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Jude, as always, insightful and well written, especially the issue of genocides allegedly carried out in the name of religion. I would add to that list the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.

RainMom, have you ever read any of Nietzsche's writings, or Karl Marx, who in some ways viewed religion as a means to cope with oppressions of unjust societies (simply put - his philosophies were much more complex).

I think one can always ask oneself for what purpose you feel you should or must believe in a religion? Does it help you cope with life or does it impose a set of beliefs which you find challenging? Does it give you comfort or provide solace? What value if any does it add to your life? I would think those would be some questions to ponder when trying to decide whether or not to accept the basic principles of Christianity as well as the wide variety of differing principles of versions thereof.

No one is obligated to believe in a religion; fortunately humans have free will and can exercise it without being obligated to accept religion which in its various forms often has mandatory principles of belief.

Adherence to human made laws is mandatory, as is compliance with IRS regulations. That's more than enough mandated obligations for me.
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My own personal belief system, although I was brought up Catholic and converted to Judaism: there is an obdurate force/material in the cosmos over which even an all powerful being exerts limited force. Otherwise, the universe is a completely random place.
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I used to be a church going Christian I was in a Sunday school teacher (OK pass the smelling salts to this who know my views) I had a crisis of faith from which I have not returned when I was a teenager. I think if you have faith and whatever that faith is then that is wonderful...FOR YOU. If you don't have faith and I don't then I don't seek something I believe is not there FOR ME and I don't ask for anything from something I PERSONALLY no longer believe in.

I guess its a bit like Santa for me (Sorry and no offence intended) but I used to believe now I don't. Call me doubting Thomas if you will but that is the way I feel It is said God only gives us that which we can endure. Well Im sorry but that doesn't wash with me.

Why should people ENDURE why should my amazing father be put through the indignity of pain and a slow lingering death while other more vile people get the swift heart attack. Why should anyone have to endure the atrocities of holocaust or genocide or religious fatwahs or any other thing done in the name of religion. Why should innocents have to suffer the appalling atrocities that others foist upon them?

I do however believe that for those who do have faith then it is a wonderful support through difficult times and in times gone by and even today I can understand their reliance on it but it just isn't for me
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RainMom, you asked one of the critical questions, as to why just believing makes something real, and why it only works that way for religion. This will probably ignite a firestorm of protest, but I think it's that way because there is no scientific proof.

I can look at the beautiful cloud formation and think in terms of atmospheric conditions, heat, moisture, and whatever else might contribute to their stunning beauty. Someone else might say it's a god given creation - take it on faith.

Some people need proof (I'm one); others don't. Not everyone wants verification on a nonfaith based level that certain things exist. And I those people can be served by religion because it isn't scientific. But for those who need and want proof (and I fully support that position), there needs to be something more than what religion offers.

So many of Christianity's foundations are based on extraordinary circumstances that don't really exist other than in the world or religion. Is that revealing? I think so.
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It is helping to hear that others have also experienced a crisis of faith at times. And yes, it seems especially that during the dark days the questions regarding why and how come to bear. But in a way this feeds my personal crisis even more. It reminds me of a saying - that I can't completely recall right now but it goes something like: integrity isn't what you do to gain recognition - it's what you do when no one is looking. You know what I mean? It's easy to have faith when things are going well but when doubt creeps in when things are hard what does it say about your strength/level of commitment in the first place? Religion was a topic that my mom and I could talk about intelligently and without arguing, oddly enough. Mom credits me with jump-starting her own search. In the "big room" at our church towards the end of the service the congregation stood and read aloud from the printed program you were given when you entered. It was a prayer of confession of sort, followed with asking for more strength of dedication. It was "Dear God" then praise, then confession of all types of things, then asking to be better. One time I wasn't reading aloud. After church my mom asked why. I said "I didn't do thoses things, I'm not going to lie to God and say I did and then ask to be forgiven". Shortly after this I hit the age marker and didn't have to go anymore. Shortly after that my mom stopped going to our family church and began her own search. Years later she told me what I had said that day was a defining moment for her. Fast forward to a few days ago. I was visiting and noticed there was a picture of Mary on the cover of moms National Grographic. I said to mom that I never understood why people prayed to her. Sure - she was supposedly chosen by God and the mother of Jesus but other than giving birth she had no power. No water to wine, no parting of the sea...My mother replied that Mary had power because people believed she had power. My mom gave me something to think about - pretty good for a woman who thought she was talking to her sister who had died over 20 years ago! But there it was again - faith, belief. Does just believing something is real make it so? Of course not. But why does it work that way when it comes to religion?
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SherChell, I'm happy for you, I really am, but your response is exactly the kind I was talking about. "Seek and you will find, knock and it shall be opened unto you". It sort of implies we aren't looking hard enough, that somehow this lack of faith is our fault. How long must we seek, how long do we knock without an answer?
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I had a personal experience with God in 2014. That experience took away any doubt I had of His existence, heaven, and His love for me. God examines our heart. If you will sincerely seek Him through prayer and fasting and put your own intellect, emotions, and ambitions aside, I believe He will show you truth and give you the peace you need. My prayers are with you.
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Marialake I love your story too. I think everyone who experiences adversity has a crisis of faith. God never promised we would sail through life without experiencing sadness, loneliness, pain etc. He does promise us that he will give us his grace to withstand it.

When my mom was dying in the hospital I too had my moments of doubts. But my faith sustained my Mom all through her life and she had a very tough life. But she endured all with her faith and good spirit intact. Her example that she set for me was what helped me throughout my life. Who am I to question God and why the things that happen happen? His wisdom is infinite. He knows the end from the beginning. I know that I've learned more from the tough times in my life than the good times. Did I enjoy the tough times when they were happening? Not at all. But I can look back with confidence now and see why I had to go through them.

If what I have said sounds trite and naive to some of you, sorry. But I truly believe that there is a reason for everything that happens. Its our job to do good here on earth. God works through us.
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Maria, that is a moving story. Well told. Thank you.
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My husband and I were devoted Christians. I met him at a Jesus People Bible study in 1974. We met on Friday...........engaged on Tues............married in 6 weeks. We loved the Lord and had a great marriage and two great kids. We started our own business (garden center/landscaping) and lived the American dream.
At 47, Bill had a nasty heart attack, bypass surgery, pacemaker. He recovered and went right back to work. We were grateful.
Two years later, he got cancer. It was aggressive and merciless. We chased that cancer all over his body........chemo, surgeries, etc. His pain was horrific. The kids and I were helpless. His pain was agonizing and long. (BTW, Bill saw angels the day before he died etc but I wanted MORE. Doubts kept coming - "it was those pain meds......that's all it was. No angels.....just drugs")

When he died....................I went to a very dark place and my faith was ?? gone.
I had hoped that somehow Bill would let me know he was all right.
But all I got was deafening silence. Where was God?
Emotionally, I curled up into a ball and covered my eyes and stayed there. I doubted everything. It was dark. It was awful.
About 7 months into grieving, I remember thinking I should try to pray again. But I was afraid to do it. If I tried to find God again, and He wasn't there................then it would be true. Bill was gone forever and I would never see him again. So I stayed in the dark. Afraid to look.
Finally, months later, I dared to look for God. I peeked out of the darkness and tried to pray. I was sincere and I was ready. Started reading and listening to some Christian apologetics teachers. (Not the goofy ones - yikes). My faith came back.......hope came back..........a wonderful way of life came back. Living in the light and with hope brings peace to a troubled soul.
. Without it, I have nothing.
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I am so grateful to those of you who have experienced adversity and yet somehow managed to rise above it and share your wisdom with others on this site.
You inspire me to carry on.
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Rainmom, while I was taking care of my demented husband, I had this conversation with a well-meaning person,
"God never gives you more than you can handle."
"Poor Coy! Too bad he married me."
"Oh, no! It was perfect that he married you. You are so strong and compassionate."
"Yes, but if he'd married someone who couldn't handle his care, God wouldn't have given him dementia. He wouldn't give her something she couldn't handle, right?"

That particular saying drives me nuts!
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Crisis of faith......Very good disscussion. I am not the least bit religious these days but was raised in a strict fundamentalist church. As a child I could never figure out why if God created us and loved us so much why would God let all sorts of horrible things happen to very nice people. And I was told that it was Gods will, he's testing our faith, it was all preordained and all the rest.

Life can be an ordeal. My family history is about as tragic as it gets. I understand the need to believe there's some reward beyond this life and I in no way disrespect these beliefs. I just ask that people respect my right not to believe. I'm not arrogant about this. I'm not an intellectual or educated person. I could be dead wrong. Imagine my surprise if I wake up some bright day in heaven, or hell, (more likely) and there's my town drunk uncles and all the rest of the gang!

Rain moms post is heartfelt and thoughtful as are the responces in the thread. It's a good discussion to have.
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cwillie - the references of "God has a plan" etc are not my own but rather the standard replies I get when I ask questions like those in my original post. My all time favorite is "God only gives you what you can handle". To which my standard replies is "well then, he has certainly over-estimated me"! Like you this "faith" is something I wish I could feel.
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You say you've studied religion, but aren't you just using as an example the feel good platitudes that Hollywood and the unschooled like to trot out? I don't recall the bible saying god has a plan for our lives, I know that god doesn't intervene when we face adversity (reference Job and Paul's "thorn"), and I also know we are often tested beyond our physical and mental endurance. God had a plan for Adam and Eve, but that got tossed out the window with the first sin, now we have free will. If you are christian the only plan is to have a better future in heaven, life on this earth has no guarantee.
Seeking counselling from a pastor gets you banal platitudes and bible references that boil down to the "how can you not believe, just look at the wonders of the world around you" kind of thinking. I was taught that faith is a gift of the holy spirit, so I spent many years praying for the gift of faith. I went to church hoping I might catch it through osmosis and I still receive communion in the faint hope that it may bestow a miraculous transformation. A good friend has urged me to explore other kinds of spirituality as she has found her faith outside of organized religion. Bottom line is that I don't feel it, anywhere, but I wish I could.
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I think you've asked some very legitimate questions, some which are perhaps the foundation for others deciding that religion does not offer the hope and relief they expected.

If you have some time, read history textbooks from pre-history, especially focusing on civilizations and how they viewed religion, or spiritual beliefs. But the texts should be on development of civilizations as well as development of the higher functions, such as the analysis of nature, weather, mathematical and scientific theories.

Compare the Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions, the latter 2 with their very humanlike gods with personality disorders and personal idiosyncracies (more like we humans). Consider the Egyptian and other earlier civilization's gods - the various functions which they were believed to control and how the people of those eras believed the gods controlled life, harvests, weather and other aspects of life for them.

The Roman (alleged) empire is especially important because of the anti-humanistic approach toward the populace, especially those of conquered countries. Juxtapose that to the preachings of Jesus Christ, and compare how a more humanistic belief developed. This I think is one of the most critical periods for the development of a philosophy that provided an alternate to the brutality of the Roman "empire".

When you view a lot of these issues from a historical perspective, it's easier to see that early peoples who knew nothing of science needed explanations for weather events, for sickness and death, for crop failures. Their system of gods explained this, including the vindictiveness of some of the gods. Their belief in these gods provided explanations that in their primitive minds made sense. Today, fortunately, we don't believe that sacrifice is necessary for a good harvest or for benevolent treatment by the "gods".

I suggest this historical study b/c it allows a person to step outside of his or her own religious background and put the issue of belief in all powerful beings in more perspective.

I assume some will probably attack these next comments, but so be it. I've always felt that we humans have until the development of scientific and mathematical explanations felt as if we were at the mercy of the elements, of nature, and often of unstable dictators or rulers (and many still are). That's a very scary thought; just reading about the overflow of the Mississippi now scares me as I see houses and roads being washed away. Nor can I imagine living in Syria or any other county with raging political and personal violence.

What person wouldn't want protection from these vagaries of life? We in advanced or post industrial countries have technological protection, up to a point. But we can't stop tornadoes, hurricanes or blizzards. The thought of being at the mercy of these violent outbursts is frightening.

Some people provide for survival by stockpiling, building bunkers. Some people move to safer areas. Some people believe in a higher power. I think it's only natural to hope that there's something to protect us.

Then there's the reality, as you mentioned it, as well as the devastation caused by natural disasters or the pain of illness.

There's somewhat of a corollary to be seen in the development of civilization and a law enforcement venue. The Catholic Church played a role during times well before development of a formal police force, in creating a system of acceptable behaviors and social mores. Medieval life and development of the feudal system began to affect that role. Now we have laws, made by men and women, to govern behavior. The bad Sheriff of Nottingham no longer reigns terror over innocent civilians.

So, in today's society, where does religion fit in? Can it explain the questions you asked, to your satisfaction? If not, can anything, and I think that's where science and medical theory come into play.

As I read some of the posts here, in AARP bulletins and in news media, it's clear that facing the vagaries of 21st century life is still very uncertain, and some people rely on religion for answers. Others don't; some rely on themselves. It's difficult to accept though that we are essentially left to our own devices to protect ourselves from literally anything. For those people living in poor areas, with little chance of advancing past basic subsistence, what hope is there? Perhaps that's where their religious beliefs give them hope to belief that there's a better life after death. They certainly don't have it here.

I think the questions you pose are valid, thoughtful, insightful, and certainly worthy of analysis. I don't think there are any answers, though. I do believe each person has to decide for her or himself how much to rely on herself or himself, or whether to place faith in a deity that, as you wrote, has "mysterious ways", his/her (and I won't concede that any deity can only be male) own plans, etc.

Nor do I feel that anyone who feels as if she or he has "lost the faith" should be subject to criticism. Believe in deities or a god(s) isn't mandatory. The choice to believe in a religion is highly individual, and for many, there is no "proof".
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Oh I too was there at one time. By the time I lost belief, I felt the bible pounders were nuts and manipulative in their own way.
Yet, I wanted to believe. Such a nice story line! You could pretty much be a bastard 6 days out of 7, but forgiven and " blessed" on the 7th. Give me a break! Yet, I wanted to believe that I was loved so much that "someone" was willing to give their life so that I could know and be one with creation and the creator of all. It broke my heart not to know. But there was no proof-- for me. And then there was☺️! That is the clue, your life, faith and love (and trials) are yours.
My mother could never love me. Her dementia made all much worse. I disassociated my emotions from what was happening. I hired help, kept her home and kept her out of pain with hospice help. Now my husband is showing early signs. Oh my, this is a hard "ride" sometimes. Try to find joy, and love. A big gentile dog helps at night 🐾
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freqflyer, my dad had the same kind of experience when my mother deserted him. The priest would not meet with him unless my mom also came. How cold!

I've had some painful experiences with churches myself, but have still held to my faith. I just keep remembering that not everything in the cookie jar is a cookie.
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From my perspective, I hear three major questions emerging from this post.

1. Is their life after death, and if there is, how can we know there is?

2. Why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?

3. If God does not have a specific plan for one's life, then how does one find purpose, meaning and direction in life?

I think you need to find a pastor who can help you with these questions.

Also, your asking questions is not going to get you struck by lightening.
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Rainmon, glad you wrote this as I feel the same way. Why would God allow our elders to suffer like this, and in turn the rest of the family is suffering right along.

I wanted to remember my Mom as that alert smart women, not someone who didn't know who she was and was in a coma state half the time. I am still trying to get those last day images out of my mind.

I believe in the reuniting, even though my analytical mind will try to reverse that way of thinking. I believe the "reuniting" makes it easier for us to believe that the person that died is now back with their loved ones who had passed prior.

We all were raised under different aspects of faith. I was Catholic but once my ex and I were divorced I was pretty much no longer welcomed by the church.... why go where I am not welcomed. I've been looking for something else, I want to leave a Mass/Service smiling, not feeling like I had been sinner :P
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