Driving: Moral dilemma.

You certainly do not have any obligation to get in a car with a driver that YOU consider unsafe, no matter what any DMV person says. Is your MIL aware of the possible financial catastrophe if FIL causes an accident? Some people think that because they have insurance they don't have to worry about this, but insurance coverage has limits and it really is not so hard to exceed them with the cost of medical care compensation these days.

The other option is to inquire about having an Occupational Therapist do a driving skills/safety assessment. They look for their ability to react in an appropriate time frame to traffic, etc. There may be a fee but definitely worth the effort and cost. As for going on social media to "expose" someone's bad driving, well, there really has to be a more civil way to address the issue. That seems to be the approach for being rude without accepting responsibility these days. Let's all try to remember what our grandparents hopefully would have taught us about good manners and kindness.

Godsanointed what would you do if you were in this exact situation. I understand your concern, but the RMV deemed FIL fit to drive. Tampering with a motor vehicle is a felony and using social media can be considered harassment and cyber bullying which is also a crime, FIL could even be granted a restraining order. This is a dilemma that is becoming a big problem as the baby boomers are getting older. Confounded is limited on what she can do, driving them around and continue to encourage FIL not to drive.

The trouble with convincing people who are not thinking clearly is that they are not thinking clearly. And Confounded's situation is made much more complicated by FIL's "safe" - HA! - driving having been endorsed, twice, by the authorities. It is the authorities themselves who have convinced him that he can safely drive, provided he takes a few simple precautions.

Confounded, I feel for you. But by this point I would be looking on my FIL qua driver, rather than qua FIL, and my attitude would be severe.

Aside - the lane changing business particularly got to me. My FIL swerved without looking or signalling across two lanes of the Marylebone Road, very nearly took out a motorbike, and THEN said "bloody motorbikes!" He was the WORST driver I have ever seen in action. But this was back when he was younger and comparatively able bodied; the truth of it was that he was just a terrible driver. There's a lot of it about, and taking their licences off them is truly not that simple. If only the various governments would make it much harder to pass your test in the first place, insist on re-licensing every ten years, ban proven offenders permanently...

Well, actually, what would happen is that there'd be a lot more totally illegal drivers with no insurance on the roads. In the short term, anyway.

Confounded, I hope this mental exercise might help - when thinking and talking about this, strongly visualise your FIL as a cab driver who has turned up to be your chauffeur, rather than a much loved person whom you like and respect. It may help you find the words to say "you are a menace. Get out from behind the wheel NOW" - and show him you mean it. It's a question of being prepared for him not to like you.

And stop being nice to MIL when she backs him up. She's making excuses, and it won't do.

All of that said ... I am painfully aware of my responsibility in this matter, and I am working on it, in ways that are legal and respectful (if firm) of all parties involved.

If I am successful, I will post a new thread.

Thank you all for our comments.

The car also belongs to my MIL, a competent, licensed driver who, thus far, will NOT go along with any sabotage or removal schemes.

Under the circumstances, if I were to go ahead and do it anyway, I'd be committing a crime. The car would only be returned to service. I might even end up incarcerated, which doesn't help anybody.

Blasting our IDs on social media or local news will not help the situation at all. We do not have police records, so it would be an act of harassment. I would also lose the trust I'm building with my MIL.

Inability to immediately stop his dangerous driving means he can actually hurt or kill himself or someone else the next time he picks up the keys and gets behind the wheel! I think someone needs to find and hide the keys or at least remove the ignition key from the ring before someone gets killed! All it takes is just one time, and that very next time he gets behind the wheel, someone may be planning a funeral, don't put someone else's life in jeopardy. Yes, something needs done right now.
I for one strongly agree with starting with a local newspaper article. If your clever with words, You can incorporate the car's description into the article and kind of hint by describing the person behind the wheel of that car. If you're clever enough, you can find a way to incorporate the license plate number, and it'll take a smart person to read between the lines to figure it out.

For instance, regular Ohio license plates have six digits. Let's say you take that license plate number and turn it into a sentence for your article.

* You start by first writing down the license plate number and the car's description. Now, try to come up with a sentence relevant to what your article is about. You can be very clever about turning the license plate number into a sentence, but try to keep the number in order as it appears on the license plate so others know who to watch out for once they figure out what you're saying and it's details. If the dangerous driver is going to continue driving, that means you must level the playing field and play dirty! If you're clever enough to know how to be creative with words, you can get away with directly exposing the person.

If your article is rejected:

Remember, you always have social media, you can always plug up the public timeline and expose the person directly without all the clever creativeness. You can come right out and say it straight up on public social media, even exposing the person's name, car description and license plate number without getting creative as I described before.

Another thought is to contact your local paper. Sometimes they do "human interest" stories on situations like this, and people might want to know that they a sharing the public highways with someone who may not be competent to get behind the wheel. More than once I have seen the results of shining a light via a news article on some injustice or otherwise intractable situation.

Well, pros can be clueless. Not always, but the potential is there.

When I posted the OP, I actually felt I was morally obligated to get in the car with him, no matter what, but that prospect scared the **** out of me. Now, thanks to the group, I've made it clear that this is NOT gonna happen.

Stopping his driving altogether, however, will not happen instantly, but not because of lack of effort on my part. As of now, I have no legal standing to make it happen (and my incarceration would not improve matters) ... but I am working on it.

Thanks noor75! I think if the doctor were to ride with this dangerous driver, the doctor would see fit to permanently pull this person off the road once and for all!

I firmly stand in my views and I won't budge. When I was talking about not covering people who caused wrecks, When I was speaking of passengers, I wasn't speaking of those who didn't know the driver was dangerous but those who DO know the driver is dangerous and still knowingly get in the car with that driver anyway

@ Confounded - LOL, if Mother's doctor had recommended someone accompany her, I'd tell him, ok buddy - front passenger seat's open, YOU RIDE WITH HER!!!

I wouldn't penalize or refuse coverage to a *passenger* in any case.

1) The passenger may not have previously known the driver was hazardous. Or,

2) The passenger may have followed a professional recommendation that this driver needs someone to accompany them (I've actually seen this advice come from doctors and eldercare experts).

At some point, I may need to ride with my FIL in order to assess and document, so I have some chance of making a strong case that both his doctors and the DMV will finally act upon appropriately.

Also a final thought is I think there should be a risky driver registry

I was thinking that if you really don't feel safe with a particular driver, you can choose not to get in the car with them. Choosing to do so for whatever reason only puts you at risk because you chose to get in the car with them anyway. If that driver were to have an accident, not only is the driver at fault for causing an accident, but you can also blame yourself for voluntarily choosing to get in the car with someone you know is a risky driver. Therefore, if you get hurt in an wreck caused by that driver, you can blame yourself for even getting in the car with them when you could've chosen not to. It doesn't matter why you got in the car with them, it's your fault if you're hurt in the accident that driver causes because you could've chosen not to get in the car with them. You're an adult, you can choose not to get in the car with someone you know is a risky driver. Doing so anyway, you're risking your own life as well as the driver is risking themselves and others. You can blame yourself if you get hurt because you chose to get in the car with them when they shouldn't be driving. I can only hope insurance company start cracking down on these types of situations if they don't already do so. I also hope some insurance company is reading this because they can start making policy is not to pay out on these types of situations. It's unfair to many people commit insurance fraud, and this would be a type of insurance fraud if this dangerous driver wrecked the car causing damage. This is where I think insurance companies should not cover damage caused by this particular type of driver but they should still continue covering the victims who weren't at fault. In other words, if there is a wreck in this type of situation, only cover the ones who are not at fault and not the ones who caused the wreck or those who knowingly got in the car with a risky driver. This would be the policy if I owned an insurance company

1) I'm 65 and notice that I am getting a bit ....'spacier' ....driving around. I turn off the radio and concentrate more. I never drive out of the city, only in a 10 mile radius around home, and never on the highway. 2) When I go to the Dollar Store, I make sure I'm parked way on the fringes, so many senior citizens hang out there, there are always some parking lot accidents!

I'm 60, and have an excellent driving record in a region where driving is challenging to all.

However, I'm also in a dense suburb. Buses and taxis are almost useless, but malls are close by, and services such as Uber and Lyft are readily available. Most other errands can be performed online.

Environmentally speaking, the sooner I give up my license, the better. This gives more ecological wiggle-room for those who MUST continue driving.

Since I like to stay close to home at all times, an early and final stop to driving is ideal. But this is NOT for everybody. I would never urge anyone to stop, if it means hardship and unwanted isolation.

If you can still drive, then I very strongly suggest that you continue to do so as long as you're actually safe. I especially encourage people who live alone with no outside help to definitely continue driving but only if they're absolutely safe to do so.

For those who should no longer be driving, I strongly encourage you to get off the road and give up the keys before you kill yourself or someone else! If you know you shouldn't be driving but continue to drive anyway, you can blame yourself for any future accidents and damage you cause in that accident.

For those of you who know someone who shouldn't be driving, you can anonymously report the driver to the authorities by simply making an anonymous police report. There's a saying that if you see something, say something. If you know someone shouldn't be driving, it's up to you to open your mouth at very least even if you can do nothing else. Knowing someone is a dangerous driver and doing nothing makes you just as dangerous as that driver simply because you know but (chose) to say nothing. To those who say you can do nothing about the situation, yes you can! You have a mouth, and you can at least open it up and say something! Again, if you see or even know something, definitely use the mouth God gave you and speak up! Not doing so puts others at risk. It seems like every time we turn on the news, there's another dangerous driver who's been in an accident for some odd reason. The latest one I heard about on Facebook was about a car that skidded off the snow-covered road and up a cable connected to some kind of tower. The car was left standing on its bumper. That driver should've never been behind the wheel that day, they knew the road conditions and yet they chose to drive despite the dangerous conditions. I'm starting to wonder if maybe that driver should just give up driving if they have a history of accidents.

Alternatives should be offered to those who should get off the road and give up driving. Public transit can be expensive because it all adds up even if it happens to be cheap to ride for a day. It all adds up, but there are certain ones that will actually give discounts to the elderly and disabled, and if you get Social Security, you should definitely check into discounts on public transit. If your local transit offers discounts, definitely sign up but use it sparingly if you're on a fixed income and a tight budget

Families can really get put through the wringer. Better alternatives to driving would take a huge amount of pressure off. Not everybody has a retired relative just itching to drive them around!

Actually, I enjoy driving a great deal. But after this ... if I ever get to the point where my chauffeuring skills are no longer required, I plan to give up my license immediately, even if I'm still a good driver. If my skills deteriorate before that, I fervently hope I'll be able to recognize it, and stop. If not, I plan to give up the license the first time someone ... anyone ... suggests I might want to consider it.

Ibeenscammed,

Thanks for sharing! My foster dad was another one who voluntarily gave up driving, but not everyone does that.

I had an elderly friend who was going blind, but I don't know if that may have been why he couldn't drive anymore, (but it may have been). Not everyone needs to be off the road, but those who do need to give up the keys to protect those who can still drive. I alerted everyone I know in my contacts about this thread and the dilemma behind it hoping raised awareness will help save at least those lives. I'm also glad for social media because hopefully people will start talking, there are unsafe drivers everywhere, it's only a matter of finding them and getting them all off the road.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there are more people voluntarily giving up the keys since speed limits everywhere are increasing into the 70s and above in other areas. I think the speed limits anyway should be back down to 45 or 50 because higher speed limits increase accident risk, which is why my foster dad voluntarily gave up driving. He explained that the speed limits were just too high for his old car which was never built for the higher speed limits. According to him, back in the day of the Packard, speed limits must've been much lower back then. Dad said when they increased the speed limits and people started driving carelessly, he just gave up driving altogether but still maintained his license as identification to use wherever identification is needed

I will never forget the day I made the voluntary decision to give up driving. Not one other person decided for me nor gave me the idea. I decided entirely on my own many years ago. I walked into the DMV and told them I did not want to drive anymore nor did I want to have a driver's license. The people behind the counter looked at me like I was completely out of my mind. I was 30 years old and not at all handicapped. But they took it and i have not regretted the decision.

A few years ago the idiots in modern science finally figured out what we all knew all along. A portion of the population absolutely cannot tell their right from their left. Now why did it take them so long to figure that one out? I have known that by instinct for decades. Only I have a very bad case of it. Meaning driving isn't impossible (I passed the driving test fine) but it's too darned scary. Also, I am best off not doing certain jobs involving spatial tasks (such as waitressing, shelving stuff, or bagging groceries). I have met other people who were equally right-left confused and I know it sure isn't a death sentence, as I am good enough at plenty of other things. I've been happily car-free for decades.

I really wish all those lousy drivers on the road of any age do us a favor and please, please recognize that perhaps try something else instead of driving. Do what I did. Work hard at something else, and let the bus driver or cab driver or your pal wow you with their driving. Be a bike riding star, and go shock the DMV people by turning in your selfie.

And if you want to bring law enforcement down on me personally, please-please-please go ahead! It may actually be helpful.

Yes, I'm THAT frustrated with the situation.

Without going into my personal geography ... your friends and loved ones are not in danger from me or mine.

I'm doing all I can do, and am seeking help from other relatives -- which is forthcoming, but not right this minute. Any messing with the car will land me in prison, in which case FIL will keep on driving, with no one to slow him down. And my husband ends up stranded.

Confounded, Yes, as a fellow driver, I am indeed very concerned! I have a very dearly beloved foster family living in Ohio and I just found out very recently I have a half-sister that I didn't even know about who happens to be living in Texas! I sure don't want someone I know coming into contact with this or any other dangerous driver and possibly being hurt or worse yet, killed. In fact, I think I'm going to alert those I care about to this thread, one of my loved ones in particular happens to be married to a lawyer and has some very serious leverage in the community

Thank you, Noor75! ... Situations are different, indeed. Actually, the fact that I'm an in-law of looooong standing whose husband (their son) was forced to give up driving early is my sole "advantage." It's just not sufficient on its own for quick action. All siblings-in-law are on board, just far away geographically ... for now.

I also get you on "luck." Such classic solutions as sabotage and subterfuge only work after dementias have reached a certain level. And when a competent spouse is present, but not on board - however understandable that is - it's a stalemate.

All in all, I guess we're in a not-so-bad space. But that doesn't make it good.

@Confounded - Yes, all situations are different. I was just offering my experience and thoughts of what I went through hoping someone might benefit. I know it's different when the folks are your in-laws and not your parents. Also, MIL will naturally defer to her husband and that's to be expected, I think especially from that particular generation. I was also 'lucky' in the sense that my Dad had already passed (as he'd have certainly stood with Mom against me with this). I'm also an only child, so no siblings to battle with or have to win-over, etc. Anyway, good luck and hang in there.

GodsAnointed ... you are so right! This is MY Total Responsibility!

Legally, however, my hands are tied. At the moment. I'm trying to work with my MIL and to build Yet Another case to bring before the proper channels - again. One of my SILs is moving over here, and we plan to work together, as well.

I can see my question has caused you pain, and I deeply regret that.

I'll never be able to stress enough the importance of getting a dangerous driver off the road before they hurt or kill themselves or someone else. It's very selfish to know what's going on and still yet allow it to go on anyway. I only wish I knew where this was going on or I'd say something to the proper channels myself

In cases of injury, that HMO typically pulls patients aside to ask if the injury resulted in abuse, and whether the patient feels threatened in any way. Otherwise, the ER does *not* concern itself with anybody's driving ability, except for ... maybe ... the patient's, if the patient was the driver, or ... maybe ... in case of DUI.

Police were not involved at all in this accident. I did make note of the ambulance drivers, and I recognized one of them, but he rushed off (probably for another call) as I began to approach.

My biggest roadblock is that my MIL will not - not yet, anyway - take *any* overt action. She is quite competent, so that (seems to) limit what I can do, beyond continuing to share my observations, offer to drive, and make sure I'm available to drive.

Confounded, When I mentioned that the ER should have been asking questions about your MILs injury, I didn't mean to imply that it was not an accident. My point is that the ER should have documented what happened, since they should be able to prove that they outruled abuse. Therefore, they should have documentation indicating that his driving skill was questionable. I suggest you have your MIL get that info and you take it to the DMV and express your concern that he is getting worse all the time and needs to be re-evaluated. If he has fender-benders, your MIL needs to try to get a police report. If you keep pestering the BMV with requests to re-test him, especially if you have third-party documentation, like ER report or police reports, maybe the DMV will step up and take official action, which it sounds like he might accept. Perhaps you could include photos of damages to his vehicle.

My problem (sorry excuse?) is that my MIL is reluctant to do anything, though she's slowly coming around. She is very sharp. I can't simply Do Things to *their* car without her informed consent. (And anyway, she needs the car.)

Also, while FIL is not sharp, he still cannot be tricked in that way.

Which yes, I know, does not relieve me of *any* responsibility when something goes wrong.