It's been a hard week....

Sigh.

Paul, suppose you do get called out from Friday night to Monday morning. Your father won't starve. You know he won't starve. HE knows he won't starve. Heavens! - even if the huskies can't get through and there literally is no food in the house, nor in any of the shops and takeaways and pizza delivery companies in the area, and he didn't eat all weekend, he would still not starve. He'd get jolly peckish, but he'd be fine.

So this "you've got to come, cancel everything else, the cupboard is bare" riff is just that. It's a riff. It isn't a real conversation.

The element that is real is that he would like some attention. And given that it is Father's Day, whatever one might think about cynical marketing ploys, it's not unreasonable on this occasion to think that you might perhaps want to set some time aside for him.

Of course I understand that you'd be a lot more disposed to want to if he didn't give you earache all week. And you'd have thought that he might realise that, too. But you know he doesn't realise that. He thinks nagging works better.

How likely, in percentage terms, is it that you will get down there at the weekend?

My Dad certainly does not give up. Never seen such dedication to getting what he wants!

Spoke to him last weekend.

"Are you coming up next weekend? I hope you can, its fathers day and I've got no food"
"Yes Dad I plan to. I am on call though so I will have to confirm with you on the day".

Tuesday
"I really hope you can come Sunday. I've got no food and xyz (brothers GF) is ill this week" (saw pics on facebook of two large beer sessions but there we go!"
"Yes Dad, we already discussed this but remember I'm on call"
"Can't you cancel on call?"
"No Dad"

Wednesday
"Im really going to be stuck if you don't come Sunday. I've been stuck in all week so you'll have to take me out too. If you don't come I wont have any food. You'll have to come even if you're on call".
(more lies hes had meals on wheels all week, I know hes been out and I know brother has done shopping for him".

Got to admit I exploded this time. Had enough of the constant badgering and guilt-tripping.... Its all the time now. He'll mention something 50 times if he thinks he get it to sink in even more.

In the end I told him, that for about the 5th time, I plan to come but I'm on call. It is out of my hands what happens. If I'm up all night or in the middle of a call out, I won't be coming - end off. I also said, I've mentioned home delivery about 10 times - if he chooses not to accept this then he can **** well starve......

Hes not happy....

Not sure if I have the patience or energy to continue like this..... It is sort of working with the NO thing but he just won't give up. Please tell me he will stop soon....

margaret - where was this post?

Hi Paul, Did you read this morning’s post that ended: “At some point, we have to realize people are always revealing to us who they really are. Takers will keep taking, but it doesn’t need to be you that gets took.” Good one!

jasmina - tell me about it...... Lets just say my opinions on this and my brother and Dads opinions differ MASSIVELY.

I feel sorry for the poor child. She is going to think her parents and family dont want her. Thats gonna do a number on her for life

Jasmina - Definitely. Hes said this to me that hes old so I've got to put him first and my family will have to understand. As you know, even I was willing, it'd be impossible..... (I've mentioned a few times on here but I've really got enough on my plate as it is with my own)...

Of course that did cross my mind. Hes since told me hes "disappointed" I didn't take him out last weekend. I do wonder if hes thinking - hang on if 2nd son takes on his own kids thats another son who might be deflected from focusing on him 100%.

your doing everything that you should do. so don't let bother you.

Paul- he tells your brother to let daughter go to foster care- yes? He also told you to leave your daughter's bday party to go see him. Seems like he wants to come 1st. I dont think he wants his sons to say my child comes 1st.
A nac is a narc is a narc

Paul I had to laugh about your Porsche comment ! I had a Porsche when I got married.. and indeed I have never had one since!

CM - ha ha don;t think dad has got it in him to do something like that to be honest! He always goes with the flow and does what people expect of him.

But I know what you mean! Hes no way the world worst Dad of course hes not.

Know what you mean about my niece. I was wondering that too to be honest....

Nah don't think Dad thinks that. Hes is honestly just doing his usual attitude to kids.

He had his good points when I was a kid. Not for lack of effort at times with my Dad he was good but, looking back, he was just so stubborn and set in his ways. Heart was in the right place.

One thing he always pushed me in school. So to be fair, I went from rough council estate, rubbish high school, to degree, to running my own successful business...

BUT I have had my own "issues" over the years with things like depression/anxiety. I do always wonder how things when I was a kid have affected me.

Paul, of *course* he had a choice. He could've f***ed off to Australia, married someone else, gone to work in the North Sea. But he didn't. He hung about and plodded on.

Not necessarily with a good grace! And not necessarily as World's Best Dad. But nobody would even have been *surprised* if he'd said sod this and bolted.

With your poor little niece, there is an argument that the care system - sheesh - might be a better bet for her. At its best, it could give her security and stability much better than she's had so far; and it's got to be preferable to landing her in a household where she's overtly unwanted. It just crosses my mind to wonder if your Dad wonders, ever, if it might have been better all round for all of you, too. Maybe he doesn't think he made much of a job of it.

Try telling him that 'good enough' is good enough, some time.

CM - I agree. Of course it must have been tough.

I still don't understand how he tells my brother not to do it and to put his own child into care now though. Its a whole lot easier now and brother has a partner to help him.

I just think he was given no choice at all back then, thats all.

Paul, yes. He had to work. Not many family-friendly policies around in those days, that's for sure. What option did he have but to rope in other family members?

He got your clothes seen to - he did walk round to his mum's after all, instead of down to the pub or the club. He presumably opened a can of beans nightly and put fish fingers under the grill. Day in, day out. If nowadays he thinks anybody must be a mug to volunteer for this, are you going to tell him he's wrong?

Or would it have been better if he'd had you taken into care?

In a way, the more slapdash the job he made of parenting, the more credit it is to you that you've left it behind and - even more important - broken the pattern.

But speaking of patterns. If he ploughed on grudgingly with a job only because it was too painful and difficult for him to say no... Who does that remind you of?!

CM - To be honest not my Dad a lot of the time. He roped in his family who pretty much took it in turns to look after us.

He deffo didn't wash our clothes (remember his attitude to washing machines). He'd fill a suitcase, walk a mile or so with us on a sunday over to his mothers (my grans) who'd do all the washing then he'd carry it home.

So while you and your brother were growing up, through primary and secondary school, who washed your clothes and changed your beds and made your dinners?

Jasmina - to clarify. I was born in the UK, as were all my family. My parents emigrated to Edmonton, Canada when I was 3 (brother was 2). They got divorced and Dad moved back to the UK - mother stayed in Canada and never came back....

I hear what you're saying, of course, I don't know the full story. She has family in the UK so could have come home at the same time but, apparently, did not want to.

But I can't see my Dad doing all of this willingly - at some point he would have been made to do this somehow. This was 1972 - not the the thing to be a single dad in those days.... I can tell you now first thing in Dad mind would have been - "Its not right a man bringing up kids".

This is the guy who won't use a washing machine because "its womens work", thinks it inappropriate to share a house with someone of the opposite sex (i.e. house mate) etc. This is the guy who last week, advised my brother his daughter would have to go into care because "you can't help look after her you've got work".

Taking on parental responsibility - I'd put my house on him not doing that willingly.

Jasmina - to be honest the worse he treats me the more it becomes clear to me.If anything it makes it easier to put my foot down...

Probably if he just limited his behaviour I'd be silly enough to let him get away with it.

Paul your dad not only got custody, but moved to a diff continent. Do think he did that to make it harder for mom to visit? To an outsider. Yes. Do you think mr ego would show up for a visit after she saved $ for a plane tx and tracked down where you lived? Remember women made way less $ back then. Not a little bit less, a heck of a lot less.
She might not have had $ to take him to court to fight for custody. Might not have had $ to get an apartment, let alone pay for food for kids. Maybe she thought he had more $ to care for you. Or he told her she'll never get/see the kids. Can only leave with shirt on your back? Cant get alimony if in another country. Harder to get child custody.
She might have thought yor dad would turn you against her. Hes a narc. Do you think a narc would leave no stone unturned to win?
I think now women can go to a lawyer if they need help. A sliding scale. Probably wasnt resources for her to turn to, as there are today.
Worth it to hear the aunt's side of story.

Before you go to dads house, or return phone call, practice your answers. Such as: that doesnt work for me, my schedule, family etc. Cant. Im not doing that. Thats not happening.

NO is a complete sentence. Then remind yourself to be silent after saying no. That way your not caught off guard. Also remind yourself to give him 1 warning. Im hanging up now when he or brother says something rediculious. Also remember when his antics dont work he gets brother to manipulate for him.

Screen calls. They need to leave message. Dont return call without knowing what they want. Put it off till when its convenient FOR YOU. Your still jumping thru hoops via answering the phone. Stop that. Good luck

Yeah paul!!! Your growing a backbone!!! And losing the guilt. Way to go! The guilt the narc makes you feel for not doing their bidding. They have planted that seed in your head since you were a kid. Thats why its so hard to get rid of, or deprogram yourself. But your your own person now, not a scared kid forced to do something.

If brother says dad told me you did this -- dont dignify it with an answer. It just draws you back in to the whole narc guilt and gaslighting. Trying to explaine/convince what really happened. NO!!!! Just say I wont dignify that with an answer. You know dad. Then walk away. Let brother think what he wants. Hes not you judge or jury. He doesnt get to judge your actions. It prob wouldnt end in your favor anyway. Just add another layer of guilt. Thats his way of manipulation.

If you stock the pantry whats dad going to do? Throw all the food out? Doubtful. Grumble? Definitely, but just say you start that, and I walk out. Then do it.
Your not being mean. Your establishing NORMAL boundries that have been ignored for decades. If he throws a tantrum walk away. Your the adult and hes the child throwing a tantrum. You wouldnt tolerate being emotionally blackmailed by your child. Hes no different.
Sure it will guilt you, but its a muscle that hasnt been exercised in a long time. It gets easier as time goes on. You can even say I love you, but Im not doing that. Good job!!! 👍👍👍🏅

Praying this hard week ends soon. You've been through h - e - double hockey sticks, Paul!

Polar - I always tell me wife if I'd never got married and had kids I'd have a Porsche by now..... ;-)

Polar - yes to be honest I do feel much better. After the call I just thought "tough luck" you've had it. Feel much calmer....

To be honest, the conversation we had about my brother and kids sort of made me realise. He's my Dad but we're different people and he is an A@se. If he doesn't like the way I do things he can do one....

Yes she does ice hockey as well. Even more expensive!!!! (bought a lot of that stuff 2nd hand though).

I'm sorry I'm not willing to tell a 6 year old they can't do something I'd promised to do with them just because my Dad decides he wants someone to boss around. 90% of the time its this to be honest with him.

I've also decided I'm not running around doing pointless things just because he likes it that way.

No more unnecessary shopping trips (which is you remember are over an hour round trip drive for me) unless I'm going there anyway. If its an emergency he can accept delivery or starve....

Same with the health thing. He listens to the health professionals and what they advise him. If he won't listen then its not my job to sort it out. If he moans then I'm not getting involved.

Hardest one for me. I am NOT getting into conversations about my life. For too long he's had this idea that he can have an opinion on EVERYTHING, my relationship, my kids, my finances. No more. He'll be getting one warning to mind his own business then I'll be leaving/putting the phone down.

Very good! Paul.

You stood your ground and didn't budge.
You kept it on your terms.
You stayed calm and didn't argue with him.
You didn't give explanations or justifications for why you couldn't comply.
You distracted him by changing the subject.
You realized dad is an _ss,
You ignored enabling brother's call.

Most important, you got your priorities straight. You were there for your daughter and wife. You're a good dad and husband.

Ten points for each category. ;D

p.s. My daughter was also into ice skating a few years ago. Now she's into gymnastics and contortion and dance. Next year, she wants to take up acrobatics. Those classes aren't cheap. My husband said the reason he cried when the kids were born was because he knew his money was leaving his wallet. Haha.

CM - hard work. Fortunately, its quiet a large space (ice rink) so not too bad. Even the room where they had the food was large.

Dad is not happy. Rang me again today at 10am (I'm in work can't it wait?).....
Just to remind me that its Fathers Day next sunday and I really ought to visit him.....

Jeez. I planned to anyway but to be told whats "expected" of me really gets my goat....

Excellent progress.

How was the party? Are you still deaf??? [remembering the pitch and volume of excited six year old girls in an enclosed space]

Well, I did well this weekend. Getting there....

It was my little girls bday party on sunday - dad knew this. I'm at the ice rink 745am every sunday for training (shes well into ice skating) This week we'd tagged her party onto the so pretty much all day I was there.

10am Dads ringing. Always a bad sign when he rings early in the day.

"Are you coming up to see me today, I want to go out for a ride in the car?". "No dad".

"Why not? I want to go out I've been stuck in all week". (No he hasn't I've seen pics of him out to lunch with my brother 2 days ago).
"No I'm busy".

"You're at her party aren't you?"
"Yes dad". (So he does remember that I've got something on today. Annoys me how he refers to my kids, his grandchildren!!!).

"Well, I tell you what, let you're wife deal with that and you can come to see me". (What a thing to say - I've got to miss my own 6 year old daughters party because he demands a visit. Also, my wife (the devil) now has no name it seems).

"No Dad. Did you see the cricket score the other day?" (Changing the subject seems to work - yay !!!!)

Doing OK. Not so wound up as before. I'm getting my head around it a bit. I've come to realise that even though hes my Dad, and I love him, he is actually a complete a@hole. So I'm not making excuses anymore - it is what it is and if he doesnt like the deal....

Still didnt stop him speaking to my dear brother who a few hours later text me with his opinion on how I should take him out like he does as well.. Ignored that completely. I'll block his number if he carries on...

Hi Paul, you may remember from earlier post exchanges that my mother was a single parent from 1952, children 8, 5 &2, and unlike your Dad she didn’t get equal pay, was socially ostracised, and no-one told her that she was doing a great job. She was very bitter about my father’s behaviour, which was atrocious, but I didn’t know much of the detail until my father went into a Nursing Home and sent me the transcripts of the repeated Court proceedings, which he had kept for 60 years. I had long since gone through the normal adolescent stage of thinking that he can’t have been that bad, and trying to make some sort of relationship with him (unlike my younger sister after he tried to push her down a flight of stairs). It put the flesh on the stories. Then he asked for the transcript back again - he missed re-reading all those satisfyingly dreadful things he said!

A guess for what it’s worth – your father was a pain in the but, and your mother found someone else who was more attractive. He tried to blackmail her by keeping the kids, and then learned to love the adulation he got for being such a great father. Perhaps other women rushed to help. Your mother has always felt guilty about what happened. My suggestion is that if you do contact her, offer her some sympathy and ask for some yourself. It would be a good way to try to get to know her, better than just asking questions. Learning the other side of family stories is always interesting, if upsetting, but finding a mother is more important, probably for both of you. And it’s a practical way to make at least some change in a situation that goes on and on and on for you.

Best wishes, Margaret

Barb - No definitely not. I don't even plan to mention any of my findings to my Dad to be honest. Would achieve nothing.

But I'm getting to the point where I do sort of KNOW that there is something else to the whole story. There just has to be based on the way he sees the world to be honest.

At the moment, Dad, I think, relies a lot on this "well I brought you up on my own when you were little so you owe me". He hasn't said it outright but I can tell. (Brother has said this MANY times!).

I try not to feel guilty but I do when I push him away at the moment. If I had confirmation that hes not exactly been truthful all these years then it would help me to put things into perspective.

Would it ruin our relationship? Probably. But its been ruined anyway last few years to be honest, as its become more and more apparent of how he thinks and what he will do.