Issue with brother update: Relationship over!

Because of Nokonoko's post I wanted to post how I understand a POA to work.

DPOAs are assigned. There are two types Immediate and Springing.

Immediate means as soon as the principle signs their name the POA is in effect. But the principle can still make their own decisions if competent to do so. For me, I am immediate for my nephew because he needs to be overseen where money is concerned. We work well together with this.

Springing means (and most POAs are Springing) that the POA is not in effect until one or two doctors make a formal diagnosis of a Dementia saying the person can no longer make informed decisions. Until that time, the POA has no control over money or placing the principle.

From your discription of Dad he really isn't in a position to protest anything ur brother does. I don't care how rich you think brother is, its expensive to have round the clock care. If Dad has the funds, he should have to pay for his care. Maybe its time Dad goes to an AL if HE can afford to or LTC with Medicaid paying if he can't.

No, I don't think brother should have made an appt expecting you to pick up the bill. I don't think the average person could afford 24/7 care for a parent. For some reason, your brother does not want to pay for round the clock care. Maybe he feels if he stops it, it will force Dad into a facility where he needs to be. Brother maybe tired of dealing with the agency. Aides not showing up or doing their job. And the inheritance is SILs and she does not have to use it on her FIL.

The one thing I hate is someone assuming I have money. We do OK but not to the point we can afford paying for care for someone.

I think you and brother handled this all wrong. You both assumed a lot. What you need to do is figure out what is best for Dad. He can't be doing that great if your brother has paid for his care for years. POA is a tool not a power. Its responsibility. A responsibility to see that the principle's wishes are carried out. That when that principle is not competent any longer that care is gotten to what THEY can afford. If that money is not there then the person is placed in a facility and Medicaid is applied for. A POA is not responsible to physically care for or personally pay for the principles care. Their responsibility is to make sure the person is safe and cared for wherever that may be.

For whatever reason, and he does not have to justify himself, your brother no longer wants the responsibility of paying for Dads care.
As POA he is not obligated to give you any information concerning Dads finances or health. Decisions where he will place Dad is between him and Dad. He does not have to include you in those decisions. Same healthwise.

I think maybe you have cut ur nose off to spit ur face and Dad will be the one paying for that.

dear OP,

we don't know your whole story (and that's your right to privacy). i'm sure you're doing your absolute best.

on a website, it's easy to misunderstand things. maybe some people misunderstood you? maybe i misunderstood you?

i think you're doing your best.

we're all going through difficult things.
we all need kind words.

i'm on your side.
i wish you well, OP!!!

After calling us BOZOS and suggesting we get stuff through our THICK SKULLS I do think I can imagine what Lisa's bro is going through, and her Dad as well. However, Lisa is now on her (his?) way. Likely to call the bro and call HIM more names. Hee hee. Better him than me! I just hope they both manage to keep poor Dad out of it. He has my EVERY SYMPATHY.
Unlike some of the rest of you, I don't think Lisa is doing her (his?) best. I have judged Lisa by her (or his) own words. One may or may not frown upon judgements, but unfortunately we have to make them every day--we have to make them every time we cross a street.
IF Lisa is genuine (and she or he may be) I find that very sad. If not, I find it all somewhat laughable at this point.
Just my opinion. And whatever my opinion, I never called her a "Bozo" cute as that is. I suggested she keep her dad out of the middle of her squabble with her bro, and I suggested she is harming her father with this (which I truly believe) and I suggested that since the Father CHOSE to move by the brother and CHOSE the brother as the POA, she step back.
She says she intends to fight. And quite honestly, it is my judgement that that's what Lisa likes to do--fight.
She has the sympathy of some, and their best wishes. That's great. Mine?Not so much.

dear alvadeer :),

hug!!
i hope it's just been some misunderstanding between various people.

i'm sending lots of warm thoughts to everyone.
we're all dealing with many things.

hug!!

Thank you verystressedout and bundleofjoy. Kind, supportive words do matter. IThey can literally change the world.

I feel sick about what happened. I also felt maybe everyone knows better than me but I just went through a box of old papers and in the box were my school report cards and letters from school principles. I had forgotten that I was an A student all the way through and the letters were all commending me on my hard word and accomplisments (but how they think I have mastered "citizenship" by grades alone is a mystery to me). I don't say this to boast or that I believe there is some correlation that makes me better than anyone esle. It's just that it shows there's something good about me and there's a really good chance that I am right about this situation.

But, Bundle, we ALWAYS knew you are kinder than me! Hee hee.
I do ADMIRE people who can continue to be kind to OPs no matter what they say. I want to be them when I grow up.
BUT. I am not them. I am more of a "tough love" bent, as in VERY tough (in fact, a bit of a BOZO).
I don't think people benefit a lot from our sympathy, but just "may" from the honesty. Sympathy is what the whole world of our friends gives us when we come with our perpetual sob stories about how difficult our lives are because everyone else is so mean to us. That's good, and sometimes we need/deserve it.
But sometimes we need to take responsibility for our own stuff, I think. A good shake-up can sometime rattle us enough to make us get ourselves off a well worn and habitual path, and look at it from another perspective.
For me, I am 80. The last level thing I need in this life is two children warring over my old bones at a point when I am too old to stop them, and can only suffer over it, become more confused over it.
Our OP said in another thread that she once just loved this brother to death. Time to dig through the trunk and find that love again. When Dad is dead they can go at one another again, if that's how they like to spend their time.
For me it comes down to "be nice or be OUT of my FACE". Full stop. No more hills to die on. Can't make it up them anymore! ;-) (RR taught me to make that smiley face).

You didn’t even try to have a discussion over the aide contract, Lisa. You didn’t say you could chip in 15 percent, and/or shadow these caregivers to see what you could do yourself or offer any kind of compromise besides silent mad face according to you. And instead of being appreciative of what he has been doing for years Lisa, you keep telling us that he took it on and bc he is rich and has been doing it, he is therefore obligated.

And then you called your dad and upset him because you found brother was looking at als. Well that’s a higher level financial commitment than these “service providers” that you just told us you did not dialogue on. Riled up dad for sure has gone to brother, who will probably tell you nothing from here out. And if bro thinks your visits are upsetting him, he might just make it so you can’t visit at all.

You see yourself as a comanager while bro has all the responsibility and doesn’t trust you as comanager. You really don’t have a say just because you are also an adult child. If you don’t have the wherewithal to wrest poa from brother and provide dad with what brother is, you don’t have a say.

Lisa, you are seriously bringing up your elementary school cards as proof of responsibility? You know, stop this right now. Brother doesn’t need a meddling sibling that buts in about how he should spend his wife’s money, and if it’s come to 15000 month als, it is logical for dad to pay at that point. Like Alva, Burnt, Lea have all said, your choice is to get him to come with you and do this all by yourself, or just go along with the plan instead of complicating it.

AlvaDeer, It's not sympathy. It's the kind words. Words can, and have, changed the world for the better.

I once had an argument with someone if it's better to teach students by berating them when they do not meet a standard or praise them when they get better, by any degree. I said the best way is by praise. The other person said "No, you got to tell them their awful, they suck! That's how you get performance." Well, some time after that I read something by one of the greatest educators who said to the effect "You always encourge by praise. Negative feedback has a strong tendency to retard accomplishment and may cause damage."

OP wrote:
“my school report cards and letters from school principles”

it’s a bit strange.
(by the way, OP, not “principles” but principals).

no adult starts looking through their report cards (in the middle of a family crisis, how to help elderly father).

and no adult looks through report cards to remember “there's something good about me”

PeggySue2020, these were not just elementary report cards or letters. They were also from high school and college. I said there was no correlation for anything BUT the good words in the letters say to me that at least I can't be totally wrong. On the contrary, I am probably right.

Lisa,

As I've said before on this forum, it's a support group not an airport. You don't have to announce your departure. You can just go.
No one here is a bozo or was insensitive and mean-spirited about your situation. You didn't get the response that you wanted and expected from us. You got the one you needed. Now work with the good advice you were given. Your post reflects a spoiled adult brat stamping their feet, holding their breath, and making faces because they didn't get their own way but their sibling did. So you went crying to dad who's caught up in the middle of it.
You claimed your brother doesn't let you talk. You didn't say anything and expected him to read your mind and body language to correctly guess what you wanted to say. Come on.
Also, you don't seem to know all that much about POA. The person with ANY kind has more authority and legal rights than the person who has no kind at all. That's a fact. By the way, no one give's a rat's a$$ about how smart you were in school or your old report cards.
I was the Valedictorian of my graduating class of more than 400 students. This is the first time I've ever mentioned it. The forum here is a support group for caregivers and for people who need advice about matters concerning the elderly. It is not a college admissions office. A person's past grades in school don't matter here.

bundleofjoy, I did not intentionally look through my report cards. They were in a box where I had personal papers that I was retrieving. And yes after what I just went through seeing all A's and the a from the president of the university, things I had forgotten, make me feel that I there's something good in me. In fact it says to me that I will do fantastic work again!

BurntCaregiver, You said "The person with ANY kind has more authority and legal rights than the person who doesn't. That's a fact."

Really? I just heard from an attorney who told me otherwise.

dear OP,

i see.

i just hope it all works out well — for you, your father! wishing you well.

The story is getting strange. I hope OP you’re not pulling anyone’s leg.

Side-note:
As you know, how well I did in 6th grade or university, is utterly unconnected to how well I make decisions in my life, or decisions for my elderly LOs.

High school or college, what’s the difference Lisa. You can’t or won’t take on dad yourself, saving whatever inheritance he has to be split between you and bro. You can’t expect him to prioritize your inheritance either just because he might need it less than you either, or let him keep it until the end for dignity reasons.

You don’t need your bros approval right now to bring your dad takeout right now or do whatever chores you do for him right now. But if you keep riling dad, brother is going to make that less possible so you don’t upset him.

Lisa, please read the stories from we who have had to place our parents. The last thing anyone needs is someone meddling and riling them up. If you can’t take on what brother is, not even a fraction, and are not qualified to do the labor yourself, you are gonna have to let bro take the lead.

Lisa,
You have an attorney. GREAT. I am going to wish him or her the best of luck and leave you to him (or her).
So far I am sympathetic to :
one dad
one brother
one sister-in-law
AND
one attorney.
So we can see that I am NOT without sympathy.
Burnt, you often give me a giggle, but today you really had me laughing out loud.
I have to say I love Forum.
Lisa, I think YOU love it too. You can fight here without upsetting your Dad. As the young like to say today "It's all good". (It isn't, really, but I am fond of their saying it).

Lisatrevor says, "BurntCaregiver, You said "The person with ANY kind (of POA) has more authority and legal rights than the person who doesn't. That's a fact."

Really? I just heard from an attorney who told me otherwise.

You're kidding right? How would YOU, w/o any POA at all, have as much rights or MORE rights, than your brother who was appointed POA by your father? You do understand that POA=Power of Attorney?

Senseless & nonsensical words. Your posts are getting more & more unhinged as the day goes on.

I for one am done with this entire matter and finished responding to 'lisatrevor', whoever you are, and all of your ongoing posts here. Enough is enough.

Poodle, I question this too, my leg is feeling awfully stretched out right now, to tell you the truth.

Wishing you the best of luck AND the ability to keep your priorities on your FATHER'S BEST INTERESTS, and not your own ego driven desires.

i agree with what you say poodle.

lisatrevor,

Do you have an attorney sitting right next to you? If not how would it possible for you to have called one, had a discussion about POA, and then gotten back to my comment so promptly? I only made the comment a few minutes ago.

Lisa, so I wanted to respond to tge “positive feedback” comment with a story of my own.

Very recently, I posted asking about how we could get wheelchair bound mil and fil up steps to a boat. I believe you were also on that thread and I didn’t hear from you or anyone else any oh Peggy you are such a good person about this, because it was physically a stupid idea. After reading the feedback I told so that it was not tenable and why. I didn’t have to praise him to get the point across.

Please stop with wanting your family to validate you. The more you go on as you have been, the more you will be wasting your own resources in a futile effort to even see dad.

What type of POA does your brother have? Depending on the answer will determine if you or your father have any say regarding your father’s care.

Lisa, I posted what I understood a POA to mean. I held my Moms, I now hold my nephews.

At this point if your Dad is competent your brothers POA is not in effect and he can't force Dad to do anything he does not want to do. Really, even if found Dad is incompetent to make decisions brother can't force Dad to do anything but he also does not have to support him. Dad will have to use his money for his care. When gone then he will have to probably be placed in care if he is deemed 24/7 care and no one to do the caring. Seems from what you have written, Dad seems to let brother make the decisions.

Unless otherwise specified POA is active and valid when the principal signs it

Lisa, you can’t maintain just dads aides by yourself, and it seems bro and his wife may have given you one last shot at trying to maintain with your time and labor, but you can’t, so they are moving to the next step.

At this point it would serve you well to actually talk up AL living with your father. The Atria near me offers shopping trips, walks to the park, guest lecturers and even happy hour with the alcohol. I could probably have more friends in a month than I have had over five years. Reassure him that you’ll visit, bring takeout or better yet supplies as als don’t supply them.

Because that will get back to your bro.

Or you can keep encouraging his distress at the thought of being placed without an alternative plan that you can provide. Don’t even agree when he cries about being placed, before or after. The more you do this, the more bro will hear about it, and when he does, he’s going to exclude you even harder than pizza nights and being rude. If he even finds out that you engaged an attorney, he might actually engage one himself and talk to you only through them. This might even include an order that you are not allowed to contact dad whatsoever until you spend thousands more of your own funds in hopes of getting a supervised visit.

You need to salvage this relationship with bro so you can have a relationship with dad. The way you do that is to get on board with this plan and volunteer to help with the visits and shopping and all this. They won’t let you do that if all dad is is more agitated.

PeggySue2020, thank you. That seems like good advice, which is very different than your other comments. But the relationship with my brother is over for good. It was heading there. I knew when the appointment with service providers was set up for me. My brother was on the war path. I remember shortly after he told me his wife made a subtle condescending remark to me. She knew things would go bad. They had it all planned, probably for months. Well definitely for a while. What I can't figure out is: Why doesn't he let me asks questions when he tells me what's happening? Isn't that the mature, recommended by professionals, way to handle these kinds of issues? No. it's not. They want total control.

To be very frank, I have been scared all day that my brother was going to pull something, like coming over and causing a major scene. Maybe that's overblown. I can be absolutely sure he's steaming mad and it will not go away soon. Probably ever. Right now him and his wife are colluding something that will inflict more pain for me. Friday pizza night? Ha. They will try to torture me.

I hope I'm wrong. All I would say to him is: I agree with your plans. Can you just please listen to what I have to say? You are telling me things. Now I want to tell you things. Things that may not even be related but important to dad's care. Please listen! My guess to his response: "Shut the hell up.".

Lisa, tell us some of the things you’d personally say to him, as opposed to telling just ppl on the internet…as well as what you’ve already told bro.

I would say "You told me that you are making plans to put dad in assisted living home where you think he will have a better quality of life. I agree with that. But why are you not allowing me to ask any questions and even say anything?

When my brother told me that he was making plans for my father to be put into assisted living (which was a complete surprise) I said "Does dad know?" The response was "Shut up". Then I said "Where is the facility". His response "Shut up." Then I said "I want to tell you about an incident that happened to dad the other day." Response "Shut up."

So you can see how fultile it is, given what I have already told you.

Ah. In this case, just reinforce bros sense of control as this will in the long term bolster yours. For instance, next time you see dad, he will probably still be upset at moving to al. You tell him that you’ve both agreed that’s best and leave it be. Then text bro to tell him. It’s less likely that bro will respond with shut up.