Driving: Moral dilemma.

it is not a matter of may I drive? it is a matter of "if you want my assistance then I am driving. You are taking your personal (volunteer) time to be helpful and to keep them safe. They are the ones who need the help. If they can't cooperate with your request, you MUST walk away and just say you are sorry you then you really don't want or need my help. It is the hardest thing to do. I was my Mother's robot for sixty years but now I am no longer at her mercy for her demands. We compromise with each other. I drive now to where she would like to go. If she wants something, then I want her give me the same respect and consideration for my needs.
You have the right as an adult, even if it is your M/D/MIL/FIL to control your own life. I understand why they going to the base, but it was their decision to do so. Once they realize how difficult it is to do by themselves, they will have a change of heart and accept your assistance, that is, only if you can drive. Remember when people get older the biggest fear is, little by little they are losing control of their life and what they physically can do for themselves. Once they start accepting help it means they have to give someone else the control. They will fight toot and nail to keep their way of life to their standards, so that is the real reason why he wants to drive. Our elders need the same guidance as our children. We want them happy and safe, while you keep yourself happy and safe too.

Any prescriptions you get on base for free are also covered by TriCare at regular pharmacies, like CVS, Walgreens, and even grocery store pharmacies like Harris Teeter, etc. And now Target, WalMart and everyone else does the TriCare prescriptions super cheap. My mom takes 5 rxs each day, and a 30 day supply totals less than $20, and actually 3 of them are filled as 90 day supplies. The way to set up mail order is the doctors have to fax the prescriptions to TriCare and/or Medicare. My mom's doctor doesn't use a fax, so that's why I go to the pharmacy to get them. The consideration on your dad driving isn't will he be okay, etc, but how bad will he feel when he kills or maims someone, and what a bad way to wind down the later years of your life.

They should be able to get their meds through the military prescription mail away. It's express scripts through Tricare. Otherwise I would tell them that you will only go with them if you can drive. Be honest and tell him his driving scares you.

The driving issue is a difficult one and I wish the government would step up to the challenge of ensuring seniors are okay to drive. In Ontario Canada, the Ministry of Transportation renewed my mother's drivers licence at age 84 for 2 more years. She was clearly showing Alzheimer's symptoms at the time and we were sure she wouldn't pass. We were shocked to learn that after some classroom kumbaya session, the fact that she could draw the hands on a clock, and NO road test, our officials decided she was qualified to drive. Governments advice - have a little talk with mom. Yeah right. No way will she stop driving as she thinks she is perfectly fine. Perfectly normal when you have Alzheimer's. Although most seniors drive carefully, statistics show that people aged 70 or older have a higher accident rate per kilometre driven than any other age group except young male drivers. Unfortunately the government keeps renewing seniors licenses pretty easily so it becomes the family's responsibility first, then the primary care physician. What it comes down to is, are you going to allow your parent to drive and possibly seriously hurt or kill themself or someone else? I seriously hope not for everyone's sake. First we tried blocking her car in the driveway whenever we could. We tried to drive her wherever we could. We hid her keys at times. She had a few fender benders. After the last one, she settled the repair costs from out of pocket, not through insurance. We found the lady she hit and asked her to return the cheque and report it through her insurance company hoping that my mom's nsurance company would decline future coverage. They didnt. Finally, after her last collision we refused to get her car out of the body shop. This finally put an end to her driving although she still has a valid licence. Thankfully!!! The road road is a little safer. After she was officially diagnosed with Alzheimer's, her doctor was ultimately very good at getting her license suspended quickly, but it takes a while to get to that point. Too long. Now she no longer drives. In a rural area, she needed transportation and lost her freedom. A whole new set of challenges and problems for the family. Some government services are available for transportation but they are limited. This was a major reason why we moved her to a retirement home. At least she is not driving anymore. I wish the government would do more thorough testing of seniors cognitive abilities and check with family members before renewing senior licences, especially the over 80 crowd!!! My complaint to the Ministry seemed to go unheard and my response from them was some standard PR nonsense. I believe that in Ontario, the government does not want to tackle this issue becauss of the cost. They seem satisfied to regulate the heck out of getting a new licence with a graduated licencing system that takes years to complete. They worry about drunk driving and R. I. D. E. checks but they turn a blind eye when it comes to seniors??? I don't get it.

Just an FYI - the VA does not deliver by post. Express Scripts is our mail delivery system, and some meds are not covered but are covered if one picks it up at the base pharmacy (or kiosk in the BX). Maybe this is the situation with the father-in-law. Also, they don't mail narcotics (Class 2 drugs).

Can the MP's on your FIL's base be contacted with this information? Perhaps they can stop him and prevent him from driving. I am not that familiar with the military, but maybe you could contact the base commander and explain the situation. If he can't drive on base, I guess you will have to...

My mother should have stopped driving 2 years ago as she can barely see, is almost deaf and has dementia. I was the only person saying this and the DMV renewed her license last summer at age 86, daylight only. She insists on living alone and driving to the grocery store etc. Fast forward to December 1 when she decided to go to the grocery store for something she had forgotten on her earlier visit, after dark. She drove right into the back of a parked pickup truck, totaled her car and the truck, and suffered a broken sternum. She was hospitalized several days and sent to a rehab nursing home for a week. She's now back at her house, living alone.

She no longer has a car but still has a license! All I can say is thank God she didn't hurt or kill someone else. She wasn't even given a citation for this!

We get upset with the DMV around here that are always letting people drive who are unfit to drive. Their excuse- they feel sorry for them. The real reason is that is about getting more money for the DMV. I've heard many stories from concerned children about their parents who should not be driving. My Mom is about to that stage now, so will have the same battle with the DMV. The only way around it is for the DR to say they should not drive any more.

My Dad would get his meds through the VA. My parents would drive a long distance to get Dad's meds and they lived out of state at the time and I could not help them at the time. However, after some research, we discovered a small VA clinic a lot closer which could dispense his meds. What a relief. Perhaps some research would find your Dad a closer option.

Are you sure that they can't mail him the meds? My experience with the VA is that they will mail them a 90-day supply of most meds. FIL should check into that possibility....or you could and then let them know that this is what needs to occur.

Find a VFW or Disabled Vets place (sometimes at community college or senior center locations) and have counselor check into the medical insurance setup - they may have better solution and suggestions. Get a list of medications and check out with Medicare advisor (is there a Rx drug plan as part of the insurance setup?)
Perhaps the distant base trip for meds is a relic of the past. Walgreens accepts Tricare now if they have Tricare coverage. Mail order should certainly be available option. My uncle has 3 insurance coverages - VA, Tricare + something else and doesn't pay much at all ($3-7) and mail order for 3 month supply of on-going meds.
My uncle tells me the base grocery prices are no longer a good deal as they were 20 years ago. He gets similar pricing at regular stores and doesn't bother going to the base commissary anymore.

And above all, refuse to go if you are not driving and your vehicle would be best to avoid the key possession issue.

I didn't read all the comments (so forgive me if I say something someone else has said).
I recently went through this with my FIL, so I am familiar.
First of all, you said " he's passed special examinations from the DMV - twice - and the last test was about a month ago." What "special exams" did he have? Seriously, if he passed a written exam and a driving exam, I can't understand how he COULD if he is a bad driver. HOWEVER, there are probably TWO things you CAN do (I know because I did them). 1) You can talk to his dr. and if his dr. agrees that he shouldn't be driving, then he can sign the form (from the state) that says he medically should not be driving. At the very least, in this case, the DMV will retest him but it will be UP TO HIM to navigate it (make the appointments, etc.). If he has dementia, his dr. will most definitely not sign the paperwork for him to drive. 2) YOU can turn him in (through a special DMV) form. And it's anonymous. This is what we finally had to do. You send in the form with your reasons why you feel he shouldn't be driving. Then you will receive (at least I did) a phone call from DMV to interview you about it. Then HE will receive a letter saying that he must retest (written and driving) PLUS his dr must give the ok that he can drive (within 30 days) or his license will be suspended.

As for the drugs, is there a mail-order option?

I will be praying for a solution for you! So stressful.

The driving issue is a tough one indeed. I went through it with my mom. I'd even taken her keys away, and she called TripleA, had the car towed there, told them she lost her keys and needed new ones made - ALL BEHIND MY BACK!! Luckily, the Nissan dealership deals with such all the time, so they called me and tipped me off, and together we finessed her in to not having keys made.

Mom and I also had a sit-down with her Neurologist who point blank told her she was a danger on the road - THAT made no difference to her - she just told him that with all her years of driving she was less of a danger on the road than he was (he was in his 40's). Other docs were not as forthright as he was, but gently nudged her toward giving up her license - to NO avail - she'd have none of it.

Finally - I rallied her doctors - who ALL wrote a letter to the DMV telling them she should NOT be driving. I also had relatives write in as well (you see, this way I could honestly look her in the face and tell her "Hey, your doctors wrote to the DMV, not me!" Thank God for semantics!) . At long last her license WAS pulled and that was that. It was a battle but well worth the fight...and her driving wasn't THAT bad, but I had no desire to be a passenger in a vehicle where driver pulls OUT the IN driveway of Loew's on to a busy, major, highway.

This made no difference to my mom as she was in total denial about her failing driving capabilities, but you might want to ask FIL and MIL if they are ready to lose ALL their hard earned assets if they should hit and kill someone and get sued.

Good Luck, it isn't easy but it IS a battle worth going to the wall for - way too much at stake.

PS - I should add that it's my understanding that here in Florida a doctors' word is golden and can even trump a passed driving test. Also, I was tipped off with a nod and a wink that often the test givers at the DMV know ahead of time due to doctors' notes, etc. that the person should not be driving and take that in to consideration when giving the test (I don't want to say 'rig it' against the senior, but...well as I said a nod and a wink.

My mom's dr wrote a letter to the DMV and I took it with me to her appt there. Told them she has alzheimers, gave them letter from dr and still the idiot she went before asked her if she was voluntarally giving up her license! I could have kicked him! Fortunately mom was in a decent mood that moment and said I guess so. Can't trust DMV to do anything right.

If he passed to special driving exams, I'm not sure there's going to be much you can do outside of getting a recording from an onboard dash cam or having someone outside the car witness any dangerous action that a witness can see. You may also want to go to the local police station or even your local highway patrol and alert them to what you're noticing and exactly what you described here, and see what they say. You may also want to alert your local APS to the problem and see how they can help you

The DMV says he is fine. What does he do that makes u uncomfortable? Have u discussed this with DMV?

Oh, this post hits so close to home. My grandmother seems to have curtailed her driving because her vision now is just so poor. Finally! I've posted about her previously. It's terribly upsetting. She's been driving with expired license and no insurance. Her DMV license expired and insurance would not renew without her DMV license. She's had the opportunity to have her medications delivered to her since she's in a palliative care program but she denies signing up for the service so she continues to have a reason/excuse to drive across street to CVS to continue to get her meds filled there. While she bitches and moans they never coordinate her meds properly or they cost a couple of bucks despite her Medicare covering most of her meds at $0 cost to her and her healthy income, I've finally figured out she just wants a reason to get in the car so she can drive, shop at CVS! Any rational person would probably welcome the delivery. She won't even seek help with a personal shopper for groceries but does her own light grocery shopping across street. She just doesn't want to give up her control or independence no matter her heart condition despite her doctor's recommendations. The thought of her being in an accident, backing up over someone because she can't see or hear them just isn't important enough to her for her to consider giving up the keys. Only now that her vision is truly so bad with macular degeneration is this stopping her, or at least now limiting her from operating vehicle from time to time. I've long since done the driving for us when I visit as I won't allow her to drive the car for us. I put my foot down long time ago.

As to the original post, I think we often put our elder's needs above our own sometimes, and sometimes it's just ridiculous the things families go through. People need a reality check as aging brings uncomfortable realities and the older generations don't seem to have been equipped/prepared to deal with it. Perhaps the boomer generation will become more enlightened with aging and can gracefully move into their mature years without overly burdening their families or adding more dysfunction to troubled family relationships. I know family dynamics play a huge role in what can be said or not in difficult times. Control, manipulation, is at work etc. Social workers can often step in and be a buffer, a great source in these situations. Best of luck as things progress.

This is so difficult. On one side it is their independence and ability they are fighting to preserve, but things change. Capable, authoritative, military fathers (I presume) must be hard to say no to. Take my advice, as someone who knows, don't get in that car with them. It enables them. My dad drove his car off an embankment last summer. It didn't kill him then, but it was the beginning of the end. Just say no! Get their drugs from a cheap online pharmacy that will honor military benefits. Are they signed up for Medicare part D? Good luck to you. I've been in your shoes. My dad turned out to have an unusual kind of dementia that makes him think he is the same person he was 20 years ago, so the fact that he can't turn his head is irrelevant! Be careful. Good Luck.

My fil gets his meds in the mail from the va. He also gets his batteries through for his hearing aids vial mail from the va. i call the number at our va and voice commands prompts direct me to the correct dept.. ex. For batteries i get connected to the denver distribution ctnr. I just follow the prompts. I do this for my husband too.

Among the reasons I believe (OK, I'm sure) my FIL cannot drive include: Sudden, incautious lane changes and pullouts; Poor spacing - he drives far too close to cars ahead of him, but slows abruptly at intersections and stops 2 car lengths (or more) behind the next car; Fender-benders (admittedly minor, so far). He also tires easily - a big problem on trips outside the neighborhood.

His memory is poor, and just keeps getting worse. While he can perform all daily skills, I noticed he was not able to help my MIL much at the ER or after we got her home.

The day I sent my OP, he had just pulled out of the garage without checking to see if my MIL was completely in the car. He gets impatient - he had to go, and he had to move NOW! The car door knocked my MIL to the ground, and she hit her head on the pavement. We spent most of the day in the ER (he drove me, and it was scary). Luckily, my MIL's wound was relatively minor, though she still has a painful bump.

Then, he wanted me to go to the base with him the next day. With him driving, of course. I felt trapped and obligated. Many thanks, again, for helping me snap out of that!

He's already been reported to the DMV twice, and was cleared - again - just days before all of this. His regular doctor will NOT do anything - it was a substitute doctor who most recently tried to stop him from driving, and that doctor is pretty much never available.

There was no way to move further until all the holiday foo-far-rah was over, and now, of course, I've got a head cold to beat the band!

As soon as I'm reasonably non-contagious, I plan to talk to my MIL about the possibility of a neuropsych exam. She acknowledges that he has difficulties. I'm also documenting what I see so I can file my own report, if need be.

Unfortunately, I may need to ride with him at least once more so I can add to the documentation. Frankly, I'm a wimp about this (the riding, not the filing). Catch-22.

My MIL is non-techy by choice. But she is able to learn to do what she needs/wants to do. We may be able to work on an online prescription solution, if both the military and civilian insurers don't tangle them up in too much red tape.

My husband was forced to stop driving after his stroke at age 54. I had similar fun with him, too, for awhile. But his judgment improved over time, and he lost interest.

God bless you, confounded! I question your MIL's mental state if she's willing to let him drive after having knocked her down with the car! My FIL had to have wife and both sons in agreement and nagging and taking the keys to stop him. Can your husband talk to his dad about it?

My MIL has trusted him for 65 years. She trusts what The Experts say, too. Despite that, she's become increasingly apprehensive, but she will not confront him directly on this. However, she has slipped me her car keys and helped me take over on occasion.

My husband is with me/us on this, but he's not in a place where he feels he can talk to either of them. For one thing, this is all very emotional for him, and his post-stroke response to strong emotion is to go into deep fatigue and involuntarily zone out. Talking strategically is also difficult for him most of the time. He wants to be on the team, so add his own frustration to the mix.

One of my sisters-in-law intends to move down this way in the next month or two. She filed the first report on my FIL. I just hope family dynamics (all families got 'em) don't stand in the way of sanity.

Confounded, I just was wondering if the ER personnel might get on your side. Evidently that episode was after FIL passed the DMV tests, so maybe he is "less able" to drive now.
I'd think the kind of injury your MIL had would have prompted the ER to ask questions--either he did it on purpose, which is spouse abuse, or it was an accident that could indicate declining driving ability. Either way, they should have records. I hope you can go to the BMV with this info and suggest he be retested.

Regarding the Rx, you might contact your federal Congressman (or woman). Their offices have people who address concerns of constituents who are having problems with federal programs, and veterans' benefits should be important to them.

The eternal question: how safe is it for the old goats to continue driving themselves? (I am approaching old goat age myself, so chill out. I don't like driving with my husband who is a youngster of 63!) Something terrible is going to happen, eventually. Please read the responses here and do what you can. I can't believe they let some of these people keep their licenses and drive! It's like on 'Everybody Loves Raymond', where Frank was clearly an unsafe driver, but he kept getting OK'd at the DMV!

The ER may have asked my MIL before we were allowed to enter the room. This was definitely an accident (I was there, and besides, I know my FIL). They would not have gone any further.

Several years ago, our state DMV got in a spot o' bother for yanking licenses inappropriately, so they've since swung in the opposite direction. Many doctors are also reluctant to act.

Practically speaking, it's the family's sole responsibility, which we must proudly take on with our hands tied behind our backs. I don't think I'm *legally* liable, but morally and ethically, where it really counts -- I'm 150% responsible.

I don't think driving privileges should be based on age, but on ability. Of course, ability should be tested more frequently after a certain age (though I'm not sure which age), and/or when certain medical conditions are present, and/or when driving records indicate possible issues.

I'm starting to wonder if it's possible that he may still be driving because this is the only way he can ever get his meds since this branch doesn't offer mail or delivery. This is just a thought, a possible reason that may be keeping him behind the wheel since he really needs those meds and they happen to be provided by that particular military base. Maybe he's driving because he has to, is this a possibility? This is exactly what I'm wondering

I think my mention of the military base has been distracting. Apologies!

Most of the bases around here have closed, so the one he uses IS the closest one. He can get meds through a civilian provider - but they would cost several hundreds of extra dollars per month. (He does not get anything though the VA.)

That said ... his driving's the issue. I have offered and offered and offered to drive them - and not just to the base and back. I can do so with ease. (Sometimes, they'll let me.) They're a few minutes away, and I'm retired, so my own convenience is not an issue.

So yes, they need to go there. But he does *not* need to drive. He looks for reasons to do so. If we eliminated the base trips, he'd simply find a different long drive to take.

OK, you might want to remind him of the legal consequences if he hits someone and rear ends them because it'll be his fault more than likely. They'll give him for "failure to stop within assured clear distance." You'll also want to warn him since there are tons of bikers out there. All you have to say is, "kill a biker, go to jail!" I've never been in jail but I've watched enough shows and videos and even know people who've been there, and according to descriptions, jail won't be easy no matter who you are. I think it's time to start opening your mouth and speaking up every time he comes up on someone's back because what if his brakes failed and he actually slammed into someone, and maybe even killed them or worse yet, a biker? This is why they told us in the group home to stay at least three car length behind someone on the road, and I later heard you should stop one car length or farther behind them.