I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
So they go steal what they want. Why don't they have the $ otherwise . a whole host of reasons .. can't keep a job, have a drug or gambling, alcohol addiction and spend what $ they do have satisfying that addiction ..
But to have $ .. in hand .. in the bank . in your wallet, and go steal .. why? That makes no sense to a rational person. Yet .. that's what he was (if we take it at face value) was quite content to happen .. yep .. my bank account (or my wallet) still has that precious $30 or whatever amount it was . and that's fine by me.
May be an unpopular opinion . but I tend to believe the version of events as told .. still struggle to wrap my brain around the why of it all .. DD didn't grow up in a HH where that kinda behavior was modeled at all, .. we don't take what isn't ours .. and she's known that since she was little.
But .. I try to wrap my brain around what it must feel like .. if the story I'm told is true . .what must that be like, .. to every day . whether what you want is a new dress, . or it's a necessity such as diapers . or whatever . what must that feel like, to have no access to be able to do it on your own . absent begging/arguing, with the guy that holds the purse strings . and whether he will or won't . oblige. What does that do to a person .. in the long run?
I mean that whole story of my bday dinner, and that having been brought out into the light yesterday for discussion with my DH present . and her having brought forth as part of that discussion "you let me go beg my mom for more $ . after we'd all gone out to eat, . you let me sweat it out, . knowing we now couldn't pay our light bill . and that I'd have to go beg $ off of mom .. you let that happen . even telling me . *it's all your fault . youre the one that insisted we join them for dinner, we could've stayed home and not gone . it's your fault* .. all in an attempt at pushing me to go beg for $ .. all while you had a wallet stacked with almost $2k in cash .. you let me do that .. "
That says volumes. And that was right in front of DH . that dialogue . so . while I had always wondered if the two of them were in on that one ... "yea i know we'll go beg money off mom . she doesn't want her g'kids sitting in the dark, no electricity . she'll hand me money . yea that's what we'll do" . . I'd always wondered if that was the two of them working us .. but no .. he had to sit there yesterday with that in the light for discussion . and his fault in it all, . and face that.
So yea, that's clearly one delineation of many we're told . .where there was ready cash to handle what's the dilemma but not only did he not tell her had cash . he let her sweat it out and go begging to a mom . married to the guy that just paid him all that cash . so he could hang onto his precious cash and not anyone the wiser, . and not to mention then also blame her .. "we didn't have to go . it's all your fault, you're the one that insisted we join them".
What happens to a person in that predicament .. where the party who holds the purse strings .. repeatedly denies having any $ to satisfy wants/needs .. consistently and denies the other access to it .. for true need . not to mention occasional wants.
Obviously they have dollars .. there is an atty on board . that is viewable via the website for the local courthouse .. they didn't ask us to pay that.
So one can only deduce from that, . that's been at issue pervasive in all this . there is cash on hand to pay for such . but in his broken brain . it makes more sense to steal it .. than to part with the cash . and encourage same in her, and her broken brain that somehow added up .. it wouldn't in mine.
I also can’t help but wonder if your DD isn’t stealing because she doesn’t have the privilege of buying things whenever she wants because her husband is controlling. But then again some of her other behaviors indicate that perhaps.....it’s related to substance abuse.
I mean .. if anyone looked at me, husband or otherwise and suggested "let's steal", .. I'd look at them like they have 3 heads . and the fact she thought that any option at all, . is troubling to say the least. The fact he then also .. at some point in all this, with her, in Walmart for groceries and suggests . as they go along filling the cart . "hey can you take that, without paying for it, what about this .. " .. him with dollars in the bank acct, . dollars in his wallet to pay for it.
I don't know, but I don't think that was her MO. I think her MO was to ask for the $ she was prohibited from having access to. That was her first approach . and finding repeated brick walls in that request .. and denial of same, . stealing became the better option ..
Why? Why would it not make better sense TO HER .. to get thee into a professional setting to sort thru what's this about for him . the fact he purposely go open bank accts., absent her name . and set up a scenario where she now has to ask (beg/plead) .. for any $ needed .. and then deny her that money. Why?
Needs examining how that made any sense to her, along the way ..
Sounds exactly like a scenario of drug addicts .. gee we still function, work for a living and get a paycheck . but hey .. gotta use that paycheck for the fixes I need for my drug habit . .and then .. wow . now what ..??.. no dollar to feed my kids .. guess I'll steal food at the store .. no dollars for new clothes, guess I'll steal them.
Sounds precisely like what goes on when you see a druggie in operation and how they function.
To be taken at face value as to what I'm told anyway . one is told . there is money . he has money in his wallet, money in the bank ... but bank acct with her name not on it, .. having to beg/plead/argue . for every dime .. and .. stealing became the option rather than argue/beg/plead with him. That's the face value of what is told as the story.
I tend to believe that version of events, .or we'd of been asked to pay the freight for an atty .. and we were not asked, he did that. Court records online .. (I've looked) reveal there is a charge of shoplifting it exists . it's there to view, court date pending . and there is an atty assigned.
So it's not that there is some trumped up working of us . and hey we'll hit them up for atty fees . they'll pay that .. and there isn't even any basis for a need for an atty . the charge . .misdemeanor of theft, . it's there, for the whole world to see, . as is the atty involved.
So, I tend to believe that version of how the story gets told. BUT .. what in her, makes her think that a viable option . "go steal" .. why not ADDRESS the dam problem .. that's not right .. no access at all, to $'s to satisfy the needs/wants . unless argument . and even then, lose the argument .. what ever made her think, .. Ok, . well . I'll just steal, that'll solve it.
That's not the action of a rational person. Yea, I want a 5 carrot diamond ring, but I'm not about to go steal one.
What in her, had her take the path of least resistance and a dangerous one at that, .. what in her, made her think that leaving her kids in the car unattended was the thing to do.
Why does it make sense in anybody's world . that .. "let's see my bank account is gonna be $30 less if I agree she can go buy that dress .. nah .. nope .. gonna tell her no .. nope . .. ". And then that $30 that remains is part of your bank balance, or your wallet's contents . but the moral issue of taking things that don't belong to you .. somehow makes better sense, all while you sit cozy and warm with that $30 still in your possession.
Generally, it's been my knowledge that people steal .. food or whatever they steal, because they don't otherwise have the $ .. and so
I also am a person who wonders why about issues. Fortunately I generally can answer them myself. There is no justification for the behavior of SIL There are certainly personality traits that are disgusting. Perhaps they can be worked out or at the very least improved.
I can't totally condone all the actions of DD but I can understand that she is a victim in certain areas. Years of being treated poorly by SIL can have influenced her thought process.
I have a friend who was abused physically by her mother. Her husband and daughter abuse her emotionally. She admits this and will discuss it but has never been able to stop it so it continues. I cut her alot of slack as a friend because I know this. I will hope that what has been the norm in your daughter's life will change going forward. It is possible and you and DH have done alot to start the process. I realize they have to do the hard work. As the employer I do believe you both were warranted in getting involved.
Being diagnosed as bi-polar AND prescribed medication after ONE visit with a new doctor ?!!
Somethings not right there.
It’s totally understandable but I’m afraid it will only lead to more chit splatter down the road.
First - as far as the shoplifting goes. You make it sound like DD was stealing bread and milk to feed her starving children. No - she was caught stealing dresses. Unless they were all wearing rags - dresses just don’t qualify as a need. At least to me they don’t.
Second - You say that this incident was an out of the blue, chit hit the fan surpise. Yet - several months ago DD was acting in a way that was causing you real concern - dumping the kids off on you so she could go home and play dress up Kardashian style and posting selfie’s. And, the excessive drinking... don’t forget that. All the while assuring you that she would take care of it in her own way. Her own way and time, perhaps?
Yes. SIL has been a real turd. BUT DD is a grown adult, brought up to know right from wrong. I agree that there are very important “Why?” in all of this - but not all of them need to be asked of SIL. Sure - it’s easy for DD to say it’s all from SIL controlling, gaslighting and manipulating but WHY did she respond in the manner that she did. Lots of folks do without - hungry and barely getting by - lots of folks have mean, abusive and controlling spouses - yet they don’t respond by drinking too much booze and stealing dresses from Kohl’s and Target. WHY did she?
Just sayin’ - as usual. Not intending to be a big, judgmental b!tch here... just hoping to encourage you to keep an open mind and to put down the paintbrush that seems to be covered in white paint.
I'm with others who also wonder about possible alcohol/drug abuse being a factor, for one or maybe both...does he (SIL) want to make sure money is really being used for diapers...that type of thing...or make sure he himself has money to support a habit? Maybe at some point DH could ask him 'why' as to some of the things he has done and just see what his answer is, not that it will necessarily be the truth, but just to gauge the response.
Time will bear it all out...I'm sorry you are dealing with this on top of everything else. As a parent, I know it's hard not to worry.
In other words, you can have insight into where your behavior comes from, but unless you work at changing the behaviors that you've laid down in patterns over the years, your life won't change.
Also, behavior patterns tend to be "over-determined". There's not ONE thing that causes a person to turn out the way they do. There's a dance of in-born temperament, early experience, "perceived narcissistic wounds" and a host of sometimes very random events that have an impact upon the grown-up that emerges.
So, while "why" is an interesting thing to ponder, there really isn't going to be an "answer" that is going to be satisfying.
where son in law was raised, by bio mom and stepdad here locally. But make no mistake about it, the stepdad cares about the mom .. deeply . and is kind and generous with the mom . and loving .. but . that's where the stepdad's allegiance begins and ends .. no interest ever in doing things with the son .. thru the years ..
So the stories go .. the only real male role model he had as part of his life was his maternal g'pa (lived local, now deceased). Yes that g'pa took him fishing . took him on vacations with the g'ma . to go see family .. took him to play golf . worked in the yard with him . spent time with him .. and enjoyed him and he likewise .. but .. the stepdad not so much .. and certainly not bio dad ..
Would be really interesting to be the psycho therapist that dials in on these things to make zero in on ... what makes you who you are, . why does it make better sense to you that your wife be so controlled that you would deny her $ too go buy diapers and have her go take from her parents . the things they need, all while you have a pocket full of cash and could do so .. but somehow it makes better sense in your warped brain to have the dollars in your bank acct, or your wallet than it does to hand over the money to satisfy the needs of your children. What makes you who you are, that somehow it makes sense in you warped brain that you walk thru walmart with her, encouraging her of items to steal . and yet . when she gets caught . use that as further *control* to pull the purse strings even tighter than they already were ..
What makes you who you are, that's okay with you . that your wife be stealing to begin with .. and all while you have the dollars to satisfy what is needed to begin with .. it's not like you're destitute and this is your only option . what is it in your warped brain that this all .. somehow to you . looks like the better avenue.
What makes you who you are, that you are fortunate enough to have employment by your wife's father, who has been nothing but kind and giving to you thru the years .. making sure you make more $ than you'd make elsewhere and you know that . you left his employ for a minute . thinking the grass is greener, and found out it wasn't and came begging for your job back . and got it . and .. no awareness on your part that he's not the d*ck you claim him to be . in fact, . he pays you better than you'd make if you left his employ . you get paid when there's no work, . he's kind enough to have extended you that .. and bonuses at times . not to mention the hundreds of projects he's helped you with as to where you live in various homes you've lived in . and working under the hood of your autos thru the years . but yet you'd deem him a d*ck and out to screw you . what makes you are that there is seemingly no awareness on your part, as to any gratitude for the kindness and generosity extended by this boss who happens to be your father in law.
What makes you who you are, that if that's what you truly believe to be the case, then you wouldn't leave that setting as your employment and go where you feel there is a more fair shake as to how you get treated ..
What makes you who you are, that you would so many times create so much derision . and consternation and yet throw your wife to the wolves as the one to stand up and handle it . who are you a man or a mouse .. stand up .. speak for yourself.
Would be interesting to dive thru all that, and sort out . who are you and why.
But . it's interesting to me to look at some of the aspects of that whole scenario from the prism of what I know about the guy.
I don't know, I'm not a psycho therapist .. but ..
The guy has a bio dad . who is big man on campus so they say .. he's a cop in small town USA . and lives in another state. Big weight lifter .. sculpted body builder .. and .. I don't honestly how how much of a "dad" that guy really was to his son S. I know he went to this other state to visit stay with his dad . holidays . summers ...
His dad .. is a real taker .. it would seem.
He's a cop in small town USA . and so you know it's not his salary buying all the accouterments he has as to his playboy life. His long time live in g'friend (now his wife as of about 2 years ago) . she makes good $ at her job but maybe comes from $ herself, . and so she is the one that buys all the toys and all the expensive vacations they seem to go on . every month ...
The dad ... he has all the toys . a brand new .. all the bells and whistles every year big pickup truck, .. motorcycles, jet ski's .. a boat .. you name it, he has all the toys . and every time you turn around, they are gone again . to Costa Rica for vacation, to Cozumel . to Cancun . some tropical paradise somewhere ..
It's interesting to me to look at it from the prism .. to son in law, .. to his way of thinking and operating . to him . . does having all the $ in the bank (cuz he sure isn't spending it . he's not out buying himself toys .. they couldn't afford to live the life his dad lives . .even if he did spend the money he hoardes and hangs onto) .. but to him ... does he somehow .. in some sick twisted way ... strive to be like his dad .. someone he readily admits was no dad to him ... does he somehow wish to be like his dad .. and have all the $ to do the things his dad gets to do .. and all the toys and expensive vacations .. and so forth . and so to him . having $ in the bank . .all the while you deny your wife the $ to go get diaper wipes . does that somehow . to him .. make sense.
It doesn't to me, ... and more to the point, when he readily admits the guy was no dad figure . never was. Could care less about him .. thru the years . other than what next fun they could go get into .. "let's go boating . we'll go water skiing . let's go to the ski slopes .. we'll go ski for the day ... let's go hiking .. let's go here go there" .. but that was a disney dad ..he only saw him on holidays and summer vacations.
A dad who .. so the story goes .. who knows (the son in law is such a liar, it's hard to know where the truth begins with him or if it does) .. in high school .. son in law on the football team . .and his dad shipping him some of the illegal steroids he himself was utilizing to build that sculpted body . (who does that .. I mean send your kid .. illegal steroids .. as harmful as those are, really) .. but .. I guess him now proud of his son . for being on the football team and wanting him to build himself a sculpted body like he has . and so steroids sent to him .. illegal steroids . and yes, he's a dam cop . and doing that . but not only that. When the son in law quit football ... the dad didn't speak to him for a year, . he was so upset with him that he'd quit football, that he didn't speak to him at all, wouldn't .. for a year's time.
Is some of this born from a want for his dad . the almighty cop .. with the sculpted body . and the toys out the wazoo .and the expensive wonderful vacations and life of .. a playboy in a sense .. is some of this all born in the rooted cause that he wishes for acceptance from a dad .. he never got.
I don't know, but it does puzzle me.
Yes he had a stepdad here . the mom remarried . when he was maybe 8 or 9 years old . and now a stepdad in the picture and that's
who does that ..???... what reality is he living in. And when it gets pointed out as was the case yesterday no forthcoming as to "why" . only a hang of the head and apologies and a promise to do better. who does that? Why?
Who .. who stands on their moral high ground all sanctimonious . when .. she finally gets caught stealing . .and all the while he knew it .. and then takes that as yet more opportunity to operate from a stance of control .. and manipulate further, tying those purse strings tighter . why? Why not be more humble and act with more humility in the fact you knew all along what was going on . .. but no . you take the moral high ground and stand back pointing fingers at her .. who does that, why?
Who denies their kids . a dollar store bag of easter eggs to hunt on the premise .. "I'm already paying out the nose for atty fees and court costs . don't ask me for a dime DD". Who does that, .. ??... he knew all along . the crack she could get her azz in . yet takes that as an approach. Why?
The piece, . if I were in on this .. but don't really wish to be . had I been sitting there, with this dialogue ongoing . I would've brought forth two points to him . that will be addressed and dealt with because I WILL SEE TO IT .. outside of your involvement .. I will make the phone call myself, and you will be accountable ..
1) So let me get this straight son in law, .. it's okay with you that your folks think of your wife as bat chit nutz . and a thief .. that gets caught stealing .. and them no more the wiser you were in on it too . that's okay with you .. that gets corrected, right here and now .. because I .. take it to the bank . .will make certain they know there is a complete other side to this story . and that one entails an environment you created in holding the purse strings so tight that to her, it looked more appealing to steal . than it did to fight with you . they will know that, and they'll also know when I finish . that you were in on it, all along . and a willing participant ..
2) This business that you are too much of a coward . and allow the scenario to continue wherein your mom routinely comes to get the 6 yo . and leave the twins out . and even in spite of all the dialogue your wife has had on that topic or says she has . with them... and yet you won't step up to the plate and do so yourself, because you're a chicken chit .. apparently .. I don't know what it is that you're running from as to your mom . what's she gonna do turn you over her lap and spank you . but that too, stops right now ... I will make them aware . you obviously lack the fortitude to do so .. as DD tells me . you won't go there, feel it's a topic that can't be raised and so fine by you to go make herself the bad guy in that discussion with them ... but you won't face it yourself, that too . stops right now .. I will make them aware myself . I will phone them .. this hiding behind DD and all your wickedness and cowardly chicken chit .. is gonna stop .. there will be accountability ..
But none of that got tabled, I wasn't there ..
In the end, the ownership of the above and how it gets sorted thru . has to be on them . if they do or don't address any of it, and dig in to change it . not on me ... if they don't have any "want" to dig deep and sort it and unpack it all, and work thru it, then what's the point in my doing so. So ..
But .. yea .. it did get put on the table, a lot of it, most of it . in DH forthcoming to her husband that he knows everything . and .. puzzles me why there was no "why" in it all .. but . there wasn't.
In the end, just some seeming remorse .. and apologies and promises (empty?) to do better.
Time, that's all I know . time.
Unfortunately that's all there is .. "time" to see if improvement comes . .that's all there is.
I can't . don't want to do it, . jump in and dig down on that which the two of them need to own and work thru .. all I can do is encourage they continue on that path . and with the help of professional therapists to dig down and work thru some of it .. all of it . and I will do that, encourage that be a part of it .. but I don't want the nitty gritty dirty work of sticking my hands in the mess of it all .. go seek professional help both of you.
The only thing I can say is this .. for a long long time in their married life . when I tell you she didn't complain .. if there were things off kilter there in their world, . what I knew or thought I knew was only supposition .. on my part, . because she wasn't ever .. in the 11 years they'e been married, one to come crying to momma .. "he's this . he's that .. he won't do this he won't do that" .. she kept their world private .. and so I didn't know. I had suspicions yes .. but .. it wasn't ever anything divulged out loud on her part. Fine ...
The O.N.L.Y. thing I've ever been brought on the page as to the goings on there, has been since chit hit the fan in a misdemeanor charge of theft at Target . then . yes ... the flood gates opened and spillage comes forth of what their world looks like.
If she's to be believed . her words .. when asked why she even began talking and telling things ... "I felt so gut punched by him . .. I really did ... I mean he knew, he was a part of it, the stealing . he knew that was going on ... and for him to stand on his moral high ground once that got on the radar, and act the way he did and use it as an even tighter means of control .. no I'm not giving you a dime, don't ask me . I'm paying court/atty fees for you . don't ask me for a dime" . for him to take that approach . all the while he KNEW . he was a part of it, . at least partially .. and for him to now do that, .. I felt so gut punched .. I really did .. it hurt"
So .. when I tell you . I didn't know .. I had suspicions . you bet I did . but I walk a tight line of staying out of that which nobody has made my biz . and since she spent years . of that marriage . not coming crying to mommy and daddy .. of the goings on there, it was just that . unanswered suspicions .. and that's all I had.
In some sense . whatever agreement (sick as it may be) . twisted as it may be . that one doesn't go to "talk" outside that home as to the goings on .. if there ever was agreement between the two ... it created a vacuum of sorts . .where one can do and say and act in any manner they wish . and no one is the wiser ..
That vacuum busted wide open upon her . .charge of theft, at the Target store, and she was .. I guess ..???... no longer willing to operate in complete secrecy .. ???... that's all I can say .. I don't know.
There are things I'd like to, even still dial down on, but .. that has to be on them . and in a professional setting and hopefully a "want' on their parts to do so .. but .. "why".
WHY .. why would anyone even want to act in the manipulative lying ways and controlling ways . and say and do the horrible things he's been a part of . why .. I mean who walks thru the walmart grocery encouraging their wife to steal . all so those dollars remain in your bank account . who does that, . why ...?? ... why?
Who does the things he's done . in the awful things he's had to say to his wife about what is his boss (her dad) . all the while, seemingly no awareness and gratitude for the kindness extended to him thru the years ... by his boss . and his boss's wife ... who are her parents ... no awareness on his part . just gripe about that boss . and he's out to screw me . and he's a d*ck .. and so on .. who .. who does that . who walks thru life with no awareness at all, .. why ..??.... of the many many things we've done for them .. and no absolutely no gratitude . who . .why? who
about the time DH was walking in the door here, . me knowledgeable there had been a sit down session over there and a come to Jesus meeting . and wanting to talk to DH to get the scoop.. my phone rang.. her husband calling me.
I answered it, to have him apologize for the anguish and worry he has caused me, and vow to do better .. and be a better person . and I answered that about like you'd imagine . "talk is cheap S ... actions . wanna see actions ... don't put my daughter in an environment like you've created for her .. and expect that's gonna be ok . it's not .. won't ever be .. and action . I want to see action . words are cheap .. " to his response, "you will, you will see improvement I promise you that" .. to my response "and this biz that she can't ever come see her family that you're not on her heels, why create an environment you won't let her be alone with her family for fear what she might divulge of what goes on in that world over there, don't do that .. ". To his counter "yes I know, I've been a real chit and I have a lot to improve on and you will see, I'll do it"
Words are cheap ..
that didn't seemingly get any airplay ... would've if I'd of been a part of all this ...
But . not mine to dig in on .. I can only hope they do so .. .or that he has a "want" to learn that ... but I don't know the answer to that ..
t like all this took place, . at work, DH and son in law . and then ... when they arrived at son in law's home .. DH went in . and the kids playing in the b'yard, there was a sit down session . DH/DD/son in law, . while the kids played and all of this aired ... and him being held feet to the fire, as to his ways . and his lies/his manipulation and control, etc etc ... DD herself chiming in .. on the various points in it all ... and him .. just hanging his head .. and a "I'm sorry .. I'm a real piece of chit and I gotta do better" . but no "why" ..
He didn't ever in any of this dialogue that went on .. as I've so often experienced in him . duck and dodge and point fingers and lie .. and that shocks me ... I've dealt with him myself, and he is always always always . one to duck and dodge and deny and lie .. and more to the point if one tries to get to the skinny on something and he can somehow lie and blame the party not there to hold his feet to the fire in accountability (his wife) .. easy to point fingers and tell you "no .. here's what hapened .. " and some diatribe that in the end, you think . "well she just misread all that" . and you never get to the bottom of it .. but he didn't do any of that in the dialogue ongoing there .. and that shocks me.
As DH put it, when I expressed that to him, his words: "He was caught .. dead to rights ... he had no defense . he could . like I told him handle this one of two ways .blow this thing to smithereens and duck and dodge and lie .. but he knew, .. DD has talked, told us .. and he knew .. I can and WILL have every intention of going straight to her .. and she will hold him accountable, he was caught and he knew it .. no vacuum here to operate in . you're caught"
I'll say it again though .. "where's the why in all this"
But anyway ... I was glad to know .. it came out in discussion there . this whole piece back on my bday . wherein she'd called me for more money . and him sitting with $2k in his wallet that he let her go beg us for more $ ...
I'd always wondered . was that the both of them working us ... were they both in on that ..
Nope that came out in discussion there, and her pointing that out . "you let me go beg my parents . my parents who have been nothing but kind and generous to both of us . always .. you let me go beg them for more money S . even saying to me, it's all my fault .. that we didn't HAVE TO attend your mother's bday .. that was your deal DD . you're the one that wanted to do that, we didn't have to do that .. we could've stayed home . it's all your fault we can't pay our light bill now . you LET me go begging my mom for $ all the while you had $2k in your wallet, telling me you didn't have any money . you are a liar .. and you let me go do that to parents who have been nothing but kind to both of us"
I was glad to hear that got some airplay so now I know ... that one at least, was not her in on it, . and the both of them working an angle to take/take/take .. and take some more. No that was him .. and his crooked ways .. only him.
So so many points covered in it all . between the discussion DH and he had, but then even further, when DH went inside, and the sit down was between DH/son in law, and DD. So many . all of them really . each one, point for point, no stone left unturned it sounds like.
Every dam one of the points, covered . if it's been hanging out there as a point of contention in all this, it got put on the table.
And in the end, .. all he did was hang his head . and apologize and .. admit what a "chit" he has been .. and vow to do better . never any "well let me tell you why I did the things I did" .. never any of that .. and that piece I'd sure like to have some clarity on.
He is employed by the goodness of DH yet he has control of all the money. Is he ever questioned about why his parents only allow the 6 year old to visit? I get not wanting someone with a child who doesn't want to be but do they name a specific reason for that. It is in effect so dysfunctional. He seems to be the ultimate male chauvinist. I hope DD gets some help. There are just so many issues here that need remedied. I know my stating that is futile. I am sorry Dorker that your plate runneth over with spoiled food.
"what have I done, you seem so irritated w/me these days .. how can I fix it if I don't know what I've done . and Dorker too . anytime I'm around her, she seems so aloof and distant . it seems like you guys are irritated w/me and I don't know what I've done wrong .. "
((I'm sorry but how dam dense is this guy .. you can bet that I have enough insight that if I've been a horrible bully to DH for instance, and find that .. along the way some one related to him begins to treat me with maybe some question and irritation .. I'm gonna begin to question if maybe DH has spilled the beans and told that person .. gee, Dorker has been a real chit azz lately . and does this and that .. how dense is this guy that it doesn't dawn on him .. gee, I have been a real chit . surely DD didn't tell her family .. surely she's kept it quiet what a chit I am, .. no real insight apparently . and lack of much forethought to the fact that we aren't .. any of us . an island unto ourselves and do talk .. )))
But goes to speak to what I said all along as to their situation .. DD .. hasn't been one to share the inner workings of their world .. for a long long time I had suspicions that things aren't on the up and up as to how things work in her world . but her complaining . no .. she didn't ... for many years ... she kept their world . private . for most of their married life . and I guess in that vacuum . he was able to be pretty assured that what goes on in their world is kept under their roof .. so .. maybe he thought status quo ... but what he didn't know was that . status quo was no longer the case, .. DH knew .. everything . as do I.
DH telling him that he knows everything .. and prefacing any further conversation with S .. along the lines of "how you handle all this . is gonna be up to you . you can blow up and retaliate against your wife for sharing some things she needed to talk about .. and wreck your world . because let me tell you . it will ... wreck your world if you retaliate against my daughter .. I won't stand for it, .. not for a minute .. so .. it's up to you how you handle this . you can take this like a man . and you can listen . and be accountable to your wrongs .. and humble yourself .. and vow to correct things . or you can blow up and take it out on your wife .. who is in the end . my daughter . before she was your wife, before you were an employee here ... and always will be . up to you how you wanna deal with this"
And with that, DH went point for point, telling him all he knows of his evil ways .. point for point for point and then some ..
I, in fact, was surprised that DH remembered and covered ALL the finite points in it all .. he really did .... accd'g to what I'm told of what took place.
Telling him ... 'you holding the purse strings so tight . that to her, stealing was more appealing than it was to have to come to you . what is that about S ... tell me who appointed you to be the king of the world . and one doesn't get doled out a dime to their name unless the fight with you .. who do you think you are, you are to be humble and act with grace . and mercy . you aren't some king .. that lords dollars against her .. '
He went point for point for point .. pointing out to him . all "ALL" of the various infractions thru the whole thing . the fact he'd be party to stealing .. and theft . and then stand on his moral high ground ..
ALL OF IT
Point for point for point.
S did not get defensive and argumentative and duck and dodge and lie and point fingers .. essentially . he hung his head .. and apologized .. and vowed to do better. What I am not satisfied with is the *why* piece of all this ... doesn't seem there was any dialogue on that aspect. In the end, not mine to dig down on, .. but I would hope that in him . there is some yearning to try to learn within himself . as to why he would act, and say/do the things he did .. so he can learn better strategies ... but no . doesn't sound like that got any
It is tough to be the sole support of a household when you're not that bright, are employed by your wife's family and fear that she could get you fired by running to daddy and mommy.
These two both have some growing up to do.
5% of household income for him & 5% to her to spend how they like *no questions*. Or an agreed set amount - transfed directly into individual separate spending accounts - so they never see each others & can never argue about it.
My marriage would not survive if he told me all the $ he spent on phone & car accessories & he has no idea what a good mascara or eyelash tint costs (nor does he ever need to).
He gaslights, lies and manipulates?
He needs things explained to him over and over until he comprehends?
It doesn't seem to me that those two descriptions of Sonny Boy line up with each other.
She indicates that yes, on Friday when she returns to that psych appt she had to reschedule .. she has every intention of digging in on the "why hasn't the therapy/counseling group here, returned my calls, .. when/how do I get on the list for initiating some counseling".
So, yes, .. good . yes, do that.
She covered point for point the many things they've sat up late at night, after the kids have gone to bed .. and covered, . and her, ... saying repeatedly how much patience it's taking as one explains and re-explains and over and over, for him to get it . .. w/each point along the way .. and some pushback on his part, and then negotiating . and so forth .. I know of what she speaks . having dealt with him myself . he doesn't "get it" readily.
I was pretty elated to hear she's found enough footing and voice, to begin to dig in on some topics and address them and said so .. all while encouraging that she not let that counseling piece fall off the cliff.
Listening to her, as she describes trying to get him to "get the point" as they cover the many varied aspects that need attention ... I didn't say it to her, but I thought to myself, 'No dam wonder you got to where you didn't fight anymore, .. it's exhausting having to explain and re-explain and then some, . like you're dealing with a kindergartner, to get them to "understand/comprehend/process" what is being talked about, that would exhaust me .. I'd probably throw in the towel and lose my footing and any ability to have a voice in what displeases me.
But anyway . this between she and I, was about a 1 hour long conversation . and she imparting . a lot of the points that have been covered as to all that's wrong in their world, . and what she sees that she wants changed . and how/why, on and on. Good.
So .. I was on with my day ...
And then later, another phone call from DD: "Hey .. apparently dad spilled the beans on S (her husband) . do you know what dad might've said to him?"
Me: No, I don't . first I've heard . what makes you think your dad spilled the beans"
DD: "S called me, said we have to talk . that they are on their way in from work, . and he wants to sit down w/me, ... he didn't sound mad .. I mean I would've' thought if dad has lowered the boom on him . he'd of been all frantic and beside himself . and furious that I've talked to ya'll .. but he didn't sound mad . just said that we have some things to talk about when they get in . and they're on the way".
Me: "No . hmm ... I didn't know that, .. all I know is that your dad and myself . have had a really really incredibly hard time knowing what we know about your situation and yet being in his proximity and not lowering the boom . but that we both want to . if we can .. let you handle it .. you and the pros .. if you'll ever get it there .. that's been our approach .. acting with our hands tied behind our backs . so no .. I'm not aware that he opened any can of worms and spilled the beans on it all"
DD: "Well I guess I'll find out soon enough . they're on the way in from work, .. so I'll find out .. wish dad hadn't done that .. and let me handle it".
So . that story ended up having played out about like this.
Apparently .. and I was aware of this part, .. S works at DH's elbow . all day every day .. they are together . working ... it has been incredibly, monumentally difficult for DH to have him right at his elbow and not unleash on him .. terribly difficult .. and each of those days .. it's been apparent there is tension .. in the fact that S has asked of DH along the way as the days have waned, . .why is it that DH seems irritated w/him .. I guess S sensing that .. and DH thus far . ignoring that question and tossing it aside, .. but yesterday when asked again .. as has been the case all along the way and being asked that by S .. this time, DH decided to spill the beans .. and so he did just that.
DH saying that to open .. to answer S's query .. of "why . what have I done
On the DD front ...
Color me absolutely shocked and knocked back on my heels completely.
First and foremost, DD called me yesterday (rarely happens unless kid cov'g is needed, though these days .. that ... she is hearing "no" more often than she used to, on purpose on my part). But anywho .. DD phoned me yesterday .. I guess a quiet moment ... kids napping (she usually lays down with the kids and falls asleep herself, .. so .. that isn't generally a time that she has some "me" time to make phone calls, or whatever else some might do).
She wanted to "catch up" since we hadn't had a chance to have two words ...
Wanted me to know that her and her hubby have had some .. every night, late night talk sessions .. where she has imparted to him . the many various err of his ways .. and changes she wants to see, etc.
Said it's requiring a L.O.T. of patience ... I dunno .. does the guy have some learning disabilities .. I suspect he does .. seen it myself in standing toe to toe with him in the past. One can explain their gripe to him . .whatever that might be, and him circle around and around and around ... all to keep explaining your gripe .. whatever it is .. and what/why it's a gripe .. and what you wanna see done differently and why .. and it does .. I've experienced it myself in dealing with him .... it does take a long time .. to bring him to any comprehension/understanding on whatever is being sought in the way of some resolution.
Sounded like, from what she was sharing with me, .. she was really pretty much touching on every point of contention .. (was glad to hear she's found some voice, footing . and will speak the h377 up finally) ... and .. .loads of patience on her part, ... as she explains and re-explains and then re-re-explains ..
For instance, .. her gripe that he won't give her a dime without argument .. for any thing .. ever .. and her griping about that, . .and not on any bank acct they have .. no access to $ .. that she wants that to change. Said he finally did acquiesce to *they'll go to the bank and get her on the accts* .. and they have set forth in one another an accountability as to any expense more than $20 ... one is to check with the other, .. if $20 or more is spent in any one endeavor ...
Good start, . healthy.
For him it appears to be born out of "control" more than anything . not a surprise. Said that his reasoning when questioned ... "I just want to hold onto every dollar and not spend frivolously" (don't we all) . .said she countered that is her goal too (she assures me, . but this is all stuff I don't need to be lost in the weeds on . they need to sort thru "ALL" this stuff . with a professional . not me) ... but . she assures me his ways were not ever born from any over-spending on her part, ... it's "control" to him ... "control" in the aspect . if she says she needs more diapers . generally he goes .. that way "he" whips out that debit card and pays for diapers ... nevermind that maybe if she'd of been the one to go, she might say "oh yea know, .. running low on diaper wipes . let me grab those too while here" .. and spend more $ to do that .. "control" to him .. he gets to hold the debit card, . he gets to "control" the dollars that fly out the window.
That just one example of some territory covered in their late night sessions. Whatever, ..
1) I'm glad she finally found some voice, to speak up
2) Not mine to help sort through . don't want the task . none of my biz
3) Hope they (her) intend to launch some counseling and said as much .. to her.
My DH was working 6 days & exhausted when he got home. Was very hands-on so though. A great midwife laid that down in prenatal classes: only sooky boys can't do nappies, REAL men can do the worst pooey nappies, bathe bubs, give bottles & mash veggies. His male ego took that on. (Thankyou legendary Midwife!!!!!)
Postnatal depression is real. No matter who says otherwise.
My guess is DD needs to be checked out for depression. I think she could be *self medicating* to restore balance to her life. Getting some endorphins, to restore brain chemical balance. A good thing, if in positive ways like running, great. But in what other forms I don't know. Shoplifting thrill? Over-spending? Maybe even drugs? Maybe meeting a new guy who makes her feel good again.
All that mysterious missing time. All that mysterious missing money.
I hate to say it, but like WorriedinCali, drugs did cross my mind. Or gambling. One, either or both of them.
I agree with Barb that DD has to seek help & counselling for herself. Whatever is driving her behaviour, whether financial abuse or situational depression, only she can take steps to change her situation.
What helped me was another great midwife (Irish). She had no family here so had zero built-in babysitters. She loved babies & children but after her first bub found she fell into a great grief without her job, a big part of her identity. So she gave the baby up to daycare as soon as it was old enough. She went on to have 4 kids. All raised in daycare while she worked fulltime as soon as she could. She had no regrets. She was fullfilled & her kids were ok. Her wage mainly went on daycare at the start, but school fees got cheaper. She said get the father to do more childcare. If he can't, get your Mum, or Aunties. If no family, get paid Aunties *daycare*.
DD can't reply on Sonny Boy (until he grows up some) or his folks & she needs more than her parents can give - so daycare. And going back to work. Even 2 days would make a huge difference. To her mood. Social time with adults. A purpose. Her OWN money. Get her mojo back.
I have wondered this, too.
DD is spot on calling this out. If he has a problem with his boss, with Dorker, whoever, HE needs to speak to them direct. Not drivel tales to DD. Man up mate!
So there's that growing up to do.
Then there's the money stuff.
He's not the only parent to have felt the enormous weight of being the sole bread-winner. That is tough. That alone could have led him to become so controlling with the finances... or maybe DD was overspending? Or maybe he's saving for their own house or new truck? Whatever caused it needs to be addressed but it needs to STOP.
*This is financial abuse*.
Sonny Boy & DD absolutely need to get professional input to find a better path - for the finances & for the whole lot.
Assuming his brother (not a young man surely?) would take over his care needs was wishful thinking foolishness. (I actually thought wtf...).
Hey Bro, need you to look after me. Yep, putting you on the payroll. No I won't come to yours. You move into my house & look after me. Oh, & the Mrs. She needs help but will fight you over everything. Probably ask you to leave daily. Start fixing my bills will ya? Here's my card, just pretend you are me when you use it. I'm not signing any legal papers or anything. I need help standing sometimes & you can manage the catheter care & all that toilet stuff too. So see ya soon.
Need coffee first... head in spin.
RIP 🐶😞