It's been a hard week....

Paul, I think looking into a more rounded view of your childhood is a splendid idea IF your purpose is to better understand your own family of origin and how their actions, behaviors and intentions shaped your childhood. NOT if your intention is to throw something in dad's face.

If you were in therapy and you told your story, your therapist would ask "how do you know that?" "what makes you think that that's true?" and "I wonder what your other parent would say about that version of the facts?".

Go into this with an attitude of naive, evenly-hovering inquiry, not a quest for dirt or blame.

The stirring up will happen within you. Make sure you are ready for it.

Paul this sounds awful but positive for you, though not for your poor little niece. You say that Dad is “getting worse and worse, pushing more and more. Yes I'm trying to take on board the advice on here but I'm finding I want less and less to do with him” Try AND, not BUT. Yours, Margaret

polar - my brother and his new wife disgust me to be honest.... And my Dad does at the moment. They are both just scumbags.

I know she did live with her gran for a bit but, apparently, something has happened between the gran and her mother and her gran has had enough. Probably not stopped her drinking to be honest.

I would help but it would be tough for us to be honest. To be honest we struggle now with out autistic teenager, 5 year old and my wife's illness.
Also, I'm still hopeful my brother will step up. Hes like my Dad if he can get someone else to do it for him he will. If I step in, then he'll just continue on as he is and think great problem solved.

Oh yes, my brother should never have children. As I said, he's got two more he never sees. Not bothered AT ALL. He posts on facebook now and again Woe is me I don't see my kids. I offered to help once - found out you can get a court order to force mother to reveal whereabouts. Cost was £200 ($250) - told him he said "nah not paying that". Now I don't bother. Kids are disposable to him - he leaves them with mother and moves on to next woman.

You might be spot on about my Dad though. He thinks of my kids as a "hindrance". To be honest, with everything, I can see it all coming to a head to be honest. Hes getting worse and worse, pushing more and more. Yes I'm trying to take on board the advice on here but I'm finding I want less and less to do with him.

As for my brother, I've never thought much of him. After this, I really dont want someone like this in my life at all.

CM - Maybe he does remember it not being a great time to be honest. I have always wondered though.

To take on custody of 2 toddlers on your own as a man, in 1972 is a BIG BIG step to take. I just don't think Dad has got it in him or ever did. This is the man who would never get a washing machine because "its too complicated" and "its womens work". Dad has spent his life assuming he can;t do something without finding out first I just don't see him making this huge jump without being forced into it to be honest.

As his "advice" to my brother shows his attitude is and always has been "work first, family can take a back seat". (personally, work comes about no 10 on my list below the cat!)

But aware that things may be skewed from my aunties point of view. Mother is still alive. Not seen her much. Shes not blameless. Hardly saw her for years and years. Shes just not part of my life.

Know what you mean though - I just want to know though.

Awful for my niece. My wife wants to take her on - bless her. BUT it'd be too much for us to be honest, and, secondly, it'd give my brother an easy out. I'm hoping he will still wise up.

Lets just say his new wifes attitude makes me dislike her even more. Shes told my Dad she can't possibly help because she works. Shes self employed decorator so she could manage her own hours surely. Of course, I see her on facebook. I'd estimate 2-3 days per month work, rest lunching with friends or sleeping.

Maybe a nice foster family will be better for her. My family are unbelievable. How on earth can you refuse to take on your own kid because "its inconvenient with work"?

I did point out to my Dad that how on earth does he think everyone else manages? i.e. us. One of you works child-friendly hours, or you have after school clubs, or pay for childminders. I nearly exploded when Dad said "yes but he can't afford to pay for that". Typical short sighted narrow minded Dad.

I'm just so annoyed with the pair of them - at the moment I want nothing to do with them. I know its my brother kids not mine but, recently, we just seem at polar opposites with our outlook on life. They're in the gutter to be honest. I still can't believe they both think its ok......

Paul - I feel so bad for your niece. Are you or any other relative in the position to take her in? If she's lucky, she ends up in a loving foster family, if not, then she might be worse off than being with an alcoholic mom. Really, some people should never have children.

As for your dad, my guess is that he doesn't want your brother to spend any time and attention on the child, because that might mean less time and attention on him. It's all about HIM, remember? The granddaughter can disappear for all he cares.

Paul, perhaps your father has over the years come to think with some bitterness that raising children is a thankless task. Also much more effort than you fondly imagine when you first take it on.

You can by all means ask your aunt for your mother's side of the story, but promise me that if you do so you will bear in mind that what you see depends on where you stand, and there's no particular reason why her narrative should be any more reliable than your Dad's.

Do not do this, certainly, with the intention of adding more to your Book of Grudge against your father.

I was thinking over the weekend, about an unrelated problem, that we spend a lot of time counselling people to shed their anger and trying to figure that out for ourselves, too; but to my mind bitterness is at least as destructive an emotion.

Is your mother still alive?

I'm sorry to read about your niece. To be honest, it must be best for her that she is looked after by people who are a) up for it, b) trained, and c) supervised, don't you think? It's a crappy thing for any kid to have to go through, but not nearly as crappy as the terror and danger of coping with an alcoholic parent when you're seven. Poor little moppet. Hope this proves to be a new page for her.

Been thinking too. Not sure if I said before but my parents divorced when I was 4 (brother was 3). Lived in Edmonton, Canada. Dad always told me he chose to bring us home to uk and have custody. (This was 48 years ago!)

His attitude towards my brothers kids makes me thinks if I don't know the whole story here. Like I said hes advised my brother that its "too much hassle" to look after his own kid because "work is more important". I just can't see how he would have chosen to do this himself all those years ago. Hes shown the last 20 years or so that he is a very narrow minded and selfish man. It just doesnt compute that he'd do this. (It was early 70s too - pretty much unheard of having a single Dad with kids at this time).

I don't have contact with my mother but I do have contact with her sister. I am toying with the idea of getting the story from her. I've got a massive suspicion that Dad has lied to me all these years.

Hes 84 now, it was almost 50 years ago. What do you all think? Should I stir it all up?

Heard something about my brother this weekend. I've probably mentioned before. Hes got 3 kids from 2 different relationships. And just got married again. Never bother with kids - he sees them as expendable every time he gets a new relationship.

Anyway, last kid (whos about 7) lives with her mother. Like I said brother never bothers. Anyway, shes got an alcohol problem and social services have told her she can't have her kid with her.

Of course, they've contacted my brother (as he is the dad). Hes said he can't have her because he works and she'll have to go out to fostering. (His new wife doesn't work at all so can't see why she can't help).

Absolutely disgusting IMHO. Let him try and badger me now about not helping with Dad. I'll be mentioning I don't have the option of farming my kids out to someone else.

Worse still Dad agrees with him that he should do this. OMG - My family are scumbags......

Paul: You must be going crazy with dad. Sending prayers.❤❤
My mother never listened to a word I said. I asked her why. Her response - "I was thinking about what I was going to say to you." Geez - communication gap much.

disgusted - I've just been away (Spain) and did just that. I told him DO NOT expect a call at 1am uk time when I get there and I will call you next day.

I told him DO NOT start with the "I was worried something had happened to you" either. He does this all the time and it drives me up the wall! Mobile/cell coverage is patchy where we were in spain anyway.

I did speak to him (monday) - we back very late last night. I told him monday, Ok Im here etc etc had a chat will speak friday when I'm back. Otherwise he expects a call every day when I'm away and its just too much.

Copy many of these helpful responses and suggestions.  Vent all you want, but if you want a solution, look at these again.  Good luck.  Change is hard, but your Dad is sick, and YOU are the adult.

Your dad will start in on something. You respond and he starts backtracking. Because he didnt get the response he was looking for! That response is you jumping thru whatever hoop he set up. Hell drop that subject, and take up another one. Hes used to getting his way.

If I were you, Id fill his freezer and pantry up with food. He would throw a fit. Id say problem solved, your always complaining about no food. Let him go off about it being too much. Too bad. Let him rant, SO WHAT. Thats when you walk away. He cant argue with himself.

You have to get a back bone. Your still in little boy/son mode around him. You need to be in adult stand your ground and not be in manipulated mode. You will get there if that is your goal. Stop over analyzing every interaction. Your doing it out of guilt. You are an adult who doesnt have to make excuses for wanting a private life and jumping when called.

Interact with dad and be done with it. Dont engage in arguments, second guessing or rehashing the interaction. Interact and say this is going to happen. Thats it no discussion. Think of yourself like a CEO. You tell it like it is going to happen, and leave it at that. Nip any debates in the bud. No this is how it is. Then walk away or onto the next task. Youll get the hang of it! Just keep thinking like a boss when you walk in there. Would a boss take crap? No. Good luck.

paul: I had to live out of state with my elderly mother - FOR EIGHT MONTHS. Just about went crazy because my mother was a "sugar coater." Didn't even tell her doctor her ailments!

The following post you made may hold the clue to what you have to do, but be consistent and repeat as needed:

You posted:
[CM - yes I said, "look, if you're struggling then maybe we need to see about alternatives that we discussed the other day"

He mumbled "no no no" and changed the subject. Happens a lot with Dad he'll start on about something, I'll turn it around, he'll then try to backtrack and he'll then sweep it under the carpet and back off.

Does it with the home delivery thing. He'll say "I've got no food", I'll say "I'll arrange home delivery", he'll mumble and say "no I'll be ok" and backtrack.]

IF he starts on something, do what you have done before - suggest the alternative he DOESN'T want - the "home". Can't cope, having medical issue, need food - hey, there's a nice place, XYZ home, I found for you where they can manage everything for you. You get immediate care/treatment, they provide food, transport, cleaning, laundry, etc. If he backs off and says no no no, then your response is that's all you have to suggest and give him the silent treatment (or hang up.) Might be good to have the name of several places, then if he balks, what about ABC place? No? Maybe JKL place?

You say he starts on something else when you suggest these options, then repeat the name of the place(s).... Counter every argument HE makes with that and nothing more. You can stonewall just as well as he can. But, I need... XYZ home dad.... No, I meant... ABC home dad. Repeat the names for each of his attempts to skirt the issues. Make it into a game for yourself - you might actually start to enjoy it!!

BTW, I mentioned using the 'Do Not Disturb' on your phone when on ANY holiday, but wasn't sure about Facebook as I don't use it, however your brother does. The search on it hit a few articles dated last year about testing it. It appears they DO have it, so whenever on holiday, at the least during the hours of family time/trips/activities/meals, turn this on along with the phone option. If later you want to check on things, you can undo the settings and get messages. But reserve that for quiet time, after kids are in bed, etc. Review and delete whatever is inconsequential. There is NO need for anyone to have instant contact while you are on vacation. What did people do before FB and cellphones?

"Honestly, I have made massive progress. A few years ago, I'd just at everything he asked and it caused me huge problems at home. Now I don't."

"I've started to say no to things as everyone tells me. Hes realised things are changing and is trying to combat it. "

Bravo!!! Paul. I know it's not easy. It's easier said than done. For many of us, we are so well trained to obey and please our parents, it takes us being pushed into a corner and getting fed up before we act. I'm so glad you're making progress, slow, but progress it is.

Vent here as much as you want. And I, too, agree that seeing a therapist might help you see your dysfunctional relationship with your dad in a new healthier way. Please consider it.

Probably right. I've had problems in the past. I do tend to let things get to me.
It does help me venting a little on here.

Things are getting there. Changed a lot over the last year maybe not as quickly as I should.

I see people who live with they're elderly relatives. Jeez- I think I'd last one day...

Paul you really puzzle me. You have been saying much the same things about your difficult father for months and months and months. You have also been getting similar responses on the site every time. Do you enjoy making all these complaints? Are you changing your own behaviour, in line with all the response suggestions? It is almost sounding as though you have obsessive compulsive leanings, focussed on father and complaining about him, rather than whether you turned the gas off like most OCD people. Do you think it would help if saw a counsellor about your own behaviour? Please help yourself, and you do know how.

Paul, use questions.

So, you're not sure how you're going to carry on managing - what are your thoughts, looking ahead?

No food? Oh dear. What will you do?

Questions put the onus on your father to suggest options. If *you* suggest options, he can just satisfy and amuse himself by knocking them down.

Meanwhile, get on with your shortlist of possible care homes. Have you in fact done anything at all about finding one that would suit him?

You definitely do need a therapist. Here is an example of why. You just there wrote about how your father told you he was having breathing difficulties and you jumped in your car and rushed over there - what is it, forty minute drive? But anyway -

1. WHEN did this last happen? It was months if not years ago, wasn't it. And you're still feeling stressed about it. And you think you don't need help.

2. If you really believed your father was having real difficulties with breathing, would you also *really* believe that driving to his house is the best thing to do? No. You know that as well as I do. "Is the person breathing?" is famously the first thing emergency call handlers ask. So you knew you were responding not rationally, not even appropriately, but emotionally; and you still bear a grudge about it all this time later; and you're blaming your old dad for it. And you think you don't need help.

Your father is not going to change. To cope with him, YOU need to change how you respond to him. You will need help with that. It is widely available.

CM - yes I said, "look, if you're struggling then maybe we need to see about alternatives that we discussed the other day"

He mumbled "no no no" and changed the subject. Happens a lot with Dad he'll start on about something, I'll turn it around, he'll then try to backtrack and he'll then sweep it under the carpet and back off.

Does it with the home delivery thing. He'll say "I've got no food", I'll say "I'll arrange home delivery", he'll mumble and say "no I'll be ok" and backtrack.

Paul I'd be even more pleased to hear that you'd caught his remark deftly and used it to begin a constructive conversation, for example by asking "have you been thinking about how best to manage, Dad?" Is that what happened?

jasmina - yes I guess. Hes done it in the past. Many times hes upped the ante.

I've had "chest tight, can't breathe" more than once. Rushed over and hes fine.

Hes done it to medical people too. He called the doc out a few times, but they said he was fine, he was convinced he should be in hospital. So he called ambulance they said same. Next day he cut his head on the cupboard door and got his wish. A very dodgy injury too which which the hospital agree was probably self-inflicted.

CM - You'll be pleased to hear I did mention a home when he said that. End of conversation - he let that one go and moved onto something else.

Therapy - oh yes I know. Got many years experience of "issues" myself so know the score. Probably why I get so stressed about Dad.

Alas, its not cheap and my private health doesn't cover that.

Your dad and brother have upped the anti bc what they were doing before isnt working now. So it will increase. And a few new things in their bag of tricks thrown in too. You must be mentally prepared for it!
So dont be surprised if dad has a good fall, starts throwing up bc the food is bad. Only you can provide food he can eat. Dont be surprised if the calls increase bc now brother is in on it. Dont be surprised if you get the snotty crying hiccupping jags that you have abandoned him and he is sooo alone.

Remember you re the one that can control how you react to them. If questioned about your whereabouts, you dont remember, was indispoded etc. You were charging your phone, forgot your phone, in an area with no reception. You get the idea. Dodge the questions. Or go full grey rock. No response, no answer, indifferent. Stay strong.

Every family has to manage their personalities & pain, these situations can bring the worst out in anyone. But you're lucky that you can get away occasionally... That's very helpful I'm sure, just a change of scenery works wonders! In the meantime, you're getting better at not being as easily "triggered" by their comments, I think. Keep going one day at a time☺.

And Paul, therapy WORKS. I could give you a whole hour's worth of comedy material - light bulb jokes, you're fine how am I, I can clearly see you're nuts - but your pain is no joke and the therapies are not imaginary.

"I don't know how much longer I can cope on my own".

He said that to you, and you didn't jump in the car, swoop down there and stick him in a care home?

What did you say? PLEASE don't tell me you let that remark go by.

Ha ha perhaps I do need therapy lol.

I've started to say no to things as everyone tells me. Hes realised things are changing and is trying to combat it.

I've had the illness this week - not unexpected since I'm away for a few days next week. I've had the "I don't know how much longer I can cope on my own".
He still hasnt given up on trying to get my wifes number. I do ignore that now.

MASSIVELY?

Like?

This is the point. Your father is old and helpless. Your brother is never going to do anything more energetic than post on Facebook. So... They are doing what to you? What can they do to you?

I don't know whether you're ignoring or missing the point.

As with Sonny, so with Dad, so with Bro.

The pain, stress, whatever you experience is not coming from them. They can't DO anything. It is coming from YOU.

And I don't mean stop running around after your father. Actually, I think if you spent more organised time on your Dad and less on dodging him and arguing with him and having panic attacks about him, it might be better for both of you.

I mean examine your responses to these stimuli and see what you can do to correct them. If you found a CBT therapist - there are zillions, you can't go for a stroll in Wales without tripping over one - and had half a dozen sessions it would be money well spent. And actually, you've got private medical insurance, haven't you? - so much the better, have a look and see if you're covered.

CM - Not bad. Pretty accurate most of this stuff here :-)

Yes I know I take it to heart. Sonny just reminds me of my brother and rest of my family. Heard it a million times. All they see is one side of the argument "but hes old and needs help". They NEVER see the other side which, as you know, is me trying to balance OTHER peoples needs as well, and also Dad sitting there ordering people around because he can't be bothered.

Honestly, I have made massive progress. A few years ago, I'd just at everything he asked and it caused me huge problems at home. Now I don't.
As I've tried to step away though, both Dad and brother have upped things MASSIVELY recently. Im trying though...

Being told to count your blessings can be quite irritating, I know.

But Paul, this is not a rhetorical question: why are you SO annoyed by what Sonny said?

If you think about that carefully, and link it with why you find it so heavily oppressive when your father makes demands and so painful when your half-wit brother makes digs on Facebook, and go on to think about why you take such things so much to heart, I do honestly think this might be a first step to regaining your sense of proportion.

Your father says "do my shopping." Some people would say "delighted to!" and some people would say "do your own, you silly old sod" and some people would say fine and call Ocado; but you? You're bowed down by his asking you, whether or not you finally give in. It's crazy.

Your father thinks he should be into every nook and cranny of your life, and that he's entitled to expect you to do everything for him. Your brother thinks you're underworked (it's not real work, you don't get your hands dirty) and massively overpaid (think: Bill Gates) and that it won't hurt you to pull your weight. But neither of these things is a problem, because neither your father nor your brother has any authority in your life. The *problem* is that you keep agreeing with them. Stop it!