him  "Take the meds the GP has given you Dad, if that fails then go and see your GP but I'm not a doctor.". If he complains about having no food, then say "Well, the last time I checked, I Filled your frig and freezer with food. That was X amount days ago. Why do you need me to go shopping for you? Did you have a wild party?" (As for the food situation, maybe you could try a meals on wheels situation. As for him eating the food, I am not sure that he will do it or not.) If he wants you to spend the weekend with him, Say "No, I am unable to". Maybe this is a good time for him to get a daily caregiver/helper that can help with his medical issues, feeding needs, etc.?

Tiger - I do love my Dad lots and would do anything for him.

BUT not at the expenses of others when its contrived as well. I can't do that.

That's what makes me so sad with the whole situation. The way he manipulates when there's just no need. My wife works as a nurse in the community and she tells me about old people who's kids never visit, then I've got my Dad who's got it all and treats me so badly sometimes/

It is difficult. 5 hour time difference for a start. More importantly, we're there having fun so haven't got time to spend on the phone all the time.

To be honest, when I'm away he expects MORE calls than when I'm home. Last year he did the brother thing "contact your brother and find out why hes ignoring me" because I hadnt called for 2 days.

Like I've always said sometimes not sure if its a power thing with Dad. He likes it if hes got people running around and/or making him important. Like I'm on holidays and how dare I have a nice time and forget about him.

The food thing is a joke. I bought him a large chest freezer a year or so ago. Literally its 5% full. I buy food for him and if I buy more than hes asked for he goes mad and says he didnt want to spend that much money (we're talking £20 ($26) here mind).....

Of course, its a scam. If I buy enough food to last him by filling the freezer up then its his main bargaining chip gone. He can't then phone me and say "I really need you to visit to get some food for me - I've got no food".

disgusted - thing is brother enables him. Dad knows brother is a "supporter" of his needs but I'm not.

He lives 1 mile away, I live 25 miles. Hes got no kids to look after, I've got two inc teenager with aspergers and a 5 year old. His partner sits at home all day and doesn't work. My wife has fibromyaligia and struggles to work part-time.

He sees it all as easy. Why can't you help Dad? Hes old now and needs our help? He brought us up so why can't you help him now?

BUT, hes not the sharpest tool in the shed. When it suits him he will lie to Dad and tell him hes working or whatever. Even last weekend Dad was telling me how hes worked last 7 days 12 hour shifts - yet an hour earlier he'd checked in on facebook eating sunday lunch in the pub!

I think Paul did a good job, telling his dad why (no phone #), cuz it was intended to help dad perceive the struggle Paul has. (In our hope that dad could still care enough to "ease off" on certain behavior). I understand how it is to think we can reach them somehow, hoping for progress, & for them to know how hard we're trying. Paul obviously loves his dad, & is suffering.

Paulfoel123 - Upcoming vacation:

Do NOT give "heads up" as to when you are going. If you do, you will be hearing about it starting then right up to the departure. He doesn't need to know until you are leaving, if even then.

Do NOT discuss ANY of your plans with dad (no hotel/locations, etc) so he has no alternate way to contact you.

Tell brother you will not be accepting any calls.

If someone at work (employees, if you have them, or customers) needs some direction? Plan ahead and ask them to contact by text or email for emergencies or simple questions only. YOU can call them if they can't handle something. NO phone calls from them.

GO and turn the call ringer off on your phone. Change settings to make everything is as 'Do Not Disturb' as possible - phone, Facebook, etc. Turn off your "dad switch" and don't think about him or his issues. If there is truly an emergency, they will find a way to contact you. Even if there is, what would you do about it anyway, being so far away?

Go, cut loose and enjoy your time away!

The above applies to ANY planned getaways...

Just before (hold off to as close as the date you leave) do any preparations and necessary shopping. Ensure, regardless of his complaints about too much money or food, that you stock up enough that you know he won't run out. Clearly brother is into enabling, so you can't count on him to help with this.

No. Complete sentence. No. He persists, another NO and hang up. In person, same deal. No. No. Change the subject and/or leave.

As for brother, ensure he knows that this is a game dad is playing, pitting you against each other in a way and if HE is so concerned about dad, HE can go soothe him. If he does that, he will possibly become the target and perhaps will see how this goes!

In general I will repeat myself once, just to ensure the other person got the message. After that, move on.

Fair? How, fair?

You think you are being reasonable and logical: this is the case. This is why. I have now given you the reasons, you cannot contradict them, therefore you must accept them, therefore we now agree on the issue.

You are not being reasonable or logical, or in fact fair, because you are altogether overlooking your father's point of view. You are ignoring his thought process, pretending it doesn't exist, pretending he is different from what he is actually like.

He doesn't care about your reasons - why should he? All he knows is that he wants access to you at all times, he now has a bee in his bonnet about that including having your wife's number, he has set his sights on it. There is no reasoning to it.

So you keep setting up flimsy barriers, and he gnaws through them. Nag nag nag nag nag.

You put up just the one concrete barrier: I am not giving you wife's number. Let him break his teeth on it if he insists. It will get very dull, very boring, as concrete tends to be. But he won't get through it.

Jasmina. Yes hes exactly like that. In the past hes surprised me with the things hes tried to pull to get his own way. The thing with brother is really peeing me off. Hes worked out that brother is "on his side" so he gets him to contact me. Like you said divide and conquer.

We've had fake injuries, 999 calls the lot. Thing is though he must know hes done all this but seems to sweep in under the table and forget about it. Its like an elephant in the room he shoves in the closet quickly and never talks about again.

I think in all of this though it just hurts me how badly hes treated me last few years. I've been there for him and helped where I can but hes used some really dirty tricks to try and get what he wants.

Same with my wife. Hes done some really awful things in the past. But he doesnt see this. If I pointed out to him now that she doesnt want anything to do with him Im 100% sure he'd say why what have I done?

CM - I know I should but it only seems fair to tell him why. I know I know hes winning because he knows if he keeps on....

That is what narcissists do. If one idea doesnt work, go to the next, then the next then the next. It is a 2yr old tantrum in an adult body. I want what I want when I want it.
At every interaction watch how when he doesnt get his way, he will try another way.
You were right not to give out the number. He would use it to say hes sick, have a fall, an attack etc, to ruin your time alone.
Involving your brother is classic narc behavior. Divide and conquer. Hoping to control both you and him, and to make you feel guilt. Thereby controling you yet again. You need to work on the guilt. It will take time. Brush up on youtube vids on narcissistic behavior. Great ideas to stop it in its tracks. Good for you you didnt cave!!!!!

Yes, you can divorce your family. Why is that funny?

Not to kick a man when he's down, but no you didn't handle it correctly. Instead of saying "you're not getting the number" you said "you're not getting the number because you are a proven nuisance."

Why did you need to tell him that?

ALL you are interested in is not giving him the number. The reasons and arguments are an irrelevance. You do not need to discuss them. So don't discuss them.

Is there anything you would enjoy talking to your Dad about? We're looking for changes of subject, is the point of that question.

All went off a bit last night....

Not sure if I handled it correctly to be honest. I lost it and said "No you're not getting the number because, based on what you did last week, you'll abuse it and start hassling my wife". I also said, Im not letting you drag her into this and it'd would cause an argument if you did what you normally do.

So then I get the - Woe is me. "All I want is the number for emergencies. I would never phone her unless I really needed to". But he then also admitted he could use it to phone her for any health problems (shes a nurse remember).

No way Jose. Hes already upset his GP who won't come to visit him, ambulances won't come out. There is NO way hes using my wife to badger next.

Of course, as last week, hes told my brother. I'm getting facebook messages now about how I'm mean to Dad, how hes old and I'm making him worry about things, and why can't I just be nice to him. Brother now blocked on facebook- had enough.

This tittle tattle by Dad to brother seems to be his latest tactic. I do something he doesn't like so he gets brother on side to badger me too.

So can you divorce you're family? :-)

NYD - You're not wrong here. Yes its as if sometimes he thinks I owe him some of my time. I could tell you the times hes said something like "yes thats fine you go away for the weekend, I'll be fine".

As if I'm asking for his permission!

There are answering machines &/or caller ID for a reason.  After telling him NO and I'm hanging up now, hang up and do not pick up again if it is him. If a toddler wanted some candy right at suppertime, we tell him no, give a reason, then ignore, even if he throws a temper tantrum.  Good luck.

Paul: Do you ever wonder if dad forgot how to use a phone? OMG - my mother would drive me crazy when I called her from my home in Maryland to her home in Massachusetts. She scared me so bad because she would pick up the phone but wouldn't say hello! When I questioned her about it saying I'll have no option but to call 911 because I have to assume that you're on the floor. Her response - "I was getting situated." Say what?!!

My husband would not stand for it if his father behaved as does yours. "No" is a complete sentence but he does not want to accept that from you because he does not respect you as an adult and as a married man. Only you can change that dynamic!

Stop repeating yourself. Learn to say something like "Dad, we've talked about this and the answer is no." If he continues to badger you, end the conversation with "Dad, I'm hanging up now" and hang up the phone. If he calls back, let his call go to voicemail.

When we do manage to get away (very infrequent), my husband does not call his father. You are not 12 years old, and you do not need to check in with your father. What makes you think that you owe him your vacation time? How is your wife going to feel while she's in Spain wanting to enjoy your vacation and you're futzing with your dad?

NeedHelp - OMG imagine the grief with someone living with you..... 24/7.

I've got to phone him tonight and it'll come up again. And then probably tomorrow.

I know you're all right of course but it just wears me down....

Paul,

I get it. My mom has done the same as your dad. Trust me it will stop if you stop feeding it. Yes, he has been conditioned to be the way he is. It takes work to reverse it but is possible. I’ve done it with mom and she lives me me! I heard it every single day. I had to do something about it.

Good answer, Kimber

Paul - you need to end the conversation.

"I need your wife's number"
"No"
"what if i can't get ahold of you" - now the argument is starting - don't argue.
"I've already told you i'm not giving it to you. I'm not talking about this anymore. I have to go. Bye, i love you"

The reason he wins and wears you down is that you argue with him. Shut it down. Hang up. Who gives a rats AZZ what he or your brother think? Shut down both of them.

Give Dad a fake number that is never answered, or an emergency number, like APS, the local memory care facility, or a disconnected number.

Easier said than done... How?

"I'm not giving you her number."
"I'm not giving you her number."

Saying it is literally all you have to do.

Why not?
Doesn't matter. I'm not giving you her number.
What if I need it?
I'm not giving you her number.
What if I can't get hold of you?
I'm not giving you her number.

You may get very *bored*. But, in all seriousness, it's not difficult is it?

You don't seem to realise that the reason your father whines and pushes and goes on and on is that he believes CORRECTLY that if he keeps it up he will get his own way. Stop proving him right. Say to him "I'm not giving you her number" and keep saying it.

Brother can say what he likes. The variation on the theme for use on him is "Dad's not getting her number."

Ha ha its easier said than done with him. Remember hes had a lifetime of having his own way and things working out how he wants them. And a family who, in general, have enabled him.

Past experience has shown he wont let it go. If there is something he doesn't like he'll want to know why. Yes I have tried in the past not to argue back with reasons.

Two days later he'll phone again, then again, then again. It'll go on for weeks- why not? whats the reason? etc etc etc. then he'll escalate it if thats not working. I'll get "woe is me", "all I want is the number for an emergency". His latest then is to tell tales to my brother who will then facebook me telling me how awful I am being to Dad and should remember hes old and he brought us up.

Honestly, he absolutely hates not being in control and getting what he wants. In his head, he has a valid reason for needing my wifes no. I know full well its all about him and hes thinking he'll have another way to contact me if he needs to.

But yes I know I should just answer NO. But it just wears me down at the moment....