Grief and Death for Non-Believers

It’s terms we all have to deal with. I always say it’s the last thing I want to deal with. Folks often go back and forth on beliefs and who knows. If we knew there would finally be peace on earth. At least we are dealing with these feelings and in the end that’s all we can do. Peace on your journey.

In defence of my comments yesterday... I said I believe MOST people are doubtful, I absolutely know zealots, and not just Christian ones.

In reading the posts, I think those who want to believe in a religion or spirituality but can't find the right fit are those trying to have their "belonging" need met. In Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid, Basic Survival is the largest need (water, air, shelter) then Safety (health, financial), then up to Belonging (friendships, family), and on up to the smaller Esteem and Self-Acutalization.

I think those of us who did or do want some connection to religion or belief of some kind are seeking to fill the Belonging need. When I considered that years ago, then that need for some belief in any religion (I researched Buddhism looking for something that fit my science-based personality) fell away. That led me to accept there's no proof of a god.

I do believe there is a plane for souls, we just haven't been able to prove it. While there could be a scientific reason for real mediums aren't really connecting with spirits or souls but have instead a brain to connect with our own brains to discover our loved ones' memories. Even if that's the case, I find it comforting and not afraid of death.

People say that stuff because they don't know what else to say. I hate it when people tell me "You'll be OK". Really? How do they know that, do they they have crystal ball? I'm the only one who gets to say if I'm going to be OK or not. It's dismissive and ignores the fact we are going through one of life's most difficult times.
Confronting people about the uselessness of their musings probably won't lead to anything good. So... I suppose we accept what is and deal with the situation one day at a time. Take care of ourselves and live to the best of our standards.

I too am at a loss about what to say when someone is ill or has died, telling someone I'm thinking of you just doesn't seem to carry the same weight as saying you're in my prayers, and the simple but true you have my sympathy is often seen as trite and is sometimes even greeted with hostility.
I like Windy's answer of giving the dying the kind of comfort that you know they need even if you don't share their beliefs. I also like MountainMoose's suggestion to praise them for a life well lived and to reference those who have gone on before - even if you can't bring yourself to say that the dead are waiting in heaven I suppose you can talk about imagining how wonderful it would be if they are.

It's a delight to find a thread dealing with this hot button topic. This is definitely a thread on which to spend some time reading, leisurely, with a nice hot cup of coffee, tea or hot chocolate.

Until that time, I'd just like to add that I'm one who resents and finds irritating blasé platitudes about a "better place", being with a deity, etc

I wish people would spend some time studying history, and all the civilizations which have existed before us, playing special attention to the deities they had, and how those deities changed with the various civilizations. There's so much to be gained from studying the history of religion and the deities, before religion was more codified and commercialized.

There's also a lot to be gained by studying the progress of science throughout the ages. W/o telescopes and grounded scientific theory, it's easy to try to find solace and comfort in what people experience at that time.

A very interesting theory is propounded by Dan Brown in his latest book, Origins. Following a general pattern of his earlier books, there's a lot of action, discussion, theories, speculation, around the topic which focuses on the basis: Where did we come from and where are we going?

The plot segues off though to the question of past extinction events, and whether or not another is in the future, probably well past our lifetimes, although a drastically changing event of a different nature could be on the horizon.

But the fascinating aspect is the theory that the next major event will be technological, involving Artificial Intelligence. The theory that AI can and may overtake human action, controlling in various ways, is one that really can be said to exist already. The question I think is how far it will go, and how easily or strongly humans will resist it, if we can.

Think about all the technological devices in existence today and how they're encroaching on individual decision making. Do you use Siri or whatever those home devices are that tell you what time it is? What the weather will be?

Driverless cars are already experimental. Can you imagine riding in a car over which you REALLY may have no control? Can you think of all the recalls that have occurred during the history of the auto and imagine allowing yourself to ride in a car that may have defective and dangerous components?

Can you accept that drones are becoming more popular, and that nongovernment agencies and individuals are using them? Photos and videos are already out of control with people creating them w/o any permission of the individuals who are subjects of the videos or photos, and posting them on social media, also w/o permission of the subjects.

I keep asking myself, whatever happened to individual initiative, strength and curiosity, to adaptation, to creation of music, literature, art? Will a Siri "relative" create the next Venus de Milo? The next pseudo Shakespearean masterpiece? The next Beethoven substitute?

Will adaptations of existing religions try to present solutions to a controlling tech device, especially if the devices literally become omnipotent?

Every living being has a built in survival instinct. If you fall into the lake and don't know how to swim, you're sure going to splash around a lot to try to save yourself.

I think humans are hard wired to protect and prolong their lives. This life is all we know. Death is the unknown. No one had ever come back from the grave to let us know what's going on.
(Well, there have been people describing what happened to them in a moment of death then later brought back to life. Mostly all of their experiences are "spiritual" in nature.)

We have to accept death because there is no alternative and we are powerless against it. But we're programmed for life. So it makes sense that we are comforted by our "religious" beliefs that a part of us (soul) lives on forever. We only have to worry about the "crossover" (physically dying) but it's not the end of everything or you.

Certain faiths believe that we (as souls) have always existed with God (as souls). We are either sent into a random life, are sent to a pre planned existence or we choose our time to be born and to whom. We live our human lives (with our souls), then, when our bodies give out, our souls return from whence they came (God/Heaven) to continue on.

There are many theories as to why we come into human form. One theory is that we (our souls also) are being "refined". We're supposed to learn lessons here, presumably to be more humble/grateful/God-like in the spirit realm. Even if you don't agree with that, life certainly has its experiences!

IMO, I don't believe that anyone believes 100% of everything that their "religion" teaches. I don't. But I try to stick with the things that are the best for everyone and are based out of love.

Science can neither confirm nor deny God. Science needs hard facts to prove their claims. God lives in the spiritual realm. Since we don't reside there, there would be no proving it.
The two are like oil and water, they don't mix.

There are a lot of things that we don't have "proof" of. Will the earth be here tomorrow?

For me, I don't WANT to be the highest being in my world. I'm flawed. I screw up. I can't, at times, keep it together. I WANT there to be a perfect "model" for me, someone I can look up to (no human fits that bill). I have that model because I believe in God. I don't need "proof".

Even better that my God promises me that my soul (the very essence of who I am-what makes me-ME) will be with Him and live forever.

I could comfort anyone with any spiritual/religious belief (except Satanism). It wouldn't matter to me which diety they believed in (Budda, Krishna, Mohamed, Guru Granth, etc.) But I'm still at a loss for someone who doesn't believe in anything.

Everyone else - I will respond more tomorrow if not later tonight. Got told today mom possibly has less than 6 months.  She doesn't know.  I'm spending the evening watching movies with her.  (Currently on "A League of Their Own".) 

Speaking of movies, Dorianne- have you seen Defending Your Life with Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep?

This movie gives a good picture of how I previously believed the “afterlife” worked - for the part, with a God like entity as the “machine”. There’s a brief explanation in the beginning of the movie where something along the line of “the universe is
like a big machine...”
I highly recommend this film for non traditional, end-of-life thinkers. It’s a comedy with a message so an open mind and a sense of humor is required.

Unfortunately, since my fathers passing about six years ago - for multiple reasons - I pretty much have lost any “faith” that there is anything after...

And honestly I feel the same as you. I WISH I could believe. It’s a whole lot more frightening to think that in the end - it’s all ended. Period.

I've got to say that the whole Christian idea of heaven as an exclusive club for believers is one of the things that is one of my biggest "stumbling blocks". So I'm supposed to look forward to reuniting with the very few from my past who might have made it there while being separated for all eternity from pretty much everyone who means anything to me now.... how is that comforting?

Hear hear, CW - and what about the ones you'd have gone to some lengths to avoid?

"Mary-Ann is laid to rest
Safe at last on Abraham's breast -
Which may be nuts for Mary-Ann
But is certainly rough on Abraham."

But remember, cwillie- all you - they - have to do is confess or ask to have the offending sins forgiven and to be saved and vola’ - they are, well...saved. Or Born Again.

Well, I guess that actually does depend on which version of organized religion one needs to subscribe to. Mortal sins - seven of them, more or less - may or may not actually be forgiven and in some beliefs it can depend on ones actual contrition or a sufficient act of contrition.

Something that even as a child, I found a little fishy. I mean “so you can go through life commiting sin and as long as you ask to be forgiven right before you die you can still go to heaven?” “Yes”, my mother would answer, “but you need to be sincere”.

How convenient.

Who forgives those who truly repent...

I agree, again. I spent many a chilly hour gazing at architecture while inwardly thinking "define 'truly', please." I don't think we were ever meant to believe that God is fooled by people who are just getting anxious about consequences.

Years later I stumbled over this, I think it's Chasidic but don't take my word for it and this is only from memory -

"What will the Day of Judgement be like? Only this. God will call you to him and tell you the right you did and the wrong, and that will be your heaven and your hell. But with perfect understanding comes forgiveness."

I can't tell you what comfort I found that. As someone who can't stand detective stories that don't tie up all the loose ends in proper order I would love to hope that, at some point, everything will be *explained.*

Personally I'm scared stiff of reincarnation. How cruel have I been to earwigs? - and what if vengeance really is the Lord's..?

One reason that I take issue with many sympathy cards is that they tend to be too preachy for my taste. I would feel it absurd to send some preachy sermon to a grieving person. I shudder, to think of it. So, I tend to pick something much more reserved and respectful. Taking into account that not all people have my religious beliefs.

I consider myself spiritual and am now attending church. (Grew up in church and it caused me to be unimpressed with organized religion for years.) I respect all people's faith or lack thereof. I'm not sure what I would do if I didn't have my faith....hmm.....because I pray a lot. Not just asking for help, but, giving thanks. It makes my life better and so, it's difficult for me to imagine letting that go. Oh my. What a void. And, what if I'm wrong? What if there is no afterlife? Well, I'm much happier here and what did it harm? And if I don't have faith and I'm wrong....well....I suppose God will understand, but, what about the misery here on earth. I would have missed out on his comfort. So, to each his own.

 When people try to give comfort, I'd try to just consider that they mean no harm and that their heart is in the right place. (I know that sounds trite.)

It may be well-worn but it isn't trite! And it's far better than the alternative: I genuinely feel sorry for those who are *offended* when some well-meaning nurse or neighbour or something innocently offers them a blessing or a prayer. I'll take all the blessings I can get, thanks! - what possible harm can it do?

It's the cards that bang on about celebrating memories and lives well-lived that worry me. I want to say to the senders "are you sure about that?!"

Stopped here for a quick check on the progress of this interesting debate and got my chuckles for the day. Once I saw that CM had posted, I knew there would be some dry, subtle and clever humor. CM, you did not disappoint me.

From now on, I'll wonder about my actions every time I vanquish an earwig, perhaps even the other garden pests. I've dispatched a few hundred ants when they decided to colonize one of my rooms. Would that mean that at sometime I'll be punished myself? Barred from ever gardening again? Horrors.

Thanks to everyone who's raising rational issues and contributing to this interesting discussion. You've made my day (and a little bitty chocolate cupcake helped too).

This site never ceases to amaze me. I’ve never been able to think this subject outloud without someone getting all riled up.

Honestly, I don’t know what I believe with 100% certainty. No that’s not true. I do believe the human body was designed by some superior being. It’s just way too complex a machine. One small glitch in the pumping system or electrical system and you have a major breakdown. Like a machine.

So, I guess we are a machine with a soul.

Beyond that I haven’t a clue.

I too struggle with organized religion. For example, commit awful sins, ask forgiveness, fine, you are good to go. Why not just use your brain, be honest and true, treat others as you want to be treated, I don’t know, now it sounds like religion.

Grief. I think that comes from our soul. Deaths are all different. The expected. The unexpected. The old. The young.

Comforting the dying. I have made no promises to a dying loved one I can not realistically keep. I have said I will take care of things or I will do the best I can. Loved ones that knew me understood I would do my best but everyone has their limits.

I have asked for Chaplains, Ministers, Priests, etc, for loved ones if that’s what they wanted or needed.

I think that when it comes to comforting someone in their last days, hours or minutes on this earth - it’s not particularly important what the comfortER believes but rather the person who is passing - what they believe and need/want to hear.

One of my sister-in-laws was my best friend from about age three until high school. She lived a few houses away and is just a year older than me.

My SIL was brought up Catholic- her mother is a hardcore- HARDCORE- Catholic. This woman never liked me much and the feeling is mutual. However, in the unlikely event I were to be with her in her final moments I’m confident I would be able to hold her hand and tell her everything she needs to hear about going to heaven. 

And - I believe I’d be able to do it with genuine caring and compassion- with
no feeling or thought of betraying my true self. I’m not saying I’m all that - it’s just that if nothing else, being my own parents caregiver/care manager has taught me a thing or two - hopefully- about being a more compassionate person. 

I did not address personal death. Again I don’t know where our journey ends.

I was terrified of death when I was young. Who will take care of my kids? Now after seeing death and realizing there is certainly a time for death, I no longer fear death. I don’t fear where I will end up when my body ( the ( the machine) dies. I guess my soul or spirit may go somewhere.

We face so many unknowns during our lives. I assume our destination is truly one of those unknowns. I hope I will have lived a decent enough life that my soul lands in a pleasant destination if it continues after death.

I hope this isn’t offensive but my Dad once said he hoped he didn’t end up at the big “BarBque down below”. I would like to avoid that scenario.

Couldn't agree more.

And on a practical point, any one of us may find it useful to know that in an emergency *anyone* can baptise a person - you don't have to be a Christian, even. If somebody in extremis suddenly wants to profess faith, or wants their dying infant admitted, all you need is some water and the words "I baptise you in the name of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." None of your business whether it has meaning or not, the important thing is that it comforts them - I couldn't agree more, CW.

I've just realised that I have to declare a conflict of interest. Funny, but I'd blanked it.

I have a cousin who conducts humanist funerals. I haven't been to one, to be fair, and he may make a fine job of it and have very satisfied customers - presumably he must, in fact, because he's been doing it for years, ever since he left his wife and retired from banking.

But quite frankly I think I'd rather have Torquemada or Ayatollah Khomeini at mine than leave it to him to spread comfort.

countrymouse: The best funeral/memorial service I attended was a dear friend who had a ... spiritual-type of service. The "conductor" of the service "saged" everyone with smoldering sage bunch to purify us. There was no religion but it was beautifully spiritual. In this area at funerals or memorials to ask anyone who wants to speak of the person to speak. It's wonderful. I was prepared to with some writings of hers, which I was so happy to hear her family even knew you wrote! Anyway it was a beautiful service.

Side note: When her son and daughter poured her ashes over the cliff, the updraft ended up coating all of us! Not gross, but for me rather comforting. I miss her very much.

Then there was the dyslexic agnostic.......

Wasn’t sure if there really is a dog...

Dear Countrymouse,

I find what you write very comforting. I have to agree with you, I can use all the blessings and prayers people are willing to give even though I'm not sure myself.

I attended a graveside service of my uncle who was an agnostic. We don't know what he was towards the end, because he got dementia and he may have changed with that regard, but, most of his life he was NOT impressed with religion. His adult children honored him with stories about his growing up, family stories, and a old time spiritual song by some authentic gospel singers. (His daughter joined in.) It was fitting and no mention was made of the Bible or scripture. I can't recall if they had any prayer, but, I think they did one.

Dorianne, I unfortunately didn’t have to comfort my mom as she was too far gone & I missed her passing as I was on a plane. I didn’t know how to comfort my dad. In the end my dad comforted me. I asked him if he was scared, he said no. I played into my dads catholic beliefs and asked him if he was ready to see whoever I mentioned that was already in “heaven” and he said yes. If that was my dads belief then that was what I’d give him to the end. I just wanted to make sure he wasn’t scared as I fear I will be scared when my time comes.
I’m scared of the inevitable, the one thing I cannot control or get out of no matter how hard I may try. That realization hit me when I was in 6th grade and never left me.
It is very hard to comfort someone dying but so far the people I’ve experienced, my dad, my uncle, my brother...they were excepting and “ready” so it was really me who needed to comforting.

Hey all, I'm still here. Not really in a good head space to participate today either, but I'm sooooo glad this thread has some interest! I feel a lot less alone.....

We definitely are not alone, at the very least until we have decidedly left this dimension and are no longer in a position to care either way. Re/read John Donne's sermon "no man is an island." However you personally feel about your fellow human beings - love them, loathe them or just wish they could do better - you *are* connected, like it or not.

Went down that crazy road called new age crap with Eckart Tolle being the first driver.
Google Marcia Montenegro-CANA. She really opened my eyes and gave me a big WOW!!! Burned lots of books and got rid of tons of junk that pertain to new age.
I'll probably get a lot of criticism for this but I don't care.

Beautiful post SueC1957!

R.I.P the Library of Alexandria, the Aztec Codices, and Bella's New Age Book Collection. :-(