Driving: Moral dilemma.

I think I would definitely start talking to the highway patrol and other law-enforcement and tell them exactly what you know. See how they can guide you in this despite him passing his test. They're not with him all the time, and it seems like these episodes come and go. I'm not sure how much leverage you're going to have since he's passed his test, I just don't know in a case like that. What I would do is take his wife with you if possible when you start talking to lawn force meant about what's going on. Another thing you can consider is getting a written statement from her in her own words and turn it in to law enforcement. It may turn out that they may start watching him very close and if they say anything, they'll pull him over. Meanwhile, have you thought of getting a hold of the keys and hiding them somewhere? I definitely wouldn't vandalized his car to disable it because you could get in trouble for vehicle vandalism. This is why I suggested something as simple as hiding the keys somewhere, or at very least remove the ignition key when he's not around and he lays down his keys somewhere like on the table. If you know where his keys are, remove the ignition key at very least. If he's out in the middle of a parking lot, see if you and some of your other driving buddies can block him in and just don't move to let him out. You can plan on law enforcement coming to the scene if you happen to catch something on video that needs attention. You can catch video on something such as a – cam

You're in a very difficult situation. What does your husband say about it? Can he talk to his father and perhaps persuade him to give up driving? Years ago our neighbor, who lived alone, had reached the point where he should give up driving, but refused. His adult kids disabled his car and left it park under the tree he'd run into in his front yard. If that isn't an option, maybe you could tell your FIL that you have several personal errands to run while on the out of town trip to get their meds and groceries and would prefer to use your own car. Good luck.

My FIL's still got it too much together for "losing" the keys or hiding/tampering with the car to work. Moreover, my MIL needs the car, and is still capable of driving. When she feels less than confident (e.g., night, rain, freeway), she does ask me to drive.

My husband agrees with me completely, but cannot handle the situation directly due to post-stroke issues of his own. (Especially unfortunate since my husband cannot drive, either, so he'd otherwise be a persuasive factor.)

My MIL will *NOT* work with me in dealing with the police or his doctors. Not yet, anyway. She's getting there, but ... it's a process. She *does* conspire with me to take the car on some of their trips, and she's opening up more and more about her concerns in general.

OK then, ask her what it's going to take for her to turn to the right channels for help. Is it going to take her getting hurt very badly in a car wreck caused by him or him killing someone? Ask her what it will take because it sounds like he must be an accident waiting to happen. If he stops short right at the intersection, it's only a matter of time before the brakes will fail and a car will hit them, 50-50 chance of it hitting on her side and her getting hurt so bad she ends up in critical care and maybe comatose. What will it take? Ask her that. Did you know that if she knows something and she says or does nothing that she's actually just as bad as the bad driver for covering for that bad driver because she becomes an accomplice when everything is found out in an investigation. You just wait, it's coming I promise you that

A guilting approach only results in shutdown. In other words, it's been tried, and not just by me.

I suspect *I'm* the one who needs guilting, and lots of it, because I haven't been able to come up with a unilateral solution.

Sometimes guilt tripping guilt tripping makes someone wake up because sometimes people need a wake up call. I think I personally would rather guilt trip someone rather than let this go and run the risk of someone getting seriously hurt or even killed. I don't think I could live with myself if I were the one who knew someone was a dangerous driver and I said or did nothing. I think I personally would rather be guilt trip and moved to save a life by reporting a dangerous driver rather than to deal with blood on my hands because I knew my spouse was an accident waiting to happen. Putting myself in this situation, I can honestly say I would rather save a life no matter what it takes rather than to rest other lives by letting a dangerous driver stay on the road and possibly kill someone. People who should no longer be driving are a danger to not only themselves, but others. People who would disagree are actually selfish and don't care about others on our public streets, of course unless something were to happen to them! What if this dangerous driver were to kill some child out there, then what? What would you then tell those parents of that now deceased child? Someone new this dangerous driver was still out there and knew what was going on and said nothing despite passing a test in front of strangers who don't know what kind of driver this really is? I know I would be killing someone if they struck my child and then I later found out something like this

If my FIL gets into an accident, it's MY fault ... and No One Else's. I get that. It's plain and simple truth.

I have tried guilting - so have others - but it only comes out as us being catastrophizing, and results in an increase in my FIL's determination to drive. It does *not* turn into guilt on my in-laws' part.

My own husband cannot drive - he had to stop at age 54. He accepts this now, though it's hard on him. My own spouse and I were able to deal with it, and to adapt, on our own - no need for aid from relatives, police or DMV (it did help that his doctors were also very clear on this). I was never in denial. My MIL knows we went through it, and that we manage. But at age 85, she does not have the same outlook, or husband-wrangling skills, as I did.

When I'm around, I do the driving. Not negotiable, not anymore. I'm almost never too far from home to turn around and take them somewhere. But if I'm not right there at the house when he wants to drive? He drives. (We do not live in the same neighborhood, but we're very close.)

While I am gradually getting through to my MIL - she does call on me more often - it's too slow for safety. Mea culpa.

If their visit involves a doctor check up at the VA (which is usually does to get the VA discount on drugs) check with your local VA office. They offer free transport to DR visits. They did this for my Dad.

We made the decision to take mom's car away. My brother did all the talking, AND took the key, but with short-term memory loss due to dementia, she forgot all that. On the way out, I told my brother I KNOW she has another key, can you disable the car? So he pulled the battery cable.
Next day at a funeral service, I get a call, let it go to voicemail. NASTY message accusing me of taking her key and wants it back NOW. I returned her call and said I did not touch your key (truth). So she says who did then? Just replied you're so smart, you figure it out and hung up.
NEXT day I get a nastier call DEMANDING I come down and fix whatever I did to her car... so I was right about her having another key and she managed to locate it and try to go out. I just said I did nothing to it, maybe the battery is dead.
We eventually took it to the mechanic because she had ruined one tire and rim (hence me saying we HAVE to take this away) and then using POA sold it.
She still moans about not having "wheels" and being unable to get out. With limited hearing (none on one side, hearing aid that *might* be working and/or not lost), macular degeneration (legally blind in one eye) AND having no idea where she is anymore, we had to step in. She also had "passed" their test, but license is good for 5 YEARS.. thankfully it is now expired. Last time driving/wheels came up I had her take the license out and look at it - when does it expire mom? Oh it is good through 2016 - yes mom, until your birthday, which was in AUGUST!
So, if there is a way to get access briefly to the keys, have someone pull the battery cable.... He might figure it out, but it's worth a try... get it towed to "mechanic" and keep delaying it's return...
As for someone's suggestions about other ways to get the meds - can they not mail them? My mother's insurance uses CareMark mail order for long term meds, so I just used POA to get them sent to me instead of her because she could not remember if she took them or not.
Best of luck - research all your options. Elder Care attorney's are not cheap, but if all else fails...perhaps they can help?

Going over this thread, I see I'm answering the same questions over and over again. And all of my answers are ... well ... incoherent, at best.

My apologies, and thank you all very much for your patience.

When they get dementia and keep driving, there's always the rationalization: 'oh, Mom won't be doing any REAL driving, like on highways. She'll just drive the few blocks to the Dollar Store, or around the corner to do her grocery shopping.' Then Mom gets lost on the way, buys several dozen ears of corn for a fantasized dinner party she's going to have, and ends up several miles out of town, lost, out of gas....Even if they still have their wits, their eyesight, judgement, and reflexes are too poor for them to drive safely. Don't forget the all-too-frequent "I thought I was stepping on the brake, not the gas!"...I know I am preaching to the choir here about dangerous elderly drivers. It could be YOUR relative. My relative was sharp as a tack at age 90 but ended up crashing her car up over the sidewalk, into the wall of a building while backing up, supposedly. . No injuries, thank God, but she said, 'well, I guess my driving days are over, huh?'

I know I am responding late, but it all sounds like this can really turn into a huge power struggle. It can also end up in sneaking around, as I see in the example of the disconnected battery cables. One power move is responded to by another power move, I suppose, then one person gets angry and the other responds even angrier. I suppose the "nice" approach might end up even worse, coming across as passive-aggressive since the ultimate goal, as seen from the view of the elder, is not protection but disempowerment. Looks like reasoning, which will likely work with a college student (such as explaining "prison"), won't necessarily work with an elder.

How about a reward? Rewarding the elder for NOT driving, say, rewarding for using a substitute for driving, or doing the other thing besides driving such as allowing another person to drive or using a cab or bus? Or a reward for giving up the car or keys? This would have to be straightforward, done lovingly, not patronizing, consistent with what you promise, and a offering rather decent temptation to give in to giving up driving. Just a thought. This way, you are relieved from the game playing and power struggles which sound truly exhausting.

It's often a power struggle, but unfortunately when the elderly driver digs in his/her heels that's what it has to come down to. For THEIR own good.

My rationale concerning my Mother's driving was (still is) that she'd reached a point where even though she was at the early stages of dementia and fine in many ways, she was in some instances beginning to be NOT in her right mind. Also, since the driving issue concerned her 'independence' (how I now LOATHE that word!) she could not be objective about driving. So I - being the one person who WAS in her right mind, AND the objective one - had to take control of the situation, which I did. I took the keys, and had my boyfriend disable the car (I think pulling something out of the distributor cap...?). Then, as I said in my earlier post, I had others contact the DMV. It was sad, but I did what I believed was the only right thing to do under those circumstances. I will never regret not letting her drive. And BELIEVE me, there were BATTLES where it would have been much easier if I'd just given in to her.

I know what can happen with elderly drivers, and what helped me to action and to stand my ground was remembering: 1. My Grandmother - in her early 80's, and whose car I was supposed to get when she quit driving (I was in high school), wrapped said car around a tree, totaling it. Luckily, she was okay. And then 2. Her sister - my Tanta Emma - also in her early 80's - wasn't so lucky. She was driving, ran a stop sign, and was broadsided. She and her husband Walter were okay at the time, but a few months later poor Walter died. It was believed the shock to his body from the accident was what did him in. Oh yeah - Emma died a few months after that - depressed, and wracked with guilt believing that she'd killed her husband.

So, when I'd start getting weak-kneed thinking perhaps I was being 'mean', 'unfair', whatever about stopping Mom's driving and perhaps I should reconsider, I'd literally think back about Grandmom and Tanta Emma and KNOW I'd made the right decision concerning Mom's driving.

Stopping my Mother's driving was a tough choice, but many times the right thing to do isn't always the easiest. I hope this gives some food for thought.

My problem (sorry excuse?) is that my MIL is reluctant to do anything, though she's slowly coming around. She is very sharp. I can't simply Do Things to *their* car without her informed consent. (And anyway, she needs the car.)

Also, while FIL is not sharp, he still cannot be tricked in that way.

Which yes, I know, does not relieve me of *any* responsibility when something goes wrong.

Confounded, When I mentioned that the ER should have been asking questions about your MILs injury, I didn't mean to imply that it was not an accident. My point is that the ER should have documented what happened, since they should be able to prove that they outruled abuse. Therefore, they should have documentation indicating that his driving skill was questionable. I suggest you have your MIL get that info and you take it to the DMV and express your concern that he is getting worse all the time and needs to be re-evaluated. If he has fender-benders, your MIL needs to try to get a police report. If you keep pestering the BMV with requests to re-test him, especially if you have third-party documentation, like ER report or police reports, maybe the DMV will step up and take official action, which it sounds like he might accept. Perhaps you could include photos of damages to his vehicle.

In cases of injury, that HMO typically pulls patients aside to ask if the injury resulted in abuse, and whether the patient feels threatened in any way. Otherwise, the ER does *not* concern itself with anybody's driving ability, except for ... maybe ... the patient's, if the patient was the driver, or ... maybe ... in case of DUI.

Police were not involved at all in this accident. I did make note of the ambulance drivers, and I recognized one of them, but he rushed off (probably for another call) as I began to approach.

My biggest roadblock is that my MIL will not - not yet, anyway - take *any* overt action. She is quite competent, so that (seems to) limit what I can do, beyond continuing to share my observations, offer to drive, and make sure I'm available to drive.

I'll never be able to stress enough the importance of getting a dangerous driver off the road before they hurt or kill themselves or someone else. It's very selfish to know what's going on and still yet allow it to go on anyway. I only wish I knew where this was going on or I'd say something to the proper channels myself

GodsAnointed ... you are so right! This is MY Total Responsibility!

Legally, however, my hands are tied. At the moment. I'm trying to work with my MIL and to build Yet Another case to bring before the proper channels - again. One of my SILs is moving over here, and we plan to work together, as well.

I can see my question has caused you pain, and I deeply regret that.

@Confounded - Yes, all situations are different. I was just offering my experience and thoughts of what I went through hoping someone might benefit. I know it's different when the folks are your in-laws and not your parents. Also, MIL will naturally defer to her husband and that's to be expected, I think especially from that particular generation. I was also 'lucky' in the sense that my Dad had already passed (as he'd have certainly stood with Mom against me with this). I'm also an only child, so no siblings to battle with or have to win-over, etc. Anyway, good luck and hang in there.

Thank you, Noor75! ... Situations are different, indeed. Actually, the fact that I'm an in-law of looooong standing whose husband (their son) was forced to give up driving early is my sole "advantage." It's just not sufficient on its own for quick action. All siblings-in-law are on board, just far away geographically ... for now.

I also get you on "luck." Such classic solutions as sabotage and subterfuge only work after dementias have reached a certain level. And when a competent spouse is present, but not on board - however understandable that is - it's a stalemate.

All in all, I guess we're in a not-so-bad space. But that doesn't make it good.

Confounded, Yes, as a fellow driver, I am indeed very concerned! I have a very dearly beloved foster family living in Ohio and I just found out very recently I have a half-sister that I didn't even know about who happens to be living in Texas! I sure don't want someone I know coming into contact with this or any other dangerous driver and possibly being hurt or worse yet, killed. In fact, I think I'm going to alert those I care about to this thread, one of my loved ones in particular happens to be married to a lawyer and has some very serious leverage in the community

Without going into my personal geography ... your friends and loved ones are not in danger from me or mine.

I'm doing all I can do, and am seeking help from other relatives -- which is forthcoming, but not right this minute. Any messing with the car will land me in prison, in which case FIL will keep on driving, with no one to slow him down. And my husband ends up stranded.

And if you want to bring law enforcement down on me personally, please-please-please go ahead! It may actually be helpful.

Yes, I'm THAT frustrated with the situation.

I will never forget the day I made the voluntary decision to give up driving. Not one other person decided for me nor gave me the idea. I decided entirely on my own many years ago. I walked into the DMV and told them I did not want to drive anymore nor did I want to have a driver's license. The people behind the counter looked at me like I was completely out of my mind. I was 30 years old and not at all handicapped. But they took it and i have not regretted the decision.

A few years ago the idiots in modern science finally figured out what we all knew all along. A portion of the population absolutely cannot tell their right from their left. Now why did it take them so long to figure that one out? I have known that by instinct for decades. Only I have a very bad case of it. Meaning driving isn't impossible (I passed the driving test fine) but it's too darned scary. Also, I am best off not doing certain jobs involving spatial tasks (such as waitressing, shelving stuff, or bagging groceries). I have met other people who were equally right-left confused and I know it sure isn't a death sentence, as I am good enough at plenty of other things. I've been happily car-free for decades.

I really wish all those lousy drivers on the road of any age do us a favor and please, please recognize that perhaps try something else instead of driving. Do what I did. Work hard at something else, and let the bus driver or cab driver or your pal wow you with their driving. Be a bike riding star, and go shock the DMV people by turning in your selfie.

Ibeenscammed,

Thanks for sharing! My foster dad was another one who voluntarily gave up driving, but not everyone does that.

I had an elderly friend who was going blind, but I don't know if that may have been why he couldn't drive anymore, (but it may have been). Not everyone needs to be off the road, but those who do need to give up the keys to protect those who can still drive. I alerted everyone I know in my contacts about this thread and the dilemma behind it hoping raised awareness will help save at least those lives. I'm also glad for social media because hopefully people will start talking, there are unsafe drivers everywhere, it's only a matter of finding them and getting them all off the road.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there are more people voluntarily giving up the keys since speed limits everywhere are increasing into the 70s and above in other areas. I think the speed limits anyway should be back down to 45 or 50 because higher speed limits increase accident risk, which is why my foster dad voluntarily gave up driving. He explained that the speed limits were just too high for his old car which was never built for the higher speed limits. According to him, back in the day of the Packard, speed limits must've been much lower back then. Dad said when they increased the speed limits and people started driving carelessly, he just gave up driving altogether but still maintained his license as identification to use wherever identification is needed

Families can really get put through the wringer. Better alternatives to driving would take a huge amount of pressure off. Not everybody has a retired relative just itching to drive them around!

Actually, I enjoy driving a great deal. But after this ... if I ever get to the point where my chauffeuring skills are no longer required, I plan to give up my license immediately, even if I'm still a good driver. If my skills deteriorate before that, I fervently hope I'll be able to recognize it, and stop. If not, I plan to give up the license the first time someone ... anyone ... suggests I might want to consider it.

If you can still drive, then I very strongly suggest that you continue to do so as long as you're actually safe. I especially encourage people who live alone with no outside help to definitely continue driving but only if they're absolutely safe to do so.

For those who should no longer be driving, I strongly encourage you to get off the road and give up the keys before you kill yourself or someone else! If you know you shouldn't be driving but continue to drive anyway, you can blame yourself for any future accidents and damage you cause in that accident.

For those of you who know someone who shouldn't be driving, you can anonymously report the driver to the authorities by simply making an anonymous police report. There's a saying that if you see something, say something. If you know someone shouldn't be driving, it's up to you to open your mouth at very least even if you can do nothing else. Knowing someone is a dangerous driver and doing nothing makes you just as dangerous as that driver simply because you know but (chose) to say nothing. To those who say you can do nothing about the situation, yes you can! You have a mouth, and you can at least open it up and say something! Again, if you see or even know something, definitely use the mouth God gave you and speak up! Not doing so puts others at risk. It seems like every time we turn on the news, there's another dangerous driver who's been in an accident for some odd reason. The latest one I heard about on Facebook was about a car that skidded off the snow-covered road and up a cable connected to some kind of tower. The car was left standing on its bumper. That driver should've never been behind the wheel that day, they knew the road conditions and yet they chose to drive despite the dangerous conditions. I'm starting to wonder if maybe that driver should just give up driving if they have a history of accidents.

Alternatives should be offered to those who should get off the road and give up driving. Public transit can be expensive because it all adds up even if it happens to be cheap to ride for a day. It all adds up, but there are certain ones that will actually give discounts to the elderly and disabled, and if you get Social Security, you should definitely check into discounts on public transit. If your local transit offers discounts, definitely sign up but use it sparingly if you're on a fixed income and a tight budget

I'm 60, and have an excellent driving record in a region where driving is challenging to all.

However, I'm also in a dense suburb. Buses and taxis are almost useless, but malls are close by, and services such as Uber and Lyft are readily available. Most other errands can be performed online.

Environmentally speaking, the sooner I give up my license, the better. This gives more ecological wiggle-room for those who MUST continue driving.

Since I like to stay close to home at all times, an early and final stop to driving is ideal. But this is NOT for everybody. I would never urge anyone to stop, if it means hardship and unwanted isolation.

1) I'm 65 and notice that I am getting a bit ....'spacier' ....driving around. I turn off the radio and concentrate more. I never drive out of the city, only in a 10 mile radius around home, and never on the highway. 2) When I go to the Dollar Store, I make sure I'm parked way on the fringes, so many senior citizens hang out there, there are always some parking lot accidents!

I was thinking that if you really don't feel safe with a particular driver, you can choose not to get in the car with them. Choosing to do so for whatever reason only puts you at risk because you chose to get in the car with them anyway. If that driver were to have an accident, not only is the driver at fault for causing an accident, but you can also blame yourself for voluntarily choosing to get in the car with someone you know is a risky driver. Therefore, if you get hurt in an wreck caused by that driver, you can blame yourself for even getting in the car with them when you could've chosen not to. It doesn't matter why you got in the car with them, it's your fault if you're hurt in the accident that driver causes because you could've chosen not to get in the car with them. You're an adult, you can choose not to get in the car with someone you know is a risky driver. Doing so anyway, you're risking your own life as well as the driver is risking themselves and others. You can blame yourself if you get hurt because you chose to get in the car with them when they shouldn't be driving. I can only hope insurance company start cracking down on these types of situations if they don't already do so. I also hope some insurance company is reading this because they can start making policy is not to pay out on these types of situations. It's unfair to many people commit insurance fraud, and this would be a type of insurance fraud if this dangerous driver wrecked the car causing damage. This is where I think insurance companies should not cover damage caused by this particular type of driver but they should still continue covering the victims who weren't at fault. In other words, if there is a wreck in this type of situation, only cover the ones who are not at fault and not the ones who caused the wreck or those who knowingly got in the car with a risky driver. This would be the policy if I owned an insurance company