Grief and Death for Non-Believers

Thanks Bella.

I'll come back to the thread in a more serious way, but I'm finding it difficult to dive into the depth of this topic just at the moment, in the middle of organizing mom's palliative care plan. 

Gmorning Dorianne, been rereading posts and saw where you were told your mom has 6 months. Big hug💜

A little levity. Also, 5th one down. :-D

distractify.com/trending/2018/02/27/mMXgq/death-in-gif-form

Dear lvkdra,

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I appreciate your words. I think in the end that is what I long for the most. Peace. No Anxiety nor fears.

Perhaps because I do believe, I have no fears, no anxieties about not being in the human body anymore when it stops breathing. I will be 66 next month if I still am. My Mom had cancer when I was a teen in high school. The week that humans first landed on the moon in July of 1969 she came home from Mercy Hospital after 6 weeks of recovery, having had 25 feet of her intestines removed, complete hysterectomy, a permanent colostomy, several weeks of radiation and some early types of chemotherapy. She recovered fairly well for a few years, but succumbed 4 years later, with other organs having metastasized cancer when she was 58 and I was 21. In those 4 years she did so many sewing projects, cranking out snowsuits for grand kids, Christening clothing for young grand-babies, and bedding for a bassinet, draperies for the house, suits & dresses for herself and me. She sewed like she knew any day could be her last. Dad's Mom, in our house having been taken cared of by both Mom & Dad, & me, died the summer after I had graduated, and before I went off to college. A year later Dad survived with Mom's care from a heart attack, and I moved back home. Dad was doing better, but then Mom began to not feel as well as she was before. The Cancer had re-emerged it's ugly head causing knife-like stabbing pains during the spring of '73. She had a doctor check up and scans - they said it was back, she did not want any chemo again. She felt she had done enough and it was time to go - whenever that was going to be, it was okay with her, she was ready to move onward for she felt she had done all that she could with raising my older brothers and me. Mom was a believer, just not a church goer. Her faith was strong, and it was between her and her God, her Heavenly Father and His Son, and His Spirit. She was never a push it down anyone's throat kind of Christian, she just lived as she thought HE would want her to do so. That is what a Christian should do. Just BE an Example of how one should live their life, so that the Example speaks for itself ...... When a person comes to grips with their selves and what they add up to, usually they will see that there is nothing they can do without God that has any lasting effect on the rest of humanity, only what HE has done to create our redemption & salvation has an eternal effect. Either we will be with Him, or we will not be with Him. We all have our freedom of choice. He does not force anyone to believe on Him. I would rather choose to believe on Him, and in Him, and by that choice I have my peace of mind. What ever you choose, I wish you your peace of your mind, so that you may live in the here and now with confidence and no anxiety nor fears.

Dear Rosyday,

Thank you for sharing your dad's wise words. No truer words were spoken.

People think you must be religious to deal with grief and death. I don't see why my buying into a fantasy would make any difference. I will grieve and I will die. My father, a wise man and personally religious, made several non religious statements that give me comfort. " To grieve deeply means you had the good fortune of a relationship worth grieving. It is a high cost, but one most people would choose to pay". And while he was actually dying... "Dying is frightening but thinking of being dead is not. Either there is nothing, so I won't experience it, or there is an afterlife which I won't know about until I get there. Whether I believe or not, I am as prepared as anyone else".

R.I.P the Library of Alexandria, the Aztec Codices, and Bella's New Age Book Collection. :-(

Went down that crazy road called new age crap with Eckart Tolle being the first driver.
Google Marcia Montenegro-CANA. She really opened my eyes and gave me a big WOW!!! Burned lots of books and got rid of tons of junk that pertain to new age.
I'll probably get a lot of criticism for this but I don't care.

Beautiful post SueC1957!

We definitely are not alone, at the very least until we have decidedly left this dimension and are no longer in a position to care either way. Re/read John Donne's sermon "no man is an island." However you personally feel about your fellow human beings - love them, loathe them or just wish they could do better - you *are* connected, like it or not.

Hey all, I'm still here. Not really in a good head space to participate today either, but I'm sooooo glad this thread has some interest! I feel a lot less alone.....

Dorianne, I unfortunately didn’t have to comfort my mom as she was too far gone & I missed her passing as I was on a plane. I didn’t know how to comfort my dad. In the end my dad comforted me. I asked him if he was scared, he said no. I played into my dads catholic beliefs and asked him if he was ready to see whoever I mentioned that was already in “heaven” and he said yes. If that was my dads belief then that was what I’d give him to the end. I just wanted to make sure he wasn’t scared as I fear I will be scared when my time comes.
I’m scared of the inevitable, the one thing I cannot control or get out of no matter how hard I may try. That realization hit me when I was in 6th grade and never left me.
It is very hard to comfort someone dying but so far the people I’ve experienced, my dad, my uncle, my brother...they were excepting and “ready” so it was really me who needed to comforting.

I attended a graveside service of my uncle who was an agnostic. We don't know what he was towards the end, because he got dementia and he may have changed with that regard, but, most of his life he was NOT impressed with religion. His adult children honored him with stories about his growing up, family stories, and a old time spiritual song by some authentic gospel singers. (His daughter joined in.) It was fitting and no mention was made of the Bible or scripture. I can't recall if they had any prayer, but, I think they did one.

Dear Countrymouse,

I find what you write very comforting. I have to agree with you, I can use all the blessings and prayers people are willing to give even though I'm not sure myself.

Then there was the dyslexic agnostic.......

Wasn’t sure if there really is a dog...

countrymouse: The best funeral/memorial service I attended was a dear friend who had a ... spiritual-type of service. The "conductor" of the service "saged" everyone with smoldering sage bunch to purify us. There was no religion but it was beautifully spiritual. In this area at funerals or memorials to ask anyone who wants to speak of the person to speak. It's wonderful. I was prepared to with some writings of hers, which I was so happy to hear her family even knew you wrote! Anyway it was a beautiful service.

Side note: When her son and daughter poured her ashes over the cliff, the updraft ended up coating all of us! Not gross, but for me rather comforting. I miss her very much.

I've just realised that I have to declare a conflict of interest. Funny, but I'd blanked it.

I have a cousin who conducts humanist funerals. I haven't been to one, to be fair, and he may make a fine job of it and have very satisfied customers - presumably he must, in fact, because he's been doing it for years, ever since he left his wife and retired from banking.

But quite frankly I think I'd rather have Torquemada or Ayatollah Khomeini at mine than leave it to him to spread comfort.

Couldn't agree more.

And on a practical point, any one of us may find it useful to know that in an emergency *anyone* can baptise a person - you don't have to be a Christian, even. If somebody in extremis suddenly wants to profess faith, or wants their dying infant admitted, all you need is some water and the words "I baptise you in the name of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." None of your business whether it has meaning or not, the important thing is that it comforts them - I couldn't agree more, CW.

I did not address personal death. Again I don’t know where our journey ends.

I was terrified of death when I was young. Who will take care of my kids? Now after seeing death and realizing there is certainly a time for death, I no longer fear death. I don’t fear where I will end up when my body ( the ( the machine) dies. I guess my soul or spirit may go somewhere.

We face so many unknowns during our lives. I assume our destination is truly one of those unknowns. I hope I will have lived a decent enough life that my soul lands in a pleasant destination if it continues after death.

I hope this isn’t offensive but my Dad once said he hoped he didn’t end up at the big “BarBque down below”. I would like to avoid that scenario.

I think that when it comes to comforting someone in their last days, hours or minutes on this earth - it’s not particularly important what the comfortER believes but rather the person who is passing - what they believe and need/want to hear.

One of my sister-in-laws was my best friend from about age three until high school. She lived a few houses away and is just a year older than me.

My SIL was brought up Catholic- her mother is a hardcore- HARDCORE- Catholic. This woman never liked me much and the feeling is mutual. However, in the unlikely event I were to be with her in her final moments I’m confident I would be able to hold her hand and tell her everything she needs to hear about going to heaven. 

And - I believe I’d be able to do it with genuine caring and compassion- with
no feeling or thought of betraying my true self. I’m not saying I’m all that - it’s just that if nothing else, being my own parents caregiver/care manager has taught me a thing or two - hopefully- about being a more compassionate person. 

This site never ceases to amaze me. I’ve never been able to think this subject outloud without someone getting all riled up.

Honestly, I don’t know what I believe with 100% certainty. No that’s not true. I do believe the human body was designed by some superior being. It’s just way too complex a machine. One small glitch in the pumping system or electrical system and you have a major breakdown. Like a machine.

So, I guess we are a machine with a soul.

Beyond that I haven’t a clue.

I too struggle with organized religion. For example, commit awful sins, ask forgiveness, fine, you are good to go. Why not just use your brain, be honest and true, treat others as you want to be treated, I don’t know, now it sounds like religion.

Grief. I think that comes from our soul. Deaths are all different. The expected. The unexpected. The old. The young.

Comforting the dying. I have made no promises to a dying loved one I can not realistically keep. I have said I will take care of things or I will do the best I can. Loved ones that knew me understood I would do my best but everyone has their limits.

I have asked for Chaplains, Ministers, Priests, etc, for loved ones if that’s what they wanted or needed.

Stopped here for a quick check on the progress of this interesting debate and got my chuckles for the day. Once I saw that CM had posted, I knew there would be some dry, subtle and clever humor. CM, you did not disappoint me.

From now on, I'll wonder about my actions every time I vanquish an earwig, perhaps even the other garden pests. I've dispatched a few hundred ants when they decided to colonize one of my rooms. Would that mean that at sometime I'll be punished myself? Barred from ever gardening again? Horrors.

Thanks to everyone who's raising rational issues and contributing to this interesting discussion. You've made my day (and a little bitty chocolate cupcake helped too).

It may be well-worn but it isn't trite! And it's far better than the alternative: I genuinely feel sorry for those who are *offended* when some well-meaning nurse or neighbour or something innocently offers them a blessing or a prayer. I'll take all the blessings I can get, thanks! - what possible harm can it do?

It's the cards that bang on about celebrating memories and lives well-lived that worry me. I want to say to the senders "are you sure about that?!"

One reason that I take issue with many sympathy cards is that they tend to be too preachy for my taste. I would feel it absurd to send some preachy sermon to a grieving person. I shudder, to think of it. So, I tend to pick something much more reserved and respectful. Taking into account that not all people have my religious beliefs.

I consider myself spiritual and am now attending church. (Grew up in church and it caused me to be unimpressed with organized religion for years.) I respect all people's faith or lack thereof. I'm not sure what I would do if I didn't have my faith....hmm.....because I pray a lot. Not just asking for help, but, giving thanks. It makes my life better and so, it's difficult for me to imagine letting that go. Oh my. What a void. And, what if I'm wrong? What if there is no afterlife? Well, I'm much happier here and what did it harm? And if I don't have faith and I'm wrong....well....I suppose God will understand, but, what about the misery here on earth. I would have missed out on his comfort. So, to each his own.

 When people try to give comfort, I'd try to just consider that they mean no harm and that their heart is in the right place. (I know that sounds trite.)

Who forgives those who truly repent...

I agree, again. I spent many a chilly hour gazing at architecture while inwardly thinking "define 'truly', please." I don't think we were ever meant to believe that God is fooled by people who are just getting anxious about consequences.

Years later I stumbled over this, I think it's Chasidic but don't take my word for it and this is only from memory -

"What will the Day of Judgement be like? Only this. God will call you to him and tell you the right you did and the wrong, and that will be your heaven and your hell. But with perfect understanding comes forgiveness."

I can't tell you what comfort I found that. As someone who can't stand detective stories that don't tie up all the loose ends in proper order I would love to hope that, at some point, everything will be *explained.*

Personally I'm scared stiff of reincarnation. How cruel have I been to earwigs? - and what if vengeance really is the Lord's..?

But remember, cwillie- all you - they - have to do is confess or ask to have the offending sins forgiven and to be saved and vola’ - they are, well...saved. Or Born Again.

Well, I guess that actually does depend on which version of organized religion one needs to subscribe to. Mortal sins - seven of them, more or less - may or may not actually be forgiven and in some beliefs it can depend on ones actual contrition or a sufficient act of contrition.

Something that even as a child, I found a little fishy. I mean “so you can go through life commiting sin and as long as you ask to be forgiven right before you die you can still go to heaven?” “Yes”, my mother would answer, “but you need to be sincere”.

How convenient.

Hear hear, CW - and what about the ones you'd have gone to some lengths to avoid?

"Mary-Ann is laid to rest
Safe at last on Abraham's breast -
Which may be nuts for Mary-Ann
But is certainly rough on Abraham."

I've got to say that the whole Christian idea of heaven as an exclusive club for believers is one of the things that is one of my biggest "stumbling blocks". So I'm supposed to look forward to reuniting with the very few from my past who might have made it there while being separated for all eternity from pretty much everyone who means anything to me now.... how is that comforting?

Speaking of movies, Dorianne- have you seen Defending Your Life with Albert Brooks and Meryl Streep?

This movie gives a good picture of how I previously believed the “afterlife” worked - for the part, with a God like entity as the “machine”. There’s a brief explanation in the beginning of the movie where something along the line of “the universe is
like a big machine...”
I highly recommend this film for non traditional, end-of-life thinkers. It’s a comedy with a message so an open mind and a sense of humor is required.

Unfortunately, since my fathers passing about six years ago - for multiple reasons - I pretty much have lost any “faith” that there is anything after...

And honestly I feel the same as you. I WISH I could believe. It’s a whole lot more frightening to think that in the end - it’s all ended. Period.

Everyone else - I will respond more tomorrow if not later tonight. Got told today mom possibly has less than 6 months.  She doesn't know.  I'm spending the evening watching movies with her.  (Currently on "A League of Their Own".)