I think AC is as afraid as any other entity to take it on. Best we just scroll on by when we aren't interested in it. I have left quite a few threads because of rampant religiosity. It's enough for me that it's still our free will what to engage in and what just to pass on by. Barb said it best. Religion isn't a matter of fact; it's a matter of Faith. Works for me.
I still can recall the good old days of being called a "Practicing Witch" right here. Funny enough, Wiccan is also considered a religion. But as an atheist I am afraid I can't even go Witchy unless it's Halloween or I change a letter or two in the word!
The kids today have an expression: "It's all good". It isn't, of course. There's plenty that isn't good. But in cases like this I DO love the expression. For me it's annoying but harmless. UNLESS, as cwillie says, there are any who think to waylay a helpless person in their last helpless hours with proslytizing. That, IMHO would be nothing short of criminal intrusion.
I figure that, as long as AC leaves standing these "religious" and/or "political" discussions, I might as well just enjoy them.
JoAnn I messaged the forum and asked that this entire thread be removed, instead they shifted it over to discussions. Yeah, discussions about religion is what this forum is all about 😖
I really don't think this is a subject that should be discussed on this forum. Just reading the responses, we are all in different places when it comes to religion.
You asked 2 different questions in your post, then proceeded to answer your own question by saying: " Yes its a good idea to pray for the dying, some will get the opportunity to make peace for their sins and ALSO for them to feel at peace."
You can silently pray for whomever you wish, obviously. If I were dying and you, a stranger who I assume is not an ordained minister or clergy person, came to me to help me "make peace for my sins" I'd ask you to leave immediately.
As a newcomer to the forum, know that our purpose here is to help caregivers to elders get answers to their questions or concerns. You may want to fill out your profile so we know who you're caring for when responding to your posts.
Your question, at the top and the body of the question are 2 different things. Is it a good idea to pray FOR the dying? Is at the top of this page. If you believe in prayer then I am sure you feel that it is a good idea to pray FOR the dying.
Is it a good initiave to pray WITH the dying.. This is in the bottom part of your question. If a person wants you to pray with them then yes. If a person is a non-believer, or is uncomfortable with the prayers you chose then no it is not a good idea if it does not bring comfort. If you still want to pray for that person then you can do so quietly, privately.
I was brought up Catholic but an currrently and for a long time non practicing. That does not mean I don't pray. I have had a lot of long conversations with God and She and I have been through a lot together. I find more comfort in a "conversation" rather than a "prayer".
So to use a "today" term...You do You. If praying for someone gives you comfort then pray. If praying with someone gives them comfort then pray. But if praying for someone or with someone brings them stress then stop. Keep your prayers between your ears.
LOL Geaton. You are deluded if you think people have to ask who is at their door pushing God, it's self evident. And it's also blatantly obvious AgingCare and therefore A Pace For Mom have no problem with the repeated christian focus of this thread and many others since they refuse to remove it. And Alva - if I wanted to have "fun" debating theology I'd let the JW's in my front door. I'll refrain from saying anything more that will almost certainly offend, I'm gone...
cwillie, when we do street evangelism and ask people if they want prayer, they never ask us what religion we are, and we don't ask them. If they tell us, that's fine. Literally 100% of the time they don't care and are happy that we pray for them. They often weep.
Here is what drives a Christian's concern about "deathbed" salvation: in scripture, while Christ was hanging on the cross (an innocent man wrongly being punished) he had self-admitted criminals hanging on either side of him. One angrily mocked him with the crowd. Christ made no effort to force or argue him into heaven. The other recognized Christ for who He was, accepted his Godhood. Then was told by Christ himself that he'd be in paradise with him that day. That robber never lived a Godly (or religious) life, and probably never thought about his final destination until he was hung next to Christ. There is no other requirement for salvation than to admit being a sinner in need of a savior and to accept Christ as that savior. Many people are forced to think about their death as it is in progress. Who would want to deny someone this opportunity...and peaceful passing?
Also, if there is no God and someone prays for a dying person (who doesn't reject it) what harm has been done? BUT... if there *is* a God and people prevent prayer and an opportunit for salvation, this is profound and lasting consequences.
If I think what I believe is "awesome sauce" that saves me and brings me peace and love, why would I be so selfish as to not share it with others? For me, it's like one formerly starving beggar telling another currently starving beggar where I found the free all-u-can-eat gourmet buffet. Why would I keep it to myself, especially if another beggar told *me* where to find it and it saved my life?
Respectfully, just because you knew a person all your life (parents, children) does NOT mean you know what's in their mind while they are staring death in the face. You've never been in that position. Sure, a person can think they'll know what they want, will say or do...but what if the fear and immenence changes their mind? Who is anyone to stand in the way of giving them that choice (if they don't actively reject it)?
Luke 23:39-43 "One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Very personal and I pray a LOT but I don't openly pray for someone who would be offended or angry by it.
Our faith is ours alone. I can't give you mine and you can't give me yours.
We prayed at Daddy's deathbed. Each of the 5 of us who felt we wanted to, and could. Mom asked us to. Only my YS declined, as she is an atheist. The rest of us took a few minutes to pray with whatever was in our hearts. (Yet she sobbed through 4 prayers)
When I had the opportunity to dress mother's body after her death, before we began the clothing--I asked the funeral director if I could offer a prayer. She said "of course" and I was able to do this final act of service for my mom with a calm and loving demeanor.
I often pray with my grands. I prayed with my kids. When I say "You're in my thoughts and prayers", you ARE in my thoughts and prayers.
I would NEVER pray with or for someone who requested there be NO praying. Not out loud, anyway.
We need more spirituality in the world and less judgment. Even tho my MIL absolutely hates me, I pray for her.
Praying for someone to 'find Jesus' on their deathbeds--nope, that's not my thing. Praying for a peaceful, painless passing, or comfort for the family left behind--but NEVER for a last ditch effort to be 'saved'. That's not my 'job'.
Alva - the problem I have with this is not that the OP wants to offer prayers, it's that they want to pray WITH the dying person so they will "get the opportunity to make peace for their sins". I have accepted thoughts and prayers from all kinds of people, but I won't accept proselytizing on the death bed.
Fun discussion here, and I wish OP had posted it in discussions. For me, as an atheist, I have no more reason to reject someone praying for me than to think it would matter. It is fine with me. That is to say, for Them it is "their thing" and has little to do with me. It brings them comfort or hope or peace or a feeling they are helping or whatever it gives them. And there's no way it can HURT me. Now if they were attempting to "SAVE" me, that would become tiresome; I might ask them, as Jesus did, to pray in private--his premise I think that the people who do it "publicly" already HAVE their reward:
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret.' What Does the Bible Say About Praying In Public? - OpenBible.info"
I think this is from the Sermon on the Mount but am not certain. Bible scholars????
I always like the old language of "Verily I say unto you".... but "truly" works as well. The bible can't be beat for poetic. The older versions anyway.
The violence would have come from me, I would have been beyond furious if anyone presumed to know what my mother wanted and needed more than I did. Furthermore if someone is inclined to want prayer they probably have their own spiritual leaders. And we haven't even covered your presumption that the person is Christian - but perhaps I do you a disservice and you would be comfortable with prayers from an Imam or Rabbi too.
I am not a person of faith, so I don't pay for the living or the dying. I would suppose, if you are a person of faith that it would be your natural inclination to pray for both the living and the dying? As they say "Thoughts and prayers". I will do the positive thoughts and you will do the prayers? Everything positive is positive. I hope that the admins will move your interesting question to the "Discussions" platform.
I believe that we should pray for all people living and dying, as there is so much power in prayer as has been proven on this forum with some of the folks on here who have asked for it and needed it. We have seen the mighty hand of God move on their behalf because of prayer, so yes we should pray for all people. As a Christian myself, I have never had anyone turn down the offer to be prayed for regardless of their beliefs. And there have been so many stories of folks being saved and accepting Christ on their death beds, my late husband included(who I'd been praying for for years)who I was told would be dead in 48 hours, but lived another 22 months and is now running the streets of gold in heaven. So yes there is great power in prayer.
And on a side note, I find it interesting and kind of cute that you were the first one to answer your own question.
Would the violence have come from your Mother? Or the family members present? I only ask because it's up to the dying person, not their family, to have the final say as to whether they want discussion/prayer/guidance. If your Mom wasn't conscious, that's a very different issue (for me, anyway). I would never presume to barge in and pray over an incapacitated person unless the family members there invited me to do it. I've been in this scenario in the ER.
NEVER assume that people share your religious beliefs, if you feel compelled to offer prayers always ask permission first. (If someone like you had come into the room where my mother was dying things might have gotten physical)
What a coincidence... I just posted this on another thread not less than a minute ago:
"Some people have a disorder called anosognosia, which means they cannot see their own illness, others are just terrified of death because they don't know what awaits them. Not sure where you Dad is spiritually, but even if he never darkened the doorstep of a house of worship, maybe consider having a chaplain come talk to him. Don't ask if he wants to, just have the chaplain or pastor, etc. show up. In our experience (street evangelism) when we ask perfect strangers with no spiritual connections if we can pray for them about something, they 100% of the time say yes. It brings them peace to know God sent people to care and console them. It may help your Dad also."
I think AC is as afraid as any other entity to take it on. Best we just scroll on by when we aren't interested in it. I have left quite a few threads because of rampant religiosity. It's enough for me that it's still our free will what to engage in and what just to pass on by.
Barb said it best. Religion isn't a matter of fact; it's a matter of Faith. Works for me.
I still can recall the good old days of being called a "Practicing Witch" right here. Funny enough, Wiccan is also considered a religion. But as an atheist I am afraid I can't even go Witchy unless it's Halloween or I change a letter or two in the word!
The kids today have an expression: "It's all good". It isn't, of course. There's plenty that isn't good. But in cases like this I DO love the expression. For me it's annoying but harmless. UNLESS, as cwillie says, there are any who think to waylay a helpless person in their last helpless hours with proslytizing. That, IMHO would be nothing short of criminal intrusion.
I figure that, as long as AC leaves standing these "religious" and/or "political" discussions, I might as well just enjoy them.
You can silently pray for whomever you wish, obviously. If I were dying and you, a stranger who I assume is not an ordained minister or clergy person, came to me to help me "make peace for my sins" I'd ask you to leave immediately.
As a newcomer to the forum, know that our purpose here is to help caregivers to elders get answers to their questions or concerns. You may want to fill out your profile so we know who you're caring for when responding to your posts.
Is it a good idea to pray FOR the dying? Is at the top of this page.
If you believe in prayer then I am sure you feel that it is a good idea to pray FOR the dying.
Is it a good initiave to pray WITH the dying.. This is in the bottom part of your question.
If a person wants you to pray with them then yes.
If a person is a non-believer, or is uncomfortable with the prayers you chose then no it is not a good idea if it does not bring comfort.
If you still want to pray for that person then you can do so quietly, privately.
I was brought up Catholic but an currrently and for a long time non practicing. That does not mean I don't pray. I have had a lot of long conversations with God and She and I have been through a lot together.
I find more comfort in a "conversation" rather than a "prayer".
So to use a "today" term...You do You.
If praying for someone gives you comfort then pray.
If praying with someone gives them comfort then pray.
But if praying for someone or with someone brings them stress then stop. Keep your prayers between your ears.
You are deluded if you think people have to ask who is at their door pushing God, it's self evident.
And it's also blatantly obvious AgingCare and therefore A Pace For Mom have no problem with the repeated christian focus of this thread and many others since they refuse to remove it.
And Alva - if I wanted to have "fun" debating theology I'd let the JW's in my front door.
I'll refrain from saying anything more that will almost certainly offend, I'm gone...
Here is what drives a Christian's concern about "deathbed" salvation: in scripture, while Christ was hanging on the cross (an innocent man wrongly being punished) he had self-admitted criminals hanging on either side of him. One angrily mocked him with the crowd. Christ made no effort to force or argue him into heaven. The other recognized Christ for who He was, accepted his Godhood. Then was told by Christ himself that he'd be in paradise with him that day. That robber never lived a Godly (or religious) life, and probably never thought about his final destination until he was hung next to Christ. There is no other requirement for salvation than to admit being a sinner in need of a savior and to accept Christ as that savior. Many people are forced to think about their death as it is in progress. Who would want to deny someone this opportunity...and peaceful passing?
Also, if there is no God and someone prays for a dying person (who doesn't reject it) what harm has been done? BUT... if there *is* a God and people prevent prayer and an opportunit for salvation, this is profound and lasting consequences.
If I think what I believe is "awesome sauce" that saves me and brings me peace and love, why would I be so selfish as to not share it with others? For me, it's like one formerly starving beggar telling another currently starving beggar where I found the free all-u-can-eat gourmet buffet. Why would I keep it to myself, especially if another beggar told *me* where to find it and it saved my life?
Respectfully, just because you knew a person all your life (parents, children) does NOT mean you know what's in their mind while they are staring death in the face. You've never been in that position. Sure, a person can think they'll know what they want, will say or do...but what if the fear and immenence changes their mind? Who is anyone to stand in the way of giving them that choice (if they don't actively reject it)?
Luke 23:39-43
"One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Our faith is ours alone. I can't give you mine and you can't give me yours.
We prayed at Daddy's deathbed. Each of the 5 of us who felt we wanted to, and could. Mom asked us to. Only my YS declined, as she is an atheist. The rest of us took a few minutes to pray with whatever was in our hearts. (Yet she sobbed through 4 prayers)
When I had the opportunity to dress mother's body after her death, before we began the clothing--I asked the funeral director if I could offer a prayer. She said "of course" and I was able to do this final act of service for my mom with a calm and loving demeanor.
I often pray with my grands. I prayed with my kids. When I say "You're in my thoughts and prayers", you ARE in my thoughts and prayers.
I would NEVER pray with or for someone who requested there be NO praying. Not out loud, anyway.
We need more spirituality in the world and less judgment. Even tho my MIL absolutely hates me, I pray for her.
Praying for someone to 'find Jesus' on their deathbeds--nope, that's not my thing. Praying for a peaceful, painless passing, or comfort for the family left behind--but NEVER for a last ditch effort to be 'saved'. That's not my 'job'.
I have accepted thoughts and prayers from all kinds of people, but I won't accept proselytizing on the death bed.
“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others.
Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret.'
What Does the Bible Say About Praying In Public? - OpenBible.info"
I think this is from the Sermon on the Mount but am not certain. Bible scholars????
I always like the old language of "Verily I say unto you".... but "truly" works as well. The bible can't be beat for poetic. The older versions anyway.
And we haven't even covered your presumption that the person is Christian - but perhaps I do you a disservice and you would be comfortable with prayers from an Imam or Rabbi too.
I would suppose, if you are a person of faith that it would be your natural inclination to pray for both the living and the dying? As they say "Thoughts and prayers". I will do the positive thoughts and you will do the prayers? Everything positive is positive.
I hope that the admins will move your interesting question to the "Discussions" platform.
As a Christian myself, I have never had anyone turn down the offer to be prayed for regardless of their beliefs.
And there have been so many stories of folks being saved and accepting Christ on their death beds, my late husband included(who I'd been praying for for years)who I was told would be dead in 48 hours, but lived another 22 months and is now running the streets of gold in heaven.
So yes there is great power in prayer.
And on a side note, I find it interesting and kind of cute that you were the first one to answer your own question.
(If someone like you had come into the room where my mother was dying things might have gotten physical)
"Some people have a disorder called anosognosia, which means they cannot see their own illness, others are just terrified of death because they don't know what awaits them. Not sure where you Dad is spiritually, but even if he never darkened the doorstep of a house of worship, maybe consider having a chaplain come talk to him. Don't ask if he wants to, just have the chaplain or pastor, etc. show up. In our experience (street evangelism) when we ask perfect strangers with no spiritual connections if we can pray for them about something, they 100% of the time say yes. It brings them peace to know God sent people to care and console them. It may help your Dad also."