My mom has been a miserable, nasty, and hateful person all her life. As a mother she has dominated every aspect of her children's life.

Just say no. If she gets mad and starts saying things like you WILL do it or that you owe her, come right back on her. Just say no until she either hears it or you block her phone number. I have a feeling that living with her would be so much worse than talking to her on the phone. And you know how bad that can be.

Unfortunately for her it's all about money. I really don't think she wants to live with me either. But she wants to quit her job(which she chose to get on her own mind you) and mooch off me.

elmo, no matter what, don't do it. Just say no. I can already tell from what you wrote that she will take control and bully you. Ask her if she lived with her mother when she was your age. I think anyone could understand you when you say, "I don't want to live with my mother." I don't think many people do. (And I also think that most mothers don't want to live their adult children, especially if they can still do things on their own.)

Mom STILL harassing me to move in with her. She wants me to move to Arizona. She doesn't get that I am 41 year old woman and I don't WANT to live with my mommy. If she were not a hypocritcal person and someone who constantly attacks me when I do or say something she doesn't like? I might think about it. I get that she can't make me move to Arizona But she said "Well then I will just have to move to Washington and we will live together there"! She keeps saying "This is GOING to happen". I can't take it anymore! I don't know what else to do. The last thing I want to do is live with my mother again. She kicked me out of the house when dad died and told me to go live on my own. I have lived on my own for 14 years and I love it. And now she wants me to go backwards? Yeah no. She says "We could get a big enough house that you could have your own space" but that is NOT the point!

Thanks for your comment, this is not an emotionally healthy family - there is a lot of dysfunction, huge egos and the situation is just too complicated. Many lies, no one trusting the other person, broken promises, accusations being made, mom wants to be the head of every decision being made. When we were looking at assisted living places, mom was the only parent in the room, everyone was there for thier parent. Mom thought that they were the residents looking for places. She said "they are way to young to be here".. we had to break it to her that they are the children of the parents. I wanted to ask about a bariatric room, how do you do that in front of your mother, who doesnt believe she is over weight?

AdultChild - The person with the durable power of attorney or court-appointed guardianship is the decision maker. Others just have opinions. I think you're going to have to hold a family meeting to talk about how this kind of thing is undermining even if it's well meant.

So glad I'm an only child! There are a lot of boards & threads here devoted to the struggles of managing a parent with a herd of family & silblings who don't agree.

The out of town sibling might feel helpless and unable to really feel like she's helping, so "Suggesting" is her way to pitch in, even if it is NOT helpful. Can you give her some things to do that are helpful? I don't have siblings, but at work when I get those "super-helpful people" off on the sidelines mouthing off about how things ought to be and we should have done XYZ a different way, etc, I find them work to do. They get tasks and deadlines from my project. It typically shuts them up and I don't hear from them again. Especially anything I can find directly connected to what they were "suggesting" about.

I will call or meet with them specifically about the thing that's bothering them, pointedly ask them what they would do differently and how, brainstorm through the obstacles (which is a nice tricky way of telling them how it's not as simple as they think), and then lay the work on them. "It would really help out if you can manage this part. Our deadlines are this, that, & the other. Will you be able to get that done on time?" It's usually this point they totally back out.

VeryTired58, out of town sister is visiting my mom now. We are enjoying a time of no drama. My mom refuses to call me when she needs something, and expects me to call her every day to see how she is doing. I am not going to call her, and have her blast me for what ever reason suits her. She is losing control in her life, physically and now mentally... being angry is the only thing left for her.

AdultChild, my mom accused me of steeling countless times… Later, when she finds "stolen" item under the bed, or in one of the drawers, she would never apologize and turn it into a joke.. Just like in your case, she would ask for my advise or ask me to call some social worker with the question… But then, she would say that some random person that she met once, outside her building, ave her different advise… It ised to hurt…not anymore. I am used to it :(

I have read many of these replies, and feel connected to all of them. My mother knows how to 1 daughter against the other... Myself and sister have been caring for mom for about 4 years. She still lives in her home, and we would drive her to doc appmts, get groceries etc etc. Mom has severe arthritis and her mobility is very limited, even with a walker. Now... the other sister lives out of town and phones mom every day. She is the one who "suggests" what mom should do, financially etc etc... I would make a decision with mom, then mom would second guess it, call out of town sister... and then half way through the thing would change. My husband would do her income taxes, mom would call sister and she would question how he did it, then mom would doubt his capability. The funny thing is my sister is not a professional of any kind, but seems to convince mom that she is some expert on everything. Mom was in the hospital of UTI and had a cognitive assessment done. The team thought it would be helpful for her to move into assisted living. Sister from out of town did a "I am on the same page as you" - then did an immediate switch against us, and sided with mom to stay in her home. The thing is she is in financial need, and is counting on mom's estate...When mom was in hospital, I went into her home to get toiletries, pj's etc... when she came home, she accused me of stealing.. then called the police, and changed the locks. When I go to her place, I have told her I do not feel comfortable being inside her home, and will take her to appmts and groceries... but will not spend anytime inside. I asked that she revoke the police report.. but she is determined that my sister and I have stolen "things". Sister from outside keeps playing in mom's anxiety about this to keep the fuel going. This happened in Sept. and she still accuses us of it as though it was yesterday. I am at my wits end, for all I care out of town sister can go for it, take it all ... I only hope there is karma. I can not believe that I spent so many nights at moms, so she would not be lonely leaving my husband at home. I would shop for her new wardrobe during hospital stays... I see I did too much. My friends all warned me, but I just couldnt see her for what she was and is... Narcisstic, yes and very mean spirited as well. Out of town sister the same.

you are so right... all of you. Somehow, what all of you are telling me and I am afraid even think about, makes so much sense. You, my newly found friends, make one big, gigantic sense... Wish I have met you all before. Maybe I would't end up in emergency room with panic attack or go through multitude big and small incidents for the last 40 years...Thank you all, so very much. I have some serious thinking to do...🎭

I may have said this already, but even so, it bears saying again. You didn't make her that way. You can't control her. You can't fix her. However, you can destroy yourself trying to fix her and or control her. The only one any of us can control and fix is ourselves and even that is a battle at times. The above advice is on target. Good luck!

Sometimes you have to let Humpty Dumpty fall off the wall. This meant I had to let embarrassing go to bad to worse to dangerous with my mom. No amount of guilt, being beat up by my conscience, judgement from other family, or good intentions by any of us made one iota of difference.

If you are dealing with a rational, sane person with their faculties, and you walked away from them, you may have a reason to feel some guilt or remorse.

Dealing with someone who is not in their right mind is a whole different ballgame. Whether it's addiction, mental illness, dementia, whatever. You can only do what you can and past that point you must let it go. Nobody is wonder woman or super man in these situations with magic solutions for Disney endings.

You can drive yourself insane too by dwelling on "If mom would just..." or "If I only...". If everything was perfect and mom was cooperative then there wouldn't be two million people on this website.

At some point you have to step back and have the clarity to realize that you have literally done all you can. You don't have to have any more plans or solutions. It is out of your hands. Give it up. Get into therapy, be nice to yourself, and get used to the new feelings you will have at this point. It won't be euphoria. It won't be relief. It will be weird but it does get better.

Shouldn't you tell *somebody* that you're done? Sure, if there is anybody to tell. Telling a social worker or APS may or may not mean squat. Our cultivated sense of responsibility to this parent means we think we need to do a clean handoff to somebody, somewhere. This may be a mistaken thought. It may not be possible. You may very well need to stop answering the phone, turn around, and walk away until you can find your own wellness and create a safe zone for your self.

What if Mom's lying there on the floor bleeding out her eyes? It might happen. I fit my mom with a lifealert button she never used once in all the times she fell. My mom was passively suicidal in the first place, so she had been trying to die for decades anyway. Maybe your loved one could use a fall response service.

The super unfair part of this is having to come to terms with the possibility of sad outcomes and our powerlessness to stop it. Dealing with the powerlessness and having absolutely zero control over a situation you think you should control is very, very difficult. Therapy can make a WORLD of difference in how you perceive things, respond to them, and accept your right to a life and your own happiness.

Guilt is the worst. If we don't find a way to conquer it we end up tolerating all kinds of abuse. I know because it's something I struggle with no end. It's my worst enemy. Guilt distorts my ability to reason and make good decisions. It robs me of my serenity and even my sanity sometimes. It's that voice in my head that tells me I am a bad person because I don't want to make it my job to try and make a miserable person into a happy person. Or I don't live up to someone else's standards. But I am not a bad person and neither are you VeryTired. If you can't overcome the guilt on your own get help. In the end all of your efforts will destroy you and they won't do one blessed thing to help your Mom.

Unfortunately, a mentally ill person who is over 18 cannot be forced to take their meds or go to therapy unless they are considered incompetent as an adult of whatever age.Your mother would have to end up being institutionalized in a mental hospital to be forced to take her meds. It sounds like there's really nothing more your can do for her and the only thing that's left is taking care of yourself in getting help to deal with all of the abuse you have been through. If you were married to someone abusive like your mother, would you put up with that?

You can chose to get off the merry go round. It's not conscience that keeps you, it's guilt.

Surprise, been there, tried this... she went from psych facility to adult home, becouse she refused to go back to my home, as we could not do this and she refused as well,,. this adult home was a horrible place and after one year i found an apartment for her because she is flatly refused to gi to nursing home and for assistance living it is too late... she is 82 and they dont want her so frail there... so after drilling a hole in my head that she wans to be alone, she got her wish. i should of break the contact right there, but there is thus pesky thing, colled conscience and i am doing the same thing over and over.. tolerating her abuses. but if they take her back to facility again i want them make her to take medication, but they would not do that and you can predict what would happen next. it is a h*ll circle...

There is something called involuntary commitment which is used when a person is in imminent danger of inflicting harm on himself or others. This can be used when the person is threatening to kill you/others or themselves for a temporary 72 hour hold. I am guessing that is what happened to your mom before- is that right, Tired? My DIL's college roommate had that put on her once, and it was the best thing that ever happened to her.

Simply put, you do not have mom live with you, you do *not* go with her to the Doctors/ hospital, and you **refuse** to pick her up or sign for her on discharge from the hospital (hopefully for 72 hour hold/Baker Act/5150,different names in different places), I expect the hospital would find a more appropriate placement than her home. In other words, when you were in contact as the worried daughter, the hospital was sure that mom would be taken care of. If you are not there, she will have to suffer the consequences herself. Not you.

The roommate was given the option to sign herself out of the MH facility, but the college told her if she did, she would be involuntarily removed from school. They urged her to voluntarily submit to treatment, and if she did, they would consider allowing her back on campus. The school held power you don't. It may be that no one holds power over your mom, and she may need to be "alone in the world" to be able for her children to gain that power. Another reason to leave her alone for awhile.

My suggestion is to get in therapy and go no contact while you build yourself back up. If she calls you and threatens to kill herself/others call 911 and report that suicide/murder threat at once. Don't wait. Make the call. And walk away. Take care of yourself first or you will drown trying to rescue the man in the water who will pull you under.

Yes, it is unbelievable, how similar our stories are… I still can not comprehend that so many people would have the same expiriences with their sick mothers….
All of your stories, to a small degree, could of been written by me, exactly word for word… How's this possible. I guess I was right all alone when I tried to proove to multitude of strangers that mom is ill, very ill… No one beleived me… But now, when I see so many similarities, it means all our mothers share the same type of illness…

But, My question is, what can be done about it, if the sick refuses treatment…
If you read my first post, I mentioned that my mom was taken from our home to the psych facility.
I was so hopeful that they fix her, I was so, so hopeful… How naive of me… Noone bothered to talk to her much… Don't want to take your meds, dear? Oh that's OK… Cry your heart out, be miserable… As long as we, the doctors, don't trample your rights…

I came to America from Eastern Europe 35 years ago, withmom and dad.. I thought that I knew everything about laws of the land, and I probably do know 99 percent… But not, apparently when it comes to elderly mental care…One doctor, told me outright that until my mother forgets her name and what day it is, there is nothing they can do and she can not be forced to take anything..
How illogical it is, really… Forget about me , that my life is basically done and over. What about her?! I feel so bad to see her suffering from her own demons, crying nights and screaming days… Why there is no solution?! Why can't she be forced?! When we have sore throat, we take meds, right? to fill better? What about "sore" brain? Something wrong, so wrong… with this...

I will cmagnum. I feel bad because she is working at a local non profit clinic and it's all about the paperwork there. I get the feeling she is overworked and under appreciated. To be completely fair I have gotten one good thing during my time with her. When I told her I wanted to transition my job to something less stressful and demanding she gave me the names of two very helpful contacts which have opened doors for me. I am very grateful to her for that but still we never seem to get beneath the surface of things. You are right, I am in therapy for a reason and it's not working with her. I will start looking for someone else.

Tryingmybest, thanks.

It would bother me to have such a passive therapist with checklists of questionnaires, a poor memory and not talking at much depth. That sounds like basic supportive therapy but not someone who is doing cognitive behavioral therapy which goes much deeper.

I'd let her know that you want to go deeper and for her to remember your stuff better. If she's not up to that, I'd either ask for a referral to someone who goes deeper with a better memory or go search for one. Being nice is not enough in my book for a therapist to be a good therapist.

Since 2002, I've had 4 therapists and the current one since 2005. The first one, was good and gave me a lot of handouts to read, and she helped me greatly with learning some baby steps about boundaries. However, she had to leave the therapy group she was part of. The next one was great in helping me build some structure into my life (I'm on disability and no longer work), but she ended up having to leave the same therapy group because of her elderly parents. After that was a lady who I could tell lacked confidence in herself. Since 2005, I've met with a male therapist who has helped me greatly in the ares of dealing with my own issues about my mother. Find the therapist you need!

VeryTired- Your story rings so familiar, just like so many others here. I hope you find this place to be as much a life saver as I do.

Surprise,sandwich and cmagnum I just read your posts to VeryTired. I really needed to read those things. Especially finding a therapist who you feel supported by. I like my therapist as a person but she is very passive in therapy. She tracks my progress with check list questionnaires that she has me answer every few weeks but she doesn't seem to remember a lot of what I have told her. We almost never talk about anything deeper than what has happened in our lives since our last session. It's a lot like chatting with a good acquaintance. I don't ever recall her asking how something made me feel. I think it's a style thing and I need someone who is more like you say sandwich.

VeryTired58, the stories of adult children of narcissistic or borderline mothers have a lot of similarities to the degree that you could almost just change the names and the story reads very much the same.

I showed the book Understanding the Borderline Mother to someone once and their response after reading part of it was who had written such an accurate description of their mother and their life.

Please do get therapy for yourself to improve your self-esteem, to set needed boundaries to stop walking on eggshells and to learn to really love yourself.

Know that you did not make your mom the way she is. Nor can you control her or fix her. All you can really do is put yourself on a healthier path and not let her drag you down into her hell. There is only one person who can stop the dance with the emotional abuser/blackmailer and that is the person who agrees to participate in the dance which the parent makes so challenging to do with their Fear, Obligation and Guilt trips.

However, with the help of a therapist, you can stop dancing. One important part of the dance to let go of is any idea that if you just love and sacrifice enough, then somehow they will be the parent that they never were. Not going to happen.

Go to a therapist and leave the F.O.G. that people on this site are shedding light upon so that you can see your way out. Take care of yourself and keeping coming back to let us know of your progress!

To this day, I fight urges to do things to make mom happy or to amuse her. I thought it might be sweet to take her a stuffed animal like she keeps seeing. My husband looked at me like I was crazy and said "Why on EARTH would you do that?" Because the Other Mother in my head would just love that. The Real Mother would not even notice or care.

Go to therapy. Tell them you are a child of a narcissist. If you don't get instruction in validating your self worth, instruction in protecting your psyche, and a heaping helping of kindness and understanding it's not the right therapist.

My mother showtimed her way through countless doctor visits for her entire life These poor schmucks with their professional credentials and salaries have NO IDEA how snowed they really are by these mentally ill people.

It was when I got mom into a different state where the culture really is different that things changed. There is Nordic stoicism, not Southern pandering and flirting and diminishing symptoms. Mom could NOT put on her act and have it work, which totally infuriated her and brought the palace down faster.
She was not a sweet little piece of pie any more that could wheedle and cover up and excuse everything that was a flaming red flag.

I actually have gotten calls from mom's sisters and doctors blaming ME for her condition. It's all because I moved out of state. It's all because I'm not right there in her living room at her knee, forsaking my own family and job to wait on her. I asked one doctor if HE was doing that for HIS mother. The unmitigated nerve of these yay-hoos. They do more damage than they can know.

Once we got mom into treatment and I met with the kindest, sharpest social worker who explained to me what borderline personality disorder was, did I feel like *not* the bad crazy one.

She had been gaslighting me all this time, twisting things so that she looked good and I looked like the problem. JUSTICE - finally! In came the geriatric psych, the psych nurse, the anti-psychotic meds, the new more controlled environment, and my Lord the sun came out for me for the first time. I felt like I could breathe air suddenly. I think I went around giggling to myself for a couple weeks. (No...that looks totally sane!)

Getting her dementia AND mental illness under control has set me free in many ways not possible otherwise. I wrote the family and told them everything, whether they wanted to hear it or not. Tough tooties. I have heard from 3 family and 1 friend of hers from the old neighborhood out of about 25 or so letters I sent to update on mom's condition.

I went through a stage where I felt guilty for feeling good. This passes. It felt wrong to be happy. I felt like there was always some other shoe to drop based on past experience. This just means you have more work to do and it will pass.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. I promise. You can get through the dark valley. The people on this board are waving flashlights at you to come across and claim your life.

Very Tired, YES our mthrs must be your mom's sisters! Mine played those games on me all the time!

I did not mean for you to take your mom to therapy. It's not FOR the crazy one, it's to defend yourself FROM the crazy one. YOU are the one who needs it to learn the strategies for defending yourself from her evil snares. It's like taking karate to learn how to fight off muggers, except you know you are going to use therapy lessons later in the day. I went out of my 1st session with a whole new out look on life. Don't tell mom you go, either, because she will look up how to work against your new defenses.

My mthr was evil to me. Pure evil. I don't know what your mom did to you, but I know what mine did to me. What really bugs me is that the sweet nurses at the memory care home tell me things like, "she's feisty, but I love yor sweet mama to death!" I just want to scream, no you would not if you knew the real her!

Why do we go back? Because our mthrs trained us to. They gave us scraps of love and made us beg for more. They made us this way for their pleasure, like teasing a poor puppy. Therapy gave me the power to say no and to let her be herself without it affecting me at all.

I did have to go no contact for a few months to start with, and later it was longer. (On this board you will see a lot of people have had to go no contact - there are a lot of mentally ill parents whose children need help dealing with them.) When Adult Protective Services tracked me down and asked me to help, I was glad to put her in a memory care where other people would take care of her and keep her/people who were near her safe. (Actually, it had to be my husband to pick her up and drive her because I thought she would shoot me, but, same difference).

Sorry for the typos… I was rushing…

How is that so many of you, know my mom? How is that so many of you know my life, and what I am going through? I honestly thought that no one in the entire world would be able to truly understand…
I am so very tired to ear the same thing from all the nurses and doctors and social workers how sweet andsmart mo mom is, how interesting her stories are. Oh , my mother, the actress, the great manipulator… She knows how to play the game… And I, with all my horror stories and plea for help, look like an evil daughter… I always hope, that the people in a position to help her will talk to her and convince her to start taking antidepressant or anything, that would help her… But they look at me with disdain, how dare I say all those things…
Then, when those people leave, my mom would sort of shrink and transform ito sad shadow of the old cheerful lady of 30 minutes ago… Her eyes become glassy, she starts complaining over the phone and within next 10 minutes thunger and lightening descend on my head… Sometimes, my husband say, that she is not sick and she is just pretend that she does not remember what she says, but I know my mom, she is absolutely ill and my dream is that she would take something and I will get my mom that I remember from my early childhood.. Beautiful smiling brilliant woman… Or maybe I want to remember her like that. I do not know anymore… Those days are long gone… She demends thousand things a day, she always needs something, anything , that would make me drop everything and go and bring it to her…
And, I noticed the most amasing thing… Whenever I tell her that I will not be able to come on Saturday, that we My husband and I will go and visit friends, 90% of the time, I will get a phone call from her, that she has favor, or horrible blood pressure or sore throat, that was not there in the morning… She would barely speak, whispering, that if she will not answer my call, do not get scared, she might go to the hospital…
So, being awful daughter, I am, and having a guilt trip, I would say good bye and I am so sorry and drive to her, only to find her watching TV and absolutely fine… And that happens every time… :( Oh, she knows how to make me squil…
Funny, right…? And I still love her. Why? What is there to love? She torchures me, hates me, makes me sick, literally and figuratively, and… I am still attached with those unbreakable ties, that called blood ties… Go figure...

Well my mother has claimed her next victim. My sister, the Golden Child, her husband has walked out on her and their two children citing 'your bloody mother' as the main reason. She really is the gift that keeps on giving. Sigh.

Big hugs to you all. I wish I had some wise words to add, but I'm new to this and others have said it more eloquently than I could.

Amen sandwich.

mamaj - taking someone to a therapist is not advisable. Going yourself without her knowledge, as sandwich suggests, is the best way IMO. Sandwich is quite correct that treating personality disorders has very limited success and requires long term meds and the willingness of the individual to admit they have a problem and want to get better. Very few fit that model. In therapy, you can learn how to protect yourself, how to set and maintain boundaries, how to detach from the emotional blackmail and other manipulation, the FOG - fear, obligation and guilt that has been planted in you. In short, it is highly unlikely that she will change, but you can - to your benefit.

BOUNDARIES.
I had to be in my 40s to really find them.

MamaJ - Keep in mind that the only person you can control in these situations is yourself. You may very well accomplish nothing by taking mom to therapy. Therapy can only help the person who wants to and is able to change. Therapy does not help people incapable of being objective, empathetic, introspective or comprehending the problem. E.g. dementia patients.

But you can accomplish a great deal by going on your own. You don't even need to tell mom about it. I recommend not telling her so she can't use it against you.

People with Cluster B personality disorders (narcissism, hystrionic, and borderline) are not helped with your vanilla family therapist. It has to be done over their entire lives almost with a very experienced therapist who specializes in Cluster B disorders. It has a high failure rate and they burn out therapists quite quickly. The outlook is not bright for those folks. Anti-psychotics and anti-depressants can help some, if they will take them.

One thing I had to do was go low to no contact for a long time. It was a matter of my survival. Heck no she didn't like it and she badmouthed me every chance she got, but what do I care? The family who really love me could see beyond this b.s. and they stayed in touch. The other family...well, it's their loss.

Mom's decline into a serious state of danger started to really concern me, and her ambivalence about it shocked me. I made a call to APS in her county and got utterly nowhere. They did a home visit and found absolutely nothing to escalate. Nope, not all the rotten food in the fridge. Not the unchanged litter boxes. Not the swamp of unwashed dishes and unwashed clothes. Not the stinking hoarder mess. Not the 85 pill bottles scattered around all over. Nope, nothing there they said, and went on their merry way. It was a small rural county, so I believe you have to be face down in your own excrement before they will recognize a problem. Maybe not even then. A new finding is a new case whish is more work they probably aren't staffed to handle.

My mom was sweet as pie in public and mean as a snake at home. Her affection was transactional or from obligation. I mean, she had to feed & clothe me. She had untreated mental illness and it's sad that all those decades of suffering and hardship on all our parts had to happen.

As I grew and started to differentiate myself from her she really started having a hard time. She was not equipped to deal. When my dad died, she went off the edge. She should have been in-patient, but they just prescribed more valium and buspar back then. When menopause hit, she went ever farther off the deep end so much so that any friend I might accidentally bring home with me would say how crazy my mom is. No boy ever came over twice, I can tell you that. She did some stuff that was just plain old messed up in an attempt to control me, isolate me, and strip me of any sense of self worth I might have had going as an introverted teenager.

But I went away, got educated, got married, and lived as far away as possible until it was crystal clear she was in a life endangering situation. I did what I never ever thought I would. I moved her to be near me. Many, many times I asked myself what have I done? Or more accurately, WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!!!

It was very difficult to do. If my husband hadn't been there through it, I would not have done it. It took a lot of extra therapy on my part to get through it. It took a lot of people on this site encouraging me, reassuring me, and sending me hugs on a daily basis to get me through it.

I did what I could to preserve her safety. Sometimes even now, I wonder if it was worth it, or if I should have let nature take its course. Who can know what was the better choice? Her life is not a life I would choose to have. Sitting alone at the very back of the memory care unit, as far from people and activities as possible because she hates everything. Any kind of commotion agitates her. Pumped up on 5 different bloodpressure meds and antipsychotics and anti dpressants, completely incontinent. I honestly cannot tell you if this is better than just letting the inevitable happen where she was.