It's been a hard week....

No. They don't. What happens is that a lien is placed against the value of the home and it's reclaimed after the person's decease, just as happens with Medicaid in the US. He won't feel a thing.

It doesn't matter, it won't make any difference to him because actually money isn't the reason -

just for example, you could remind him that he won't have to pay for food or utilities any more, all his cash will be disposable income

- it's that a) he doesn't like change (who does) and b) he's happier being miserable. But you *don't* *have* *to* *join* *in.*

I have to say, £95 a month for a one-person household sounds a lot to me. What's his account balance? Suppliers do hike DDs routinely but they still have to justify it, and if he's in credit then they can't and you can beat them back down again.

Thing is CM, don't they take into account the value of your home too?
If so, LONG way to go before you get to £23K.

An example of how he is with the money. I sort out his gas/elec and he pays by direct debit. As you probably know, they change the DD sometimes its never that great. It increased from £75 a month to £95 a month.

It was as if his whole family had died in a house fire. For weeks! He said he was upset and been worrying all week that they wanted an extra £20 a month off him. I said this is normal. He wanted me to phone them to check, ask for a discount because he was old. Eh?
It was crazy.

Of course, bearing in mind, £20 is nothing to him. His pensions far exceed his outgoings by £100s a week.

Then he tells me he had government winter fuel allowance of £300! Why on earth are you worried about £20 a month!

Imagine now £50K being "taken off him" and you can see why it would be problematic.

Polar. Exactly. He has a few basic ideas in his head which run things.

1. Hes ill and needs help.
2. His sons will help him with whatever he wants.
3. He is NEVER being put away in a home.
4. He wants to keep money and not waste it.

Obviously, as you say, it doesn't work.

Margaret/CM - I dread to think what would happen if and when the penny drops and the money is used for care homes.

Sounds dramatic I know but hes so attached to that money, I would worry he would literally give up.

NHWM/Polar - No still fighting back against EVER having it delivered. As I've said many times - huge stick for him that is.

He has meals on wheels 4 times a week - he could have a weekends too. They deliver it on a friday. He aint goinna starve. Hes got a huge freezer I bought him so he could store food for a month literally.

I go once every two weeks now. I used to go more but I know he tries to make it AT LEAST once a week so it works negatively for him because I'm avoiding the pattern.

I did his shoppiong yesterday. Literally £20. Hardly anything needed. Thats his other excuse- home delivery is £40 minimum. "Dont want to spend that much in one go".

Thing is he does have friends. He goes out, plays Bowls (not sure if you have that in the US). When he can be bothered. I do visit, I invite him out (he says no).

When my wife (whos a district nurse) tells me about some of the old people she sees who NEVER see anyone, I realise ho lucky Dad is but he doesnt see it.

Paul it would not literally literally kill your father if his savings were used to pay for care. It just wouldn't.

His feelings about money are tied in with his sense of wellbeing and security. One reason he hangs on to it so very tightly is that at least it's one thing he can control and rely on. Change his living environment to one where support is available round the clock and there are always people there, and you will improve his sense of security which will also change his perspective. Particularly once he appreciates that his £23,500 is his to keep come hell or high water.

But it doesn't matter - this is his decision to make, and social care policy will support his wish to stay at home. It's cheaper. If he moves into residential care and spends down under the threshold when his local authority becomes responsible for the fees, he will live longer and start costing a lot of money.

You could force the issue, you could enlist allies, and you would probably win if you put your mind to it. But you don't have to, and let's face it you're not going to, and arguably that is the correct ethical choice anyway - it IS your father's decision.

What input you continue to make to his life is your decision, though. Please yourself (and your wife and children first).

Dear Paul, so it’s the money - that’s why you can’t push for AL? How much do you and your brother care about inheriting it? Think carefully. Yes he may drop dead suddenly and you both may get a windfall. However Dad is a tough old bloke, may live for a long time, and may end up in care with no option, spending it all down anyway. I don’t believe that it would ‘literally KILL him if he had to do this’. Whinge like crazy yes, kill him no. Get over it? - possibly, he won’t be seeing the bills and it does fade from mind. Ask the doctor if you’re actually serious about the ‘kill’ stuff.

Yes, there is no solution on his terms. That’s why you are the one that needs to make the change. Let’s go back to what you could do to force the AL option. Back off so that he IS miserable at home and AL seems like a better option? Present him with a clear alternative – first is AL, second is home without the support you have been providing. A middle way would be to provide a written list of behaviours that he has to follow if he wants any support from you, and if he doesn’t follow it then you withdraw support completely.

Polar,

It’s sad when parents feel like children owe them everything. I don’t think they realize it causes them to want to turn away from them.

I have never treated my children like property. They live their own lives. I raised them to be independent. I want them to be happy in life. Love isn’t about control.

Yes, I sense Paul’s dad is lonely too. For some reason they feel their children should fill every void. It becomes a burden on the adult children.

NHWM- Groceries is not the problem. It's an excuse his dad uses to get Paul to come over to spend time and do things his dad wants. His dad really needs to have things to do and people to talk to besides his two sons.

Since, he refuses to even consider Assisted Living, and insists on staying in his home and have his sons cater to him, and Paul getting fed up, pushing back but feeling too guilty to put dad in his proper place, things are at a stand still, a stale mate. No one happy, no one too miserable either.

I suppose this will continue until his dad gets to a point where he HAS to be in a home, or he goes to the light.

Paul,

What about the delivery service for food on weekends? Did you ever get your dad to try it?

You shouldn’t have to be obligated to him every weekend. That will certainly take a toll on you and your family.

It is fine to help out but on your terms, not his. He wants to control the situation. The fact is that you are doing him a favor and he should be cooperative with you.

It’s impossible to get others to change their attitude but we can change our attitude by telling them with no qualms that things are going to be done a different way or not done at all.

For instance, “Tell me your grocery list. I will be happy to send it in for you. It will be delivered to your door at this time. A tip will be included in the price. Inform the grocery to automatically include the tip in the price.

If this is done over and over, he has no choice but to adjust. He’s cranky anyway so how can it be any worse?

Polar - pretty good assessment to be honest.

MArgaret - yes he would be VERY unhappy if I pushed it. Hes like it now when he realised the world is not doing what he wants.

Yes he would be happier in a home. BUT and here's the killer - he'd have to pay for it. Average cost in wales £650 a week. A LOT of money would have to be spent before it got government funded. That would make him UNHAPPY 100x more. It would literally KILL him if he had to do this.

What he wants is to stay in his own home, keep his savings and have everyone running around for him. There is no solution at the moment.

Dad was born 1934. Sure I've said before (and CM will recognise this), we're a mining family from the south wales valleys. Not a very prosperous area.
Granddad worked down the mine (it killed him in the end), Dad worked in a factory all his life. Working an office, or getting lots of money for doing so is alien to dad. Which is why he sees my brother (Whos a welder - blue collar occupation) as a hard worked. I never get a mention.

I see what everyone says but this was 60 years ago. You've got to move on. People dont get paid £!00 a week now, its not £1 for a up of tea, a meal out does not cost £4-£5.

Paul's Dad would have been too young to remember the Depression, Barb, and ironically the country's never been healthier than it was during the war. It gave Whitehall the perfect experimental chance to impose dietary regulations on the entire population - everything rationed, virtually no sugar, but an allowance of protein and vitamins per head meted out pretty strictly. Ah happy days! - if you were a government nutritionist, anyway.

Then immediately afterwards they launched the NHS, along with a paternalistic schools structure that distributed milk, vitamin drops and vaccinations to everyone from 0-14. And hot dinners.

Which lasted until the 70s, when one Margaret Thatcher ("milk-snatcher") was made Education Secretary and decided this free allowance must be sapping the moral fibre of the country.

I think I owe my bone density to those third-of-a-pint bottles and the fact that many of my classmates couldn't stand milk!

Paul, it’s interesting to read the good post from PolarBear, and then to realise that doing all those things will leave your Dad very lonely and miserable. He really really needs to be in a facility where he will have company, and people who look after him and give him that sense of power. Of course it’s not what he wants, but if you do what you need to do for your own family’s sake, it’s what he needs.

If you changed your strategy to getting him into AL (or whatever available level is appropriate), what could you do differently? Perhaps it involves backing off so that he IS miserable at home and AL seems like a better option. Perhaps it involves talking to your dead beat brother. Could you change to making the move happen, not just going around the bend yourself? Please THINK about what to do.

Paul, we all want you to get to a point where you won't allow your dad to manipulate you, so you can live your life in a more balanced way. Many here have given you lots and lots of suggestions, recommendations, ideas, etc., but it seems like you need to go through a 12-step program to get there.

Right now, it seems to me you have gotten to the point where:

--you realize your dad is a self centered person who cares nothing about anyone but himself, and
--that you also recognize his manipulative tactics, and
--you are pushing back, and
--attempt some boundary

You have moved beyond trying to please him by doing things he demands at your and your family's expense. That's GOOD. That's GREAT.

But, you still need to get to the point where:
--you can shut off the phone, or block his number so he can't nag you
--you can detach yourself emotionally from him
--you don't get all angry at his unreasonable demands
--you can look at him and his manipulation the way you would a spoiled brat demanding you buy him an iphone or he'll hold his breath
--you can level with him and TELL him what you will do for him
--you don't feel the need to EXPLAIN to him what you can or can't do for him
--you can level with him and tell him what kind of a person he really is
--you can feel unburdened from his manipulation
--you can spend time with your wife and children and live your life the way you want

How to get to those steps? Maybe EMOTIONALLY you're not ready to do those things, but by PHYSICALLY doing those things, you emotion will be dragged along and eventually catch up.

Margaret; the fact that one's diet (as measured by dietitians) improved and how deprived one felt are two very different things. "Not feeling the good of it" is an old-fashioned phrase that means something to this old man.

I understand (believe me, I do!) how annoying Paul's dad is. What I'm trying to get at is that understanding the SOURCE of his dad's anxiety might make it a tad more palatable for Paul.

At least for me, this is what therapy gave me...that my parents were horribly imperfect people who were parented by even LESS perfect people. They did the best they could with the resources and the understanding that they had.

My maternal grandmother came over from Ireland at the age of 2; she left school at age 8 to go to work. She had 4 children and lost her husband when the youngest (my mom) was 2. There was no social service system in NYC; there was Tammany Hall (the Democratic machine) and she was grateful for their help.

My mother, in essence, had no father, and a mother who had to work (and there was no child care). She was sent to be with the nuns at the age of 3 and started in Kindergarten because they had nothing else to do with her.

Talking about all this in therapy (I knew all the facts beforehand, had just never put them together in an adult sort of way) helped me to understand my mother's behavior patterns, her anxieties and her foibles and NOT LET THEM RULE MY LIFE. I was able to parent my children in what I hope was a healthier way.

Did my mom have turns of phrase, ways of talking about things that drove me mad? Yes. But they didn't take up the real estate in my head the way Paul is allowing his dad to do.

Paul, get your dad's NEEDS sorted and move on.

Barb, that’s perhaps over-sympathetic. Did you know that the average nutrition in the UK actually improved under WWII rationing? It probably would today too – with controls, things are shared more equally, and ‘junk food’ might even disappear! Millions of people went through this, and worse, without turning out like Paul's father.

Paul, not that I'm any fan of your dad's manipulations, but...

He grew up during the Depression and the War, yes? Times of terrible privation for Britons. Worse than for those of our parents who grew up during those times. I'm sure that there was some genuine hunger and years without meat in his past.

Sometimes we need to understand where the sad story comes from. It makes it a little easier.

Isthisrealyreal - Oh hes very predicable at the moment.

This weekend I'll get "Im desperate for you to go shopping" (I've already said I'm going to pop in). This is just to make sure.

I'll probably get the "take me out for a ride in the car". Got to think of an excuse for that one - my back is bad no extra driving thanks.

Xmas day conversation. Hmmm. Probably I'll get "can't you pick me up this time?" and "the kids will be ok, it wont take long to pick me up". then probably "well i'll be on my own then" (even though every xmas he says "glad its all over to be honest")

Hang in there, Paul...💗

You knew the phone call was coming when you went on holiday. He is quite predictable and that makes it pretty easy in my book.

It's the ones you don't see coming that give me cause to pause. But I am learning to see what happens prior to the curve balls, not always, but a large percentage of the time.

You are getting better, you can do this!

isthisrealyreal - Reminds me when he had some thing where he couldnt swallow. Apparently, its like a real thing caused by stress etc. (That went down well, because in Dads world stress is not real - its cured by "pull yourself together").

Anyway he could eat just not chew so well. GP was not worried at all. Dad is not a small frail old man anyway! But Dad wouldnt let it go.

Moaned and moaned then one day said "but I'm eating any meat, so I'm getting weaker and weaker every day without the goodness".

I did nearly pee myself when I told him that billions of vegetarians all over the world dont seem to drop dead after a week!

inkandpaper - hes yet to agree to home delivery yet. Hes fighting that one tooth and nail.

Thats a massive one for him. It means a huge guilt stick gone from his list of weapons. Hes not happy to lose that!

And number of times I've invited him out and he says no. If its my idea he says no, if its his idea....

All - Yes remember the phone call I had when I was in Florida? Two days after I got there?

"Now don't worry - but I've had to call the doctor out".

No need to tell me not to worry - I knew 99.99% it was just a cold. I worried about 0.1 second then. Off to see Mickey Mouse!

Isthisreallyreal - Like it. Yes I agree its like a game to him to see if he can get his own way.

Im getting better than I was...

Oh Paul, you are so worried about his reactions that he is controlling you with a look. Poor guy. I am not being snarky, I get wanting to do the right thing by your parents and being on different planets of what is right. It tears your head and heart apart. Learning to accept that you will never be what he wants and that is okay is your challenge.

I had to laugh about this because I can't tell you how many times I have said to myself, when displeasing my parents because I am an adult with a life and boundaries., "Hoho if looks could kill, I would be stone cold dead."

I will also ask them on occasion if they are okay and when they ask "!why?!", just like a surly child, I will say, "well that look on your face right then looked like you burped sour."

You have to learn to let it go, I find humor to be the best for me. I don't say most things to them, it is in my head so that I can not be sucked into their vortex of control and demands and guilt.

Oh another one that I find helps, when I am being guilted I will say, and here I am without any luggage. I didn't know I was going on a trip or I would have prepared. When they ask what trip, well the guilt trip you are trying to send me on. Usually being caught in this situation stops them for a bit, it either embarrasses them or makes them mad, I am not sure which, but I know it stops them from trying to make me feel guilty.

I think it becomes a game for some, trying to get around your boundaries and making you feel guilty. Some people also refuse to see anyone being happy when they are miserable, so they do everything they can to make others miserable instead of trying to be happy. I think my mom is only happy when she makes everyone miserable, I stay away with strong boundaries dealing with her.

Find a way to give yourself some fun when dealing with his predictable behaviors, you don't have to say anything to him, just find responses that make you chuckle, because you know what is coming.

It's good that you can come here and vent, but I'm glad to hear that you still do go out of town, that you will have groceries delivered. His unreasonableness and looks are annoying, but they are his reaction. He's unlikely to change.
The grocery thing would really get to me, It is so manipulative.
Oddly, sometimes there is reassurance they are looking for. I can't get to the grocery store for you, but I'd like to come over and have a meal or bring you something. It seems as if he is clinging.

If I lived my life caring about the look on my mom's face when I...

told her I wasnt going to a nice Catholic girls school and went to school in a hotbed of left wing radical politics in NYC...

told her I was going to get divorced

told her I could no longer rush out of work and drive an hour because she was hysterical because of a burned out lightbulb

told her that if she had ants in her facility kitchen she needed to call the staff, not me

told her that she was going to see a geriatric psychiatrist

told her she was going for a full on cognitive evaluation to find out why she was behaving the way she was....

Paul, my point is IF you want to have a life you can call your own, you need not to be ruled by your father's disappointment in you/your behavior.

He's right. He doesn't have sons who will take him in and he's going to have to, eventually, be looked after elsewhere. Agree with him and offer to start looking. Not in a snarky way.

What problem did the look on his face pose to you? It did not stop you going on holiday. Your father didn't do anything as a result, and nothing bad happened to him or to anyone else.

When he says oh poor me alone and abandoned by my wicked ungrateful children I'll have to go into a home: again, what material difficulty does this create for you?

ALLOW your father to have his feelings. His having them does not mean you have to agree or comply.

All,

I remember July just gone. I'd not said anything then broke it to him that I'm off to Florida for three weeks in August. The look on his face.....

He'd do the same. It'd be like "oh no what am I going to do?"

We'll have a repeat of "well if no-one looks after me I'll have to go into a home then" soon I expect. YES CM I KNOW!!!!!

Ha ha yeh. I could do. He'd want to know the ins and outs of that one lol.
Trouble is I'd have to keep the lie up - that would be tough.

Like I said brother has done this 3 or 4 times now. Said hes booked a holiday then nearer the time it all falls through. Then he says he never booked it was just thinking of it and then changed his plans.

99% certain this year is no different. As soon as (he thinks) I say "Dad is coming to us Xmas day" his plans will change and hes free to go down the pub all day.

Mind you last year Dad didnt help. Brother wanted to pop in the pub for an hour but Dad moaned and moaned that it "wasnt right to go in a pub on xmas day". Then brother offered to pay for taxi home for Dad - its a mile remember - Dad moaned and moaned about that too - in the end brother didnt drink and gave him lift home. Whereas I have zero sympathy for my brother, you can see why no-one wants dad to visit them...... This is typical of him.