It's been a hard week....

Paul, it is very very obvious that your father is lonely. He is a pain in the neck, but his wish to rule your world is about getting him company and a feeling that he is important.

He really really needs to be somewhere where he gets company and people to care for him. Could you please stop reacting to him, and work on a strategy to get him into care? You won’t persuade him, you have to force it. Do you have any ideas at all about how to do this? Complaining to your wife and brother achieves nothing, but have you asked them for ideas about how to force it? Or his doctor? Or a counsellor? Standing up for yourself is good, but he is going to get more miserable as well as worse behaved. How do you get to be the one that makes the decisions? Please try thinking about it from that angle.

CM - He never goes into the betting shop himself any more. He gets brother to walk down usually.

He does enjoy watching the TV thinking he could win a pound. All well and good of course, but hes not willing to get off his backside and do it himself.

Of course, I know, the other things he gets out of it are 1) Me to visit and 2) a warm glow that hes got someone doing something for him.

How it gets elevated to "need" status in his head I'll never know. It seems to be stuck in his head at "if my sons loved me they'd do this one thing for me".

I'm at the stage where I've stopped doing these "one things" because these "one things" are usually how he wants it with an easier way to do it.

I know I've won the "betting shop saturday am" battle. Its a stalemate in the "sunday visit I need food" battle at the moment. Im sure he'll think of another reason for a necessary visit soon.

Don't be disingenuous, Paul. You know perfectly well that the bet had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm also far from convinced that placing the bet online is the answer. The benefit of the bet to your father is his opportunity for socialisation (if you'd call it that) with his fellow punters in the betting shop - he's not in it for the money, is he, unless he's a marvellous connoisseur of form? The spending of actual money is a side effect of the activity, it's not the aim.

disgusted - BTW he caved. Hes phoned me. Agreed to let me put the bets on for him online. Its a victory I think.

It'll take me 5 mins to do the bets for him. So no scam to get me to visit on a Saturday now.

Brother apparently though has had a dig in my absence. Saying " all well and good doing it online but would it hurt him to visit?". Hmm hang on I thought the issue here was the bet - isnt that issue resolved?

Beatty - Yes he'd love a home. He LOVES people fussing over him. If he was in a home I could imagine him REALLY taking advantage - he'd have them running around like idiots. Then he'd be oblivious as to what he was doing.

Sort of tried the calendar thing. It goes in one ear and out the other. His attitude seems to be "not my problem, you need to find time", or "well cancel those things". Or more annoyingly "get your wife to do it".

The betting shop is a prime example. I told him a week ago I can't come over on Saturdays because I take daughter to gymastics, wife works a lot of Saturdays, and, in any case, the one huge problem is they don't let 6 year olds in betting shops and I can't leave her home!

So what do I get this week? Brothers away can you come over Saturday and put the bets on for me? I could scream sometimes....

Hes got a HUGE thing about my wife at the moment. We've argued about this many times. I've told him to butt out of it - its not her responsibility to do anything for him. BUT, he still wont accept it. (This is not helped by Florence Nightingale (brothers wife) who shows up and acts like a saint when it suits her - then bails for weeks on end).

Yes I like that saying. Im an IT Consultant so use that in my professional life!
Another good one - "Not my circus not my monkeys"

disgusted - Oh he agonizes over his decision to bet £5 a week. I'm sick of hearing it. He'll go on for 20 mins saying "I dont drink, I dont smoke " so "£5 is all I waste, its ok isnt it?" expecting me to say yes its ok.

I dont care. He obsessed with how much money he spends.

I am in a really good place now - but it took time!

I showed my needy family members my calendar. I coloured up blocks of time for work, study, kids activities etc. This blue bit is the time I can visit/assist you. Other times I cannot. Of course I will help in an emergency (eg car accident) but your day to day stuff is YOUR day to day stuff. I am only ONE person. If your needs are more than I can help with, you need a village approach. More people/services to help. If you need more than people popping in & out can do, you will need to move into a village environment.

I now visit once a week - for a cuppa. (I got burnt out so that's all I will do at present).

Would your Dad accept your calender limits? You are laughing aren't you? Mine wouldn't at first, but I kept stating, no I'm not coming until *x-day*. First real test was when summoned to go shower/dress/clean house when carer due at 10:00 called to say was only able to come at 9:30 or 11:00 that day - she said no & summoned me for 10:00 instead. Nope. Not an emergency. Not coming.

Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part. I learnt it on this site & it's now one of my mantras!

Oh the shame of getting help! My Mother too. Get meals on Wheels delivered? No! Eating *home brand* frozen meals. Showers (made to) 1-2 x week.

I'm imaging your Dad sitting in the old people's home complaining about the food, the staff & his ailments - AND LOVING IT!

BarbBrooklyn: Agreed about CM!💞💞

Rather ironic that he's so cheap he doesn't want to pay for this that and the other thing, but will throw money away on betting??? THAT would set me off on him (esp when that 5/wk equals the 20 extra for the gas/electric...)!

Now that you have stood your ground and he's not talking to you, time to bolster up that resolve and maintain the barrier!!! Don't call or visit - see how long he can maintain no contact. BUT, know as soon as you cave, you will lose ground.

Paul; CM knows what she is talking about. Listen to her.

I live in NYC. My friend's mom, with dementia, has round the clock aids. They take her to the doctor, shopping, etc. Whatever she wants. I imagine if she wanted to go to the betting parlor, if we had those anymore, they would take her there.

paul: The elder mindset doesn't allow him to adjust the additional 3 pounds' money.

Barb - Obviously you know I'm in the UK. OK so we're talking the FREE carers that the NHS would provide here?

Surely you can't use these as your personal slave? In my experience, they show up with a small timeslot and basically get him dressed, make his breakfast and thats about it.

CM - obviously you're in the UK so know a bit more about how it works here.

Of course, I guess if its a PAID person then its a bit different. But like having a PA.

Never going to happen if theres ANY cost involved. Dad WOULD NOT IN A MILLION YEARS pay anyone. Why? Hes got me to do that. (in his head).

But Paul, here's the thing; a support worker's ONLY remit is to cater to your dad's whims. S/he doesn't have a family obligation that is topmost in their mind.

It would really be the best solution all around.

Beatty - Yeh I get the same with Dad. "Tell you're wife to stop working weekends" yeah right. "Tell work you can't do on call because you need to visit me".

Yes I've spoken to his GP a few times. No problems. He has PLENTY of food. Meals on wheels 4 days a week (he refuses the other 3 days so he can moan about it). Its all a con with him to get more visits.

Hygiene - no. Hes dirty but its because he cant be arsed. And he thinks one wash a week is fine.

Need more help. I've got a stair lift fitted, walk in shower - its been a massive fight every time. Got a cleaner in - he cancelled it. Hes had carers in the past - moaned they refused to come at 9am dead on. Cancelled them.

Thing is he sees it as shameful to have help. Hes afraid of what his stupid friends say. BUT its OK for his family to do it.

"Nice old gent". Ha ha. Hes a very good actor. Sorry I've little patience left after years of abuse from him. I almost lost my marriage and my kids because of his demands and he doesnt care. Its only last few years I've pushed back and put an end to it all - I had to!

He'd do very well in a retirement home but see above about the shame of it all.

CM - if he ever gets a support worker I already feel sorry for them. You couldnt pay someone enough to put up with my Dad.

Hey Paul, if it makes you feel any better, my Mum wants me to stop working Saturdays (so I can be available for her wishes) & asked me to go wash my special needs sister's towels every single Sunday - wash, dry in dryer, ensure REALLY properly dry, fold & put away. I am laughing now... but at the time I was struggling to breathe - anger, shock, wtf! I work, study, have a partner, kids, hobbies even.

Your Dad's 4. List LOL! Same! Also frugal +++ house is roasting in summer (won't allow aircon) & freezing all winter. (I wore a beanie when visiting).

I had noticed smaller changes in her years ago, getting more frugal, less flexible thinking. I peeked in the kitchen cupboard once & found 2 tins of soup & 1 tuna... oh your Mother only likes to buy enough for a few days. Later brain scans show evidence of past TIAs apparantly & there is a small lack of O2 getting to her brain too. Well.

Have you had a sit down chat with Dad - along the lines of, Dad I'm a bit concerned you may be lonely or need a bit more help? Maybe we could discuss it? Does he have any Council help besides meals on wheels?

Sorry if you have already said but just wondering: Does he really not have enough food? Or just angling for a visit? How is his memory? Is he eating well? Remembering to pay bills, wearing appropriate clothing for the weather, clean clothes, hygiene ok? If these are *off* may be time to go see the GP with him.

He sounds like a nice old gent, if a bit anxious. Probably do well in a retirement home with others around for company.

Paul, if your father were receiving services from his local authority his support worker would go to the bookies for him, or take him there. As long as it's in the care plan, it gets done.

A PA (personal assistant, what they're calling support workers nowadays) I know of has to go to CostCo to get her client cigarettes in bulk. Not for us to tell people how to spend their money.

Social services have a duty to enable his autonomy. Sons don't. He might think on that.

All - Yes exactly. I know he enjoys his betting but sheesh its hardly life and death.

I know I should be getting used it but it annoys me SO MUCH that he expects me to give up so much. Even when theres an option for him to do himself. I suppose, I've always said 3 hours of my time is worth 20 secs and £1 of Dads resources in his head.

Thing is he "doesn't want to spend the £3 extra". Because in his head, £5 a day is well enough on betting and you shouldn't spend more. The fact that it costs me a tenner in petrol is irrelevant. Thats Dad to a T - his life these days seems to be ruled by rules in his head about how things work. Mostly total rubbish.

Polar - No I was never going over. I meant took all my power to calmly say NO rather than scream at him and tell him how selfish he was.

paul: It was absolutely necessary for him to gamble on the horses? Sheesh.

"Hes not speaking to me now because I won't do this "one thing" for him."

Paul, that is GREAT. Let him be mad. It's the first step for him to accept or at least realize that he can't pull strings and make you into a marionette anymore. The next step should be that he would lower his expectation of you. So, keep up the first step and soon he'll be ready for the second.

Good job Paul. DON"T WAIVER.

I'm a little confused when you said it took all your power to just say NO. So..., what were you about to do instead? Say YES? or let him have it?

my father used to expect me to find someone else to pick up my kids from aftercare so I could stop at his place to fix his tv remote for the third time in a months time. Did he seriously think i had staff to out source my responsibilities to with no notice? If I did I’d be sending them to his place

Heres a classic from Dad. Brother goes over on a Saturday am to go to the betting shop for Dad. (Brother lives a mile away)

Its 400 yards from his house - he wont go on his scooter because "they wont let me in the shop will they?" Have you asked. No. I even offered to call the betting shop to clear it with them. "No I dont want to take my scooter into the betting shop". Leave it outside then. "No I dont want to leave it on the pavement."

So anyway, I've had this "discussion" with both my brother and Dad. I'm not coming over Saturday am driving 25 miles each way because 1) My wife works so I take daughter to gymnastics classes and 2) She 6 I cant take into betting shop so hows that going to work? (It town centre so cant park outside). So this was two weeks ago - he just nodded.

Yesterday, "your brother is away, you'll HAVE to come over Saturday am to go to the betting shop for me". NO!!!!!!!!!!! So I said look Dad I'm happy to do the bet online for you but theres a minimum. OK.

So I found out - it'd be £8. Oh no he wont do that because he only likes to spend a fiver when he has a bet. So can I still come over?

So hang on now, I drive 50 miles round trip, 2 hours plus out of my day, my daughter misses her gymnastics so you don't have to spend £3 more than you wanted? OMG. Lets just say it took all my power to just say NO! Did you not listen the other week when I said it was not possible?

Hes not speaking to me now because I won't do this "one thing" for him. And apparently I need to tell my wife not to work Saturdays so she can have my daughter freeing me up to drive over to put his bet on. As if.

I'm sorry but putting money on the horses is not a basic human need. He annoys me so much sometimes with his selfishness.

Ha ha - Yes I see what you all mean. I've told him to do what he wants now but don't ask me for help. Hes annoyed at me now because he thinks what hes doing is perfectly fine.

It annoys him when I say "no prizes for richest man in the graveyard Dad". I always say this to him.

But you're all dead right. Hes NEVER happy. Health wise theres not a lot badly wrong with him apart from being old. I pray hes never properly ill and it drags on for years....

Might sound selfish but hes not the type to take in on board and get on with it. A long lingering decline is not for him.

Freezing to death, I heard, is not painful and not a bad way to go. And if you freeze during your sleep, you shouldn't suffer at all. I should keep this in mind for myself later on.

Paul: One time when my mother was still alive, I thought of what I considered to be a genius Mother's Day gift. I live in Maryland. She lived in Massachusetts. So I used the delivery service, "PeaPod" through Giant Grocery Store. Fortunately, my 50 year old cousin was there when the truck arrived at mom's home and my cousin said "this is a REALLY NICE gift." And it WAS. Point being if the younger woman wasn't there, my mom would have gone on and on at how expensive everything was, which wasn't the case at all. I got 'first time customer' discount, I got sale items, I could use manufacturers' coupons and I could tailor the order to her likes - melons, fish, low sodium canned green beans, etc.

paul: That's rich. It's takes a while for any abode/house to warm up once heat supply is turned off. The elder mindset ... ?!

Paul, is he able, by himself to make the calls to turn off the heat?

I never argue with people like this. If they want things their way and I'm in a position of no authority, the fine, have it your away.

Do not lift a finger to help. But if he does it, make sure you ring the district nurse to tell them that he's endangering himself.

He takes up too much of the space in your head. If he's just trying to engage/annoy/spite you, shrug and say "sure, dad. Whatever you think is best".

Let him be, why don't you?

Paul, do you want him to live forever? You say that if he has to pay his way, “he’s so attached to that money, I would worry he would literally give up.” So? If he got depressed and died more quickly, he would see the pearly gates sooner (what are his religious ideas, by the way?), suffer the slings and arrows of old age for a shorter time, and so would you and your family. He’s not happy now, after all!

No this is correct. A few months ago I even did a comparison and got him the cheapest deal.

This is gas and electicity mind. Hes currently debit about £100.

His latest idea "I want to switch the gas off so I don't pay for it".
Hes going to wear a jumper when its cold, boil a kettle to wash in the sink. Honestly.....

I've told him I won't be visiting with my daugher if hes going to keep the house in sub-zero temparatures in the winter. Or if hes not going to have a proper shower.