Experiencing a crisis of faith.
Even as I write this I am hesitant to make this post. However, it has been on my mind for a few years now. Religion is such a volatile subject and I hope this won't stir up a hornets nest but rather this will be a calm, respectful discussion. My family was Presbyterian. I was brought up going to Sunday school from the start. When I was around 10 yr old I asked that instead of Sunday school, could I go with mom to "the big room" with her. Even then I was looking for answers. The deal in my family was you had to go to church through the 8th grade but after that it was your choice to continuing going or not. I was not satisfied with what I was hearing so I stopped. When I was in college I took several religion classes as electives; History of Religion, World Religions, etc. Though not entirely sure what I was looking for, I knew I still hadnt found any answers. I developed my own religion of sorts - prayed daily, tried to be a good person - even wore a cross around my neck - not particularly in reference of Jesus but more of a daily commitment to be a giving, kind, generous person. I even went a couple of years watching "church on TV" - that's how I viewed it. I became a big fan of Joyce Meyer - who I still think is awesome. I would say as far as religion goes I am maybe a tiny bit more knowledge than your average American. Then in 2008 my dad got sick - never really made a complete recovery and began his descent into a steady decline - his CHF which began pretty passively really started to get a hold on him. Dads last 1 1/2 years were pretty awful for him physically although his mind was still good up until his final few weeks. I adored my father. While my childhood was pretty awful largely due to my mother - and my parents dysfunction relationship with each other - once I hit my 20's I was able to get past it in regards to my dad. My father was my best friend for the last 30 years of his life. We talked on the phone daily and were as close as any father/daughter can be. My father was always there for me - as well as my disabled son (who is named after his grandpa) he was there for my mother and my brothers too - although neither brother could get past our childhood and was never close to daddy. As far as I'm concerned this was my brothers loss and they never saw my dad for the amazing man he was. This hurt my father - he had tried for so long to make it up to my brothers - for the crappy childhood - and my heart broke for my dad. In the last month I prayed for God to take my father - i couldn't stand to see him suffering and I knew that it was what my father wanted - to end his suffering, to end being the weak helpless person he had become / he hated it. When my dad passed he was in a strange place and alone - it's a long story but in short my mother had him taken to a hospice center behind my back - on the one day in over two months that I couldn't go over to spend the day with him - I will never forgive her for this. My father vehemently did not want to go anywhere like that - he wanted to be at home and I had hired help for 18 hours a day and was in the process of making it 24 hours a day when mom had him moved. Mom did none of the care taking of dad. Okay - so my crisis of faith: why does it have to be like it is for so many of our loved ones as they age? It's painful both mentally and physically. They are robbed of their dignity, their independence, their minds, on and on in the most degrading ways possible. Where is Gods loving mercy? What is it we are meant to learn that has to be taught in the most heinous way possible? While I didn't really expect daddy to contact me from the other side I guess I did expect to feel his presence in some way - as close as we were. There is a thread going now - it's quite beautiful really - of story after story of long passed friends and relatives appearing to gently and lovingly help our loved ones "go home". Some even think Jesus himself is showing up. I'm not meaning to discount thoses stories - but could it be people are telling themselves this is what happens as a way of comforting themselves and their passing loved ones? This whole bit of being reunited - doesn't it make it easier on everyone to believe it's true? But what if when your dead - your just dead, gone? I just feel my dad is gone - forever gone. I've heard it said that faith is believing in something when there is no proof. I feel like I have lost faith. The whole "God works in mysterious ways. God has a plan" just doesn't do it for me any longer. What plan could possibly mean a good man - a man who took care of everyone in his life had to suffer in the most painful and degrading ways imaginable? I guess some of the Sunday school fire and brimstone lessons have stuck - I practically find myself looking over my shoulder for a lightening bolt as I write this. But beyond that?
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Are you speaking of my most recent post or all of the above?
Indeed! At 52 years old the only death I have ever known was the death of my parent's. Both died while I held them. Yes. Death is indeed an enemy and my faith is hanging by small withering threads.
Often I see elderly that appear to be not so nice and I wonder why God took the only people that I loved. Why did this happen? They were great people and not so great people continue to thrive.
About wars and sickness -- they are going to happen. Deer fight. Squirrels fight. Fish eat each other. Chimps will wipe out another group of chimps. Humans may hold up holy books and wage holy war, but it's really just trying to gain dominance. Sickness it pretty much the same. Everything gets sick and dies. Humans have found ways to make life longer, but at the same time have made sickness longer. This is quite understandable, since people generally died before they were 80 and now often live well into their 90s. Those last years often carry the burden of poor health. So they are a blessing on one hand and a curse on the other.
One thing I love to see is the effort of some philanthropists to ease suffering in the world. I like it best when they don't make the help contingent on believing in a certain religion. This kind of help is saying that it is there because the individuals are special and worthy, and not to promote an agenda. The world is a sad place at times. Sometimes people are killed or not helped because they're not the "right" religion.
I must add some comments about the word "proof" and then I'll be quite.
The phrase "scientifically proven" is a great marketing tool. However, science does not prove anything absolutely.
Why? There is always the possibility of finding new information. The new information may support a theory. The new information may contradict the theory.
For example, we might think that a certain medicine has been proven to work. However, over time, they may find that it has unexpected side effects that are worse than the benefits of the medicine. Another example from medicine is sometimes a medicine is found to help people with other problems than the one the medicine was initially made for. For example, Viagra was initially made for the heart, but then other uses were found which most people know it by today. Another medical example is Latuda which is an antipsychotic was recently approved for helping those suffering from bipolar depression like me.
Because new information might be found to support or contradict a medical product or something, a good scientist will say something along the lines of "the evidence supports the theory that ..." They will never say "my theory is proven."
We would like absolute certainty. However, we have to be content with how much confidence we have in the evidence. In other words, what is the probability this is true based on what we have found.
For example, some biblical scholars thought that there must have been two Isaiahs who wrote the book of Isaiah. When pushed to say why, their answer shows a prior assumption that Isaiah prophecy about what would happen to Israel could not have taken place. Their prior assumption, not any evidence is why they saw it this way. A prior assumption is also known as a presupposition.
Years later, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls showed that Isaiah was one whole book. This ancient copy of Isaiah led people to have more confidence that the original Isaiah was one whole book with one author.
People sometimes question how reliable is our current copy of the New Testament. Over the years more and more copies of the NT or parts of the NT have been found and darted. The result is that we have more evidence that supports, not proves how reliable our current copy of the NT is.
We have more copies of the NT or parts that are nearer to when they were written than other ancient writings. This does not prove anything. However, it does suggest a high probability or likelihood.
It is far too easy to skip observing, questioning, and interpreting the evidence for and against. When someone does that, they just jump right into their own self-selective conclusions with selective "proofs" or evidence. We see this when people use the Bible as a collection of proof texts for their own purpose.
Otherwise, one is left with easily believing something or easily not believing something without the hard work of thinking either through.
In order to test something, you have to step outside of it and formulate a hypothesis of some sort. We could do something very simple like hypothesize that god is responsible for an ant moving (or the null hypothesis that god is not responsible). We could show all the chemistry and mechanics that support that god is not needed for the ant to be moving. BUT we are inside the system and cannot say that god was not the master chemist and physicist that put it all together at the start.
Science and faith don't mix, so aren't considered together. Any scientist will simply say that "God isn't real" is not a testable hypothesis. Some scientists believe in god; others don't. Scientific "evidence" that there is no god is no more valid than religious "evidence" that there is.
I've learned from the bible stories that to believe in God and to have faith in him is not an easy road to travel (hence go thru the narrow road and not the wide road). You see in the examples of Noah, Lot and his wife, Jonah (who didn't want to preach God's words to those scary people and so he fled - and got swallowed by a fish - most likely a whale..) Paul and Jesus suffered. Hence, in my conclusion, I believe in God but I choose not to follow the narrow road. I will continue to plug on in life and when I die, Please Do NOT resurrect me! I don't want to go to heaven or earth or anywhere. When I die, leave me be.
In all my readings of the Bible, the only time God killed people - it was by mass killing - like the Flood, Lot's city which was filled with really bad sinners (even young boys tried to rape the angels who went in looking for people worthy of saving due to Lot's requests...) It's called Judgment. I'm a little sketchy on the stories because it's based on my memory of that time when I was deeply into the bible (in my mid-20's).
So, when my sister's boyfriend shot the gun and accidentally killed their baby who was going to 'drop' in her stomach to be born, I was very angry when the priest said in the funeral mass that it was God's Will that He took the baby.... God did Not take that baby. His father killed him. Not God. I'm 100% positive that my sister's baby will be resurrected when the allotted time arrives. When people say that my mom might be resurrected, inside, I cringe. I don't know. Because I don't know if God will think she's worthy of a 2nd chance despite the way she raised us kids. I don't know, I don't care...as long as I die, and I stay dead. This life sucked since I was in kindergarten (furthest memory of my deep fear of staying home from school. I'd rather be in school where I was bullied, than to stay home...) I have no desire to live forever, not even if it's in heaven. Just let it be done. Period.
Jessie, very realistic and compassionate assessment in your first post, and well balanced scientific vs. acceptance on faith analysis in your second post, although I do recall reading sometime ago about scientists who do accept that there is a god. And the null hypothesis? Wow! You're helping me remember things I'd forgotten about.
Years of Parochial School raised Catholic in Boston has put much doubt in my religous beliefs...
The other question, of why suffering is visited on good people to no clear purpose, is one for the ages. I remember stumbling over something along the lines of: "without your consent you are born and without your consent you live and without your consent you die" [so take what you're given and stop complaining, was the gist] - probably Chasidic, it usually is when it's that brusque.
Rainmom, like you I had a bit of a liquorice all-sorts religious education and took it terribly, terribly seriously when I was a wee tot. In fact the other day a "friend" emailed me a copy of a poem I wrote on the subject that got inexplicably published in the school magazine in 1975 - excruciating, I wish I could track down all copies and burn them immediately - but I digress. Did you not find, in your religious travels, that most if not all traditions have their central tenets in common? So that none of them has the answer, but then again in other ways they all do and you can't go far wrong whichever you follow?
To give an example of what I'm getting at, take mindfulness. Very useful habit to develop, lots of medical evidence of how good it is for calming down your brain hormones and helping you get your priorities straight. But as I was trawling the internet for a guide book to practical mindfulness (and tee-heeing over some of the extremely funny satires you bump into while you're at it), and rejecting them one after the other on the grounds of bad grammar or bonkersness or extortion, it occurred to me that the many, many hours I spent long ago sitting, standing or kneeling in a variety of religious settings - well, varied except for the extreme cold, that is - were in themselves devoted to exactly the same purpose. And since I am already familiar with C of E liturgy, I might as well stick to it. Unfortunately Sister Eleanor with her gleaming Goebbels glasses is no longer around to chivvy me down to the chapel so my new year's resolution is not going so well - I say resolution. More tinkering with an idea - that re-establishing a pattern to the week and including in it regular attendance at a service would do me good and concentrate my mind.
I don't think answers, or Answers, are what religion is for; and especially not Christianity, with the celebration of mystery at its heart. But look at all the goodies you do get! You get an ethical and philosophical framework. You get a perspective on the world and how you ought, as best you can, to deal with it. You get the condensed experience, and often wisdom, of countless preceding generations. If you're the clubbable type, you get a community to be part of. You get a 24/7 helpline - and even if you don't feel you get any feedback from prayer, prayer does at least help you organise your hopes and cares. I wouldn't throw out those babies with the bathwater.
I also wouldn't worry about getting struck by lightning. I work on the assumption that, as with the prodigal son, God would be delighted to welcome your faith; but quite honestly, if you're not ready, if you never will be ready, if you flatly refuse to countenance the existence of any such thing even, it's no skin off His nose (I don't expect he puts it quite like that). Certainly not to the extent of bothering to smite you, anyway.
I wonder if maybe what we lose when something terrible happens, or whole series of terrible things for that matter, is not so much faith as trust. We trust in a loving God who orders the universe, and when that universe seems to us to be going very badly and painfully we would like an explanation. But tough, we're not getting one.
So no, you don't get many "why?" answers, I agree. Just a thought: it's possible we wouldn't understand the answer even if we knew what it was.
"The cheese mites asked how the cheese got there,
And warmly debated the matter.
The orthodox said it came from the air
And the heretics said from the platter."
Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine......
(You can shoot me now, I am ready).
IM CUSSING HEAVEN AND PRAYING THERE AINT NO HELL
Always liked the expression...
I RATHER LAUGH WITH THE SINNERS THAN CRY WITH THE SAINTS
Then I wonder if the Muslims split off from the Jews at the time of Ibraham (Abraham), then is Allah the same god as Yaweh? I've asked this to some people, but it just makes them mad for some reason. So I leave it alone.
I believe strongly in God, but the Bible (and similar books) confuse me utterly.
To my knees will I fall
Sendme2help - Bang
Islam has the greatest respect for its Judaic and Christian forebears - Jesus is definitely up there in one of the levels of Heaven, can't recall which of the seven but he's a major figure - but insists that Mohammed, peace be upon him, was the final authority in terms of revelation. Except that Islam itself has since fractured over the status of disciples of Mohammed, quite vehemently, at which point I bow out because I get very lost over who's who and what the argument's about…
…and I just imagine God sitting there with his head in his hands and sighing 'oh for heaven's sake!'
People's talent for violent disagreement and horrible cruelty has nothing to do with God and everything to do with their desire for very earthly power.
The early schism you mention, by the way, was not just Ishmael splitting off from the Abrahamic community - he and his mother, Hagar, got kicked out into the desert once Sarah got given Isaac and didn't want them around any more. I have to say I thought they got a pretty raw deal - that bit of the bible doesn't even attempt to justify this startlingly callous treatment of them - but perhaps it might help to explain why it took a few millennia for the Arabic nations to be reconciled to the monotheistic model.