I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
So not much there.
She has .. I guess as reserve from cashing in on RM .. she has liquid assets of $20k ..
And so . yes that can be used to private pay and dependent upon where .. and cost . that can be eaten up in a matter of two months or maybe one more ..
And I don't know that one can even apply for Medicaid with liquid assets at their disposal to that tune, and stated that to SIL.
And I'm also almost certain that any facility that is accepting private pay . is not gonna accept that small amount of liquidity .. they want at least six months, to my knowledge. She doesn't have that.
I'm thinking the SW may advise a Medicaid atty as well .. and sort that all through.
Doesn't look like, after fees and such . there'd be any value to realize after the sale of the home.
”There is no POA for finances that would allow anyone to access her RM balance, or sell her home.”
This is true BUT I think I’ve actually read one of Igloos post advising a poster to go ahead and let the RM Co sell the house which is the right of the RM Co. following the terms set out in the contract because they didn’t think they had any equity left in the property.
They can take possesion within a certain length of time of MIL not living there. I forget what time frame Dorker said MIL‘s contract stipulates.
After it’s sold and the mortgage and fees and taxes and whatever is owed are paid off, whatever is left is distributed to MIL.
For Medicaid recepients this can be a problem.
The timing is important.
Because after being accepted by Medicaid, if she receives an amount that throws her assets over the state Medicaid monthly limit, then those funds will have to be spent down the same month received.
It has to be spent on her care or her funeral or whatever she needs or wants.
The money can’t be gifted. If it isn’t out of her bank account before the month is up, she will lose her Medicaid status and have to reapply.
So since that would be a problem it might be better for her to sell the house herself and pay off the mortgage and fees before accepting Medicaid if it’s believed her property has significantly increased in value since taking out the RM.
She can still use any equity to pay for her care or any other items such as mentioned. It would just keep her (DH/SIL) from having to reapply.
So to do that, she would need to be able to sign the real estate documents Or agree to a Financial POA to allow SIL or DH to handle the sale.
So this is important to understand. How much equity is assumed to be coming to MIL? The fees are huge with a RM so the equity will be reduced significantly.
If no money is expected back (or very little) then it’s a lot easier to do what Igloo suggested and just let the RM Co handle it all.
I sold a house for my SIL after her husband died. It had a RM. BIL had not paid the taxes or insurance so the mortgage co had paid them. Since I sold the house, she didn’t have to come up with realtors fees and she earned a modest amount of equity.
This was before the laws changed to toughen up the rules on RM. RM still not a good idea. But very MIL.
I only bring this up because when she files for Medicaid it becomes a factor.
And yes, fully aware .. 100% .. that DH is gonna have to be the contact person .. and that is gonna be the case.
And yes .. until she was stricken with two bouts of Vertigo within a week .. and then laryngitis and her mom's latest malady landing her in the hospital again .. her staunch mantra had been that she was going to be her f/t caretaker. That was what .. a mere week or two ago.
Suspicious, .. she arrived here to announce she may need to leave again . for a funeral . and lo and behold was reminded again .. she can't .. remember you are the one who agreed to this role.
And so now the tide turns .. she suddenly has the epiphany that this is too much ..
Suspicious.
Maybe a combination of all the above.
Had a long .. come to Jesus conversation (not text) with SIL tonight.
Her pressing for my presence at SW meeting, at which I asked, "WHY? .. I have no standing in any of this .. I'm not her next of kin .. I don't make any decisions .. I have imparted to you . in the last couple of years of all this hellish nightmare .. what I know on the topics at hand .. were you not listening to me".
Let it all hang out .. in conversation with her ..
That I'm not interested any longer in stepping to the beat of their drum . .. and in the beat they designate.
If you want your mom placed .. that is up to you and DH to determine that path forward, I don't have a dog in this race, at all. There was a time that I was so mired in it all that I ended up myself .. a wreck over it .. and it was NEVER MINE TO OWN IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE.
She understood .. and admitted .. she was so enmeshed she couldn't see the forest for the trees. And what assurance do I have at this point, that won't be the case going forward. She heard me.
I didn't yell, but I was forthright with her .. on her avoidance . on her consistently placing her mother's happiness .. at the feet of whoever she could summon to that front, mostly me for far too long .. etc etc.
Talked to DH more on it tonight . and he feels as though, were we not all of the same accord . yea . you would be facing the same dilemma here . but we aren't .. we are all on the same page . it's how to get there from here . and you have more knowledge on that than either me or sister. Why is that DH?
Reminded him that he at one time, . said it himself, "I want you out of this, why are you now pressing me back into it".
His answer: "It was wrecking you, . up at 3 AM .. not sleeping .. crying .. and upset .. it was wrecking you .. the whole thing . but we're all on that page now .. sister has lived it .. up close and in her face .. and I've seen enough of it all myself . that I've sat in enough ER's and been there to summon 911 .. and sat thru enough cajoling her to eat/drink . take her meds .. I've seen it myself enough that I too am on that page now, we're all on the same page here . .it's how to get there from here, and you have the know-how more than either of us".
As it was .. yes .. at least with him . not with SIL . yelled at him .. "that's not my problem . you guys have had how long to catch up and neither of you did . and now you want me to school you .. catch up".
He too, apologizing.
How sincere are these heartfelt apologies vs .. we need your Dorker .. we'll say whatever you wanna hear.
I am going to sleep on it tonight .. and decide ..
They don't either one of them "Deserve" my participation .. not in any sense. But MIL does .. and that is not to state that I'm some authority on all this, I'm not. But the fact I possess the minuscule amount of knowledge I do have, .. leaps and bounds above what they know on it all, and to deny that to MIL in helping to facilitate what we are, at least, finally agreeing on .. I'm torn, still.
And the transition to placement could have just as easily occurred in IL, close to SIL, so SIL would be there to attend to the many needs AFTER placement. If this FL thing is indeed going to happen, hope you make it known early on, that DH will be the local contact person for all these needs, and not you. Care-taking does NOT end with placement. I suspect SIL knows this, and she wants fully out and back to her old life and texting ways, and always did, despite all her rosy-lips words and lamenting. And back she will go to burning the texts out to any and all takers in FL. Yeah - I do get that feel of a manipulative thing being attempted all along by SIL.
Yes, Dorker, you DO know. They will shunt the $hit work off to you and point fingers at you as the bad guy who made this happen.
This is heartbreaking and sad, all around.
But you don't own it. Step away.
That's been a pattern, yes? Trust it when people show you who they are.
Is there the slightest chance, if you go to the meeting, you will get a text showing DH knee deep in a work problem and an excuse that he can’t attend?
He won’t put on his big boy panties if he doesn’t have to.
I am not judging. I am married to a guy very similar.
Let’s hope this SW is on the ball, compassionate, has the info she needs and is able to have a successful meeting.
I have high hopes for DH to be the adult in the room and to realize he has to be the adult.
I have zero confidence SIL will ever be the adult in the room when it concerns her Mom.
What about HIS responses during that time? What a crock....
What he seems to be saying is that when YOU were saying his mom needed more care, he denied that truth, because he chose to believe his sister's long distance assessment.
Not saying you need to act on this. I just think you need to be aware of it.
Obviously, DH doesn't want to touch any of these MIL issues (except fix-it stuff), so if he does it, it's because he needs to.
By you, Dorker, being there at the meeting with the SW, you take away his only reason to get his hands dirty and own MIL ongoing care. If he won't own it now, he'll never own it as long as you're there holding his hand and thinking he's incapable.
IF YOU AREN'T IN HIS LIFE, I bet he can somehow find a way to take care of MIL business: do it himself or pawn it off to someone else. But here comes Dorker...
What could you add to a session with the facility SW?
This session is for DH and SIL to come to terms with the fact that their mom needs FAR more care than anyone can give in a home setting (You know that already; this is sort of therapy for them) .
Hopefully the facility is seeing that as well, but even if they haven't yet, SIL and DH need to tell SIL that THEY know, up front, that there is no way in He(( that their mom can be cared for in a home setting because A. There is no "team" to care for her at home and B. When additional non-family help has been ordered/brought in/arranged for, she fires them.
She is still thought to be competent and THAT is the elephant in the room (well, that and the fact that she has no funds, except for the RM). There is no POA for finances that would allow anyone to access her RM balance, or sell her home.
I think DH and SIL's task tomorrow is to ask the SW's assistance in A. Finding a suitable placement B. Figuring out the financial stuff and C. Telling MIL.
YOU don't need to be there for any of those.
Geez, your SIL is a trained SW, isn't she?
Yes, you are more dispassionate, but for Heaven's sake, the woman has training in this field.
I still say that you don't go to the meeting tomorrow. If you don't go, you can't be given any assignments. And you know you would be given assignments. The fact that you are there implies you want to be part of the solution.
How is B's sister doing?
Remember it was just a few months ago that I FINALLY got SIL's ear after her being "so busy and mom is always at my elbow" that she couldn't return a frickin damn phone call for weeks on end.
FINALLY when I did get hear and told her that I am exiting completely from any role as c'giver going forward .. she thought that best also .. as she described it, . "I can't do things the way you want them done .. and mom's happiness .. is what is important to me, and it makes her too sad to contemplate placement anywhere . and so .. as long as I can . don't know when that will be, but as long as I can .. I'll continue to care for her, til I can't anymore".
That was her tune she was singing as recent as a few months ago . and it was me that prompted all this . in my having finally blown my stack at her having negated that rehab stint there in IL ..
Her now expressing that she just "can't do things the way that I'd have them done".
Now ..
Now though . .seems that tune is changed. She now says .. she can't do this anymore . in a mere few months time ...?!???
Is that because she now lived it, .. as DH puts it .. and sees for herself . the need, the deep incessant never ending . need, that she can't withstand the rigors of.
Or is that because when she arrived back here and announced they might need to leave for B's sister's funeral and found out that isn't an option . .that I meant what I said . that I am not stepping back in as c'giver . in any capacity .. then it finally dawned on her .. "wow . this is mine .. all mine .. I better figure out what I'm gonna do".
And now the tune is being sung . that MIL needs placement.
So, on the one hand, .. I try to console my conflicting emotions on what to do .. with the fact that yes there has been change .. and now there is one stated goal .. in unison .. placement. And that's huge.
But on the other hand .. I'm still so conflicted because it's my firm belief . no one will ever have any impetus to change a thing that they are doing .. as long as it works for them .. and as long as they can defer that pain of whatever it is . to others. So my being a part of any SW setting .. and whether that will then set in motion that there is no impetus on their parts to change anything in the end. I don't know.
So conflicted.
I left today to go visit my dad (recovering from back surgery) and ran headlong there, into some issues.
Talked to my dad some on this (he is still sharp mentally) . and he is aware of this whole saga as it has unfolded. Talked to him some .. on the "Dad what do I do .. .???....you know where this has all gone in the past . you know how twisted it all was at one time, I don't wanna end up in those shoes again .. ".
His advice: "I think part of the problem there . you can actually help with .. you aren't as emotionally tied to this whole thing as DH and his sister are, she's not your mom . you see things without that emotional attachment . and so . I think you could provide some valuable insight . but yea . that dreaded mission creep . .you have to be so careful not to get buried in it .. before you know it you look up and you're surrounded by it all, . that's a problem".
Talked to DH some .. and expressed my misgivings at any further involvement by me. His answer: "I think at one time yea you were fighting uphill . .SIL not on this page .. that page has turned, . she is firmly there . you won't hear from her any subverting and excuses as to mom and her condition . she's well aware . having lived it .. ".
Yep ... all true.
BUT ..........................
I am so very aware .. that in a perfect world, the onus is on DH and his sister, period .. end of discussion. And without the two of them owning this .. there really isn't much impetus on their parts to change any of it is there.
What's changed in the months since I backed away . now that they are trying to suck me back into the vortex?
For one thing .. DH has seen the light . that his mom needs more care, and the yellow bedroom .. is firmly off the table .. even in his view. He hasn't yet put on his big boy pants and been the adult in the room enough to take charge and tell his sister what for. That hasn't happened ..
BUT .. at one time .. I was the lone wolf crying that the mother needs more care, . to everyone dismissing my thoughts .. "We have a team now, she'll manage" .. and on and on it went. That has changed. DH now sees it ..
When/IF EVER ............. will he put on any big boy pants and be the adult in the room and take charge? I don't know that it'll ever happen. The man can fix anything .. is so very mechanically skilled .. but ... anything on the periphery of that . is pretty much lost on him. To expect that he would own this stuff .. ADL's .. cognitive assessments, SNF's .. AL's .. and the varying degrees of care settings and need vs placement .. and Medicaid . and sorting that thru .. it ain't ever gonna happen with him. Hand him something that requires a screw driver and a pile of nothing but a heap of stuff .. he'll have it all put together in no time .. hand him the above .. to deal with .. he'll walk away .. even if it's his own mom. Seen it .. time and again.
But . he has now cleaned up enough chitapalooza in the absence of Dorker who exited the scene . he has sat thru enough 911 summoned personnel .. and ER admits . and .. confusion .. disorientation on his mom's part .. and so forth .. the situation now has his attention. Where formerly, it did not.
To expect that he will see/experience the above and actually have it dawn on him .. "hey .. there needs to be something done about this .. and I'm just the guy to do it" .. and now research/own it .. and go about it .. not gonna happen.
SO where does Dorker stand in all that? Still on the periphery .. oh well . not mine to own .. and he damn sure ain't gonna .. he just ain't made that way . oh well .. hope ya'll work it all out, let me know how that works for you guys.
A fixer Dorker .. a hop in and do Dorker .. stand on the periphery . and wait for him to own it. I dunno.
So torn.
SIL ....... what has changed? Everything seemingly.
Remember ..
What if the POA is revocable or there is no POA at all? What if the parent knows what's what, but has limited mobility and is a fall danger and is just IMPOSSIBLE to live with, therefore nobody wants to take the parent into their own home and doesn't want to live at the parent's house either?
Usually one sibling "blinks" and becomes the caregiver at the expense of her physical and financial health. What if no sibling is willing to do this?
Do Not Go To The Meeting.
DD and M do not need to go to the meeting.
If SIL starts explaining things away it is DHs responsibility to set the record straight. If they lock horns in the meeting all the better. They need the opportunity to do this without outside interference.
Anyone thinking they want to be the adult in the room need not attend unless they are 1,000% vested, time, emotionally, etc, until the cloud appears. That immediately takes out DD and M. What about you? No fly bys allowed! DH and SIL only.
Email fine. Attending meeting should be a big h3ll no on your part.
As to POA - I am wondering who exactly handles the paying of MIL's bills now? Like electric, water, etc. Once my mom was in the rehab, I immediately told mom that I must have POA right now, in order to handle her bills, banking, etc. She had no problem with that, so I quickly found a lawyer to draw up POA, and his assistant went to the actual rehab with me with the paper, and mom signed it no problem. It all happened quite fast.
I also was able to gently announce the transition to LT by saying that for now, "they" don't feel you are ready to go home, but we shall see how it goes at the new place, and how much stronger you become. "It's really in God's hands, mom, and we will see how it goes." After a couple of weeks, the LT became "home" to her, and when she was admitted to the hospital at one point, she would beg to go home as always, but home was the LT care and her comfy room there. I was able to set up her room there with many of the comforts of her house - especially her easy chair, side table with her usual things on it, tv, remote, etc. My mom's world had become so small by this point, that her chair, her newspaper, her phone, and her remote, set up like always had become "home" to her.
The Five Wishes is the equivalent of a POA for medical care in the state of Florida. You can’t use it to sell her house but you can use it to make a placement if she is deemed incompetent.
That document should be at the meeting so the SW can shed any light she has on whether it’s helpful or not in her current circumstance.
At the very least DH needs to know if he is listed as alternate and which options MIL chose.
If the document needs adjusting then NOW is the time to sign another while MIL is still deemed competent to do so.
[aside. I would quite like to sneak into SIL's room overnight and tattoo "I LIVE IN ILLINOIS" on her forehead but this is mere whimsy.]
I hope the meeting goes well. We shall see. But Dorker, even if it doesn't you'll be doing no more bathing, transferring or med management for MIL than I will. Hold tight to that.
These folks have had almost 2 years to educate themselves about eldercare and have chosen not to; I understand that it's due to longstanding issues within the family, but even so... DH too busy hunting, SIL too busy dog sitting to do anything as constructive as looking over Medicaid regs in Florida.
If you are in the room, you will be the bad guy.
What is the stated purpose of the meeting? Is it for SIL and DH to tell the SW that they are seeking a permanent placement for MIL? That the placement will need to be a Medicaid pending one?
Maybe DD can go if you watch the twins?
It's going to be horribly sad and I don't think you need to expose yourself any more than is absolutely necessary to the unfolding of this drama.
If you want to contribute some upfront advice via text to the group, it's that in addition to emphasizing that "going home" even with help brought in will be useless because MIL has a long history of dismissing in home care, even when she's been in dire need of it, they need to be upfront with the SW about MIL's finances. If there is RM money that can be used to private pay her way for a year, she might be able to stay where she is, or have a shot at a better placement than is usually available to Medicaid clients.
This is NOT a time to be coy or suspicious. The SW needs to know this stuff.
Dorker, do not fall into this trap. Being consulted is next door to being a participant, being a participant is the beginning of responsibility. But you will STILL have no decision-making authority, and you must therefore reject anything that looks or smells like responsibility. I'm not accusing anyone of luring you into it, I'm just pointing out that the pitfall is there. Watch it.
There are only two available outcomes: #1 MIL declines at home and #2 MIL declines in a facility. Either is going to be sad and stressful for all concerned, because decline is sad and stressful, but neither will directly land on you AS LONG AS you STAY AWAY. Spend your time cultivating your sense of fatalism instead.
You grown up people on the group chat need to start a campaign to tell DH and SIL that they must refuse to bring MIL home as she will never get a Medicaid placement then. The only way is straight from rehab. Tell the girls privately that you are moving to your mother's in SC if MIL moves to your house, and that you are still not going to do hands on care if she moves to her own- and that they can tell DH & SIL if it comes up. It is of ultimate importance that the family refuse to bring her home. They MUST refuse to bring her home and they can say it is a government ruse to get out of paying for Medicaid care (Barb, I think DH would catch on to that one!).
By all means, tell SW by phone before the meeting there is NO ONE, nor a TEAM, who can tend MIL.
But I would not go down the slippery slope of helping much more than that. If DD and M want to do research, I'd say let them run with it. Besides, it seems like SIL will listen more to her golden daughter M than anyone. DH may or may not listen to DD, but your words have fallen on deaf ears plenty of times because "he just doesn't have time for all that." He'll be forced to think differently if there is no choice, and if SIL flies the coop to where HE is the only one there for his mom. NH I bet would be a discussion with MIL then for sure.
One thing I would do, if you talk to the staff/SW (especially the SW) is tell them confidentially that MIL really does NOT have any family that can care for her at home long-term, and no way to hire in-home caregivers, and as her daughter in law and concerned friend, you have worries about MIL's safety if she is discharged home, BUT that you have no authority nor can you be a caregiver, you are just a concerned friend. Emphasize that you are telling them this confidentially, as your husband and his sis are in denial about their mom's cognitive abilities and you worry for her safety.
I know some might disagree with me on this. Even to me, it sounds like overstepping somewhat, but at the same time, I'm honestly worried for MIL's safety if they try to leave her alone again in her home, and I know you've been saying the same. If DH and SIL get mad, well what else is new? It's the truth though, and I really feel like that SW should know. Whether SW does anything about it is out of your hands.