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I have been known to bribe my children... just saying...

I have also made it clear that certain times are *family duty* occassions. They accept this concept easily now. (But there were many early years they were kept out of restaurants & shopping centres for our own sanity too).

Good result for Boxing Day!
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YAY. Sorted boxing day. Restaurant it is...

He was not happy. More with the fact that there'd be no-one at home to greet him. I can see now the fallout is going to be "I havent seen you're wife all year" and "I havent been to your house all year". You're going to wait a while for my wife.

He did moan about the cost £20! And he did moan my teenage son wasnt going. (Hes going to be home). Apparently, I should "make" him go. If you all remember hes on the ASD spectrum - there is no way in a million years hes going to want to sit in a restaurant with us two.

But a good result nevertheless.....

All I've got to worry about now is how he behaves in the restaurant....
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Beatty - i like your sense of humor. ;D

Paul - Holidays are stressful. Do what you can and forget the rest.
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Welcome to your practice today :)

Start by sitting or standing comfortably. Now arrange your mouth in the shape of saying no. Now say No.

Again. 5 more. Breathe inbetween. No. Breathe. No. Breathe. No. Breathe. No. Breathe. No. Breathe.

Repeat to self daily.

One day you will surprise yourself & a newly perfected no will be spoken when you need it.

I may jest right? But I do get it! My Dad brought me up too & learning to say no to him as an adult is changing a lifetime habit.

My tiny squeaks of no last year are now real worlds. The feel more natural to say. If I do falter, I buy time, stall & call back when my answer is composed.

You can do it!
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Paul,

Here’s an example of what I had to do with my mom.

I would leave my house and go pick her up at her home to bring her to doctor appointments. She liked to go out for lunch afterwards. Lunch was fine. We both had to eat. My husband was at work and the kids were still at school.

She loved a sandwich shop that was on the way home. She would say to me, “Oh honey, the doctor visit wore me out so bring me home, then go back and pick up the sandwiches and we will eat them at my house.”

The first couple of times she suggested that I agreed but it caused me to have to rush back home to make sure I made it home before the school bus.

Something clicked and I realized that I was being manipulated by mom. I started telling her, “Mom, my kids are at the bus stop at such and such a time and I have to be there. We can stop and eat at the sandwich shop or you can sit in the car while I pick up the sandwiches. I am not going to backtrack wasting my time and rush to get home before the school bus. There is no other choice, so pick one.”

Mom made a face and then said, “Okay, we can go to the sandwich shop on the way home. She ended up talking to the nice couple who owned it. We actually had nice lunches. She knew the couple. They were very sweet and attended her church. She enjoyed seeing them. I wanted her to remain social in the community like she had before daddy died.

Your dad will survive if he doesn’t go to your house.
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Paul,

There isn’t a good reason to bring him back to your home. You’re a logical man who runs a successful business so I know that you have plenty of logic.

Use that same logic to instruct your dad that you will not bring him back to your home.

Don’t say, “Wouldn’t you rather this or that? It’s not a question. It’s a statement. It has to be a non negotiable statement.

Do you give in on all your business dealings? No you do not give in. Some situations are non negotiable.

When I young and my husband were planning our first vacation together as a married couple, his secretary asked him to give her a phone number that he could be reached at. This was before cell phones!

My husband looked at her and said, “ I can’t be reached. I’m going on vacation with my wife. She works hard at her job. I work hard at my job. This vacation is our time that we deserve together.”

His secretary was put off by his answer. She said, “Well, what if an emergency comes up?” He replied, “Ask someone else, I left everything in capable hands so there is absolutely no reason for you to know the name and phone number of the hotel we were staying at.”

That was that! He didn’t budge. Stay strong! Once you do it, it will become easier and you will wonder why you didn’t do it sooner!

I have to say my husband is a handsome man but it was his confidence that drew me in. That kind of confidence and security is so attractive.
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Ugh... feel your pain! I'm in similar situation with both parents in their early 90's I'm 7min away by car. My 2 sisters live far away -its all me and my husband! My dad is selfish, talks incessantly (gets mad if he feels you're not paying attention) has lists almost daily of what we need to get done for him. I hate being around him! Irrational in his expectations of everyone around him.
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Paul; why on earth would you give in and take dad to your home? What purpose would that serve?

Can't you say "no" to your father and mean it, and not being shamed into doing something you know is useless? I mean, it's not like you have to say "my wife and children hate you because you are mean to them and you spoil their holidays". You just have to say "no, Dad, that's not what's on offer".

That's why you need to see a therapist. Do develop the skills to do this. Saying "no" to a parent is part of being a fully functional adult.
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Yeh exactly. Ive no problem with boxing day anyway....

Im fully expecting "But I've not seen your wife since last year, or I've not been to your house all year". It gets like a tick list exercise with him I feel sometimes.

He's started already "I havent see x" (my teenage son). What 16 yr old boy bothers with his grandad that much? Especially one as disinterested as Dad. Also the Aspergers doesnt help because my Dad just makes him feel awkward.

Of course, he sees my daughter regularly. Uninterested of course.

Remember his birthday? He was well put out my wife hadnt phoned him. Im sure he ha d tick list there of people who "should" have phoned him.

He'll probably point blank refuse to go to the restaurant and I'll give in now.
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Oh, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding. I thought that you wanted that day to be spent with family.

You don’t need to bring him back to an empty house. That would be ridiculous.
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NeedHelp - hmm I've already agreed to seeing him Boxing Day. Hes just assumed I'm collecting him, bringing him to mine etc.

Not yet told him theres no-one there....
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Paul,

Stick to your original plan. If you don’t want to pick him up, simply tell him that you have other plans. Leave it at that. If he asks what your plans are, tell him you have another call that you must answer and hang up.

Don’t answer if he calls back. You’re busy, busy, busy. Busy avoiding him.

Enjoy your holidays!

Paul,

Just had another thought. Can you program your phone to forward all of his calls to go to your dear brother’s phone? Hahaha, you know I am being a bit sarcastic!
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Left alone hes now organised meals on wheel for xmas day.

Next hurdle is boxing day. I've booked a local restaurant. There is no point in me doing twox 50 mile round trips back to me house when theres no-one there (my wife is working, youngest at grans, teenager well being a teenager in his room).

Can guarantee Dad for some reason will say hes "got to visit" my house....
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paul: You're welcome.
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AYE!!
+1 step back

I stepped back & it was amazing the clarity I gained. Sounds cliched but like stepping back from fog into a light mist day. A few more steps needed to see sunshine again.
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AYE! AYE!
And AYE to DO take one step away, not just try.
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Rats, my post has gone beyond the 'edit' stage...

"...I try to step away..." Yoda wisdom says DO or DO NOT, there is NO try!!!! ;-)
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I second your decision and NeedHelpWithMom's toast!!!

All in favor, say AYE!!
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Great choice, Paul! 😊

I will toast to that idea 🍻
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Thanks all. I think its best I try to step away a bit further to be honest. Let Dad and brother get on with it.

If they don't like the way I do things - hard luck. If Dad is going to make stupid decisions then carry on. Not my problem any more.
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paul: Prayers to you and your son.
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Beatty - You're probably right! Counselling so it doesnt wind me up so much lol.
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Like Margaret said "Please get yourself some counselling that includes finding good options for your father, not just boundary setting for you." Yes I like this.

Margaret is a wise woman indeed for spotting you need more than the ability to put boundaries in place & keep reinforcing. You can say no all you like but without real alternatives, Dad will keep on calling & the relentless pressure will still be aimed at you.

In fact, this is why my first lot of councelling (for similar family pressure) wasn't all that sucessful! I see that now. Yes I leaned to set boundaries but often the alternatives (to my helping) just wouldn't hold up. Tiny patches over each need, flimsy & falling though on any given day. Calls were still coming - as I imagine for you. Cleaner not there on time, driver late, carer cancelled +++ Needs a manager for it all but my sister cognitively not able to do this, so that was falling my way too. Would your Dad manage his *team* for himself? If so, he may do ok for a while yet. If not able to manage his *team* if you or your brother are not able/willing to do this he may well need to look at moving into assisting type living.

Good luck.
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margaret - many thanks for your kind comments..... Im trying (STILL)!
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margaret - wow is it that long ago?
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Dear Paul, I remember answering your first post many many moons ago, when you said that you had the greatest Dad in the world because he had looked after you when your mother left you all, and you were feeling very guilty because you were now finding him a bit difficult. You have come a long way in three years, to the point of acknowledging that he is a pain in the neck, wondering why your mother left, questioning how your father did in fact manage to bring you and your brother up on his own (lots of people rushing to help?), and wondering how your brother turned out the way he is.

You are still left with the head set he had for himself and then created for you, of infinite obligation. Paul, this is in your head. You need to sort yourself out, and I would repeat that counselling for you and a meeting with your mother might help.

Your father’s problems have left him in the position where he is very lonely, very worried about spending money, believes that only family can and should help, and help should be for free. He is totally unreasonable, and is suffering from all the problems of the elderly about feeling out of control about how everything has changed. You didn’t make this happen.

Most of the advice about setting boundaries only makes your father feel worse, and makes you feel more guilty. You are too nice a bloke to want that to happen. Your Dad needs to make a new ‘family’ of people who care for him (both physically and emotionally).

Please get yourself some counselling that includes finding good options for your father, not just boundary setting for you.

I wish that ‘lots of love’ could help. Margaret
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paul: Prayers to your son on the Spectrum. I can picture him as being Savant intelligent. I mean everything good to you and him.
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Paul - your dad makes Ebenezer Scrooge looks generous.
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Isthisrealyreal - Ha ha my Dad will literally not spend a penny if he can help it.

I used to take him away for weekends to watch the cricket but his penny pinching got too much. I'd book a hotel - I'd get the cheapest hotel I could find. £28 a night (which is very cheap in the uk) and he'd moan I'd booked a posh hotel (it wasnt!). Then he'd moan a double room would have been cheaper than 2 singles (no way).

Worse of all was he wouldnt pay for food. He'd go without. If I bough a sandwich he'd then nag and nag that I had more money than sense.

In the end I though, you know what, its like skinflints weekend I'm not doing it any more.
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Paul, I have to say that I wish my dad was a little more resistant to spending money. He acts like a man that has been on a desert island and can now buy whatever he wants. He burns through it as fast as it comes in. And that is very stressful because he never considers tomorrow, ever. Ugh!

I have to say, if you don't play or fight then he will be playing alone and it truly takes two to tangle. You have to learn to not engage when he is pushing for a fight or wants something that you have already said no too.

I just get silent when my parents try their games, it is really effective, they know why I am not responding and when they say "are you still there?" I will say, "yep, I am here." 95% of the time it causes them to change the subject and the other 5% I say I have to go. I don't give them time to hold me, oh, I love you I HAVE to go now and I hang up, usually as they are saying something to rope me in. It is very hard to do, it feels soooooo rude, but it is far better than me being upset because they won't stop.

Keep chugging through and create your boundaries and enforce them. He may never get it, but it won't be as hard for you because x behavior gets x consequences and that is just how it is, his choice.

You are getting there, it took how many decades to get to the point you were, it will take some time to get through it. You can do it!
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