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Reminds me of our tussle over the grey office filing cabinet - "that's my life you want to throw away!"😭

Gordon Bennett. We packed up the filing cabinet. Threw it away after she died, instead.

But, come come, aren't we all rather too attached to our possessions? And we're speaking as people who haven't yet had to narrow them down to a single roomful.
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MIL is quite the drama queen, isn't she?

"Giving up everything"?

People move. It's not a death sentence, not at any age. The fact that her self worth is based on her possessions is an indication of the fact that she is not mentally well.

Mentally healthy people carry their self worth in their souls, not in their suitcases.
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Oh, Dorker.....
Don't start the "what if" thinking. It will make you nuts.

You really cannot look further down the road in this than maybe a month at a time. And YOU don't even have to do that. Neither does SIL b/c she has chosen her path, not yours.

If her goal is to keep MIL "happy" for the rest of her life, then good for her. It's a lose-lose situation, b/c MIL won't BE happy unless everyone is steppin and fetchin' and a lot of the stepper and fetchers have long disappeared.

I do feel for SIL--anybody else with a lick of sense would have found a better NH for MIL than the one they stayed at-the one and only. And then worked the system to make it palatable for MIL. No, she was not going to be happy, she is incapable of it. But her chance flew out the window when she deemed the NH "too depressing" and yanked MIL out of there after a day or so.

We ALL want things we cannot have. That's called life. I am constantly AMAZED at the lengths SIL goes to to make MIL's life the best it can be--and I don't think MIL appreciates it one bit.

As far as therapy and counseling--don't waste time and money on that for her. My own mother (a Narc with suicidal ideations and threats) said to me, not long ago "I don't GET why all you kids take antidepressants. I've never had a depressed day in my life". I couldn't even speak to her, I was so shocked. She used to lock herself in her room for MONTHS on end----I lived in fear until I was in my 30's that she really WOULD kill herself and somehow it WOULD be my fault.) Therapy for that kind of thinking is pointless!

MIL is dying. We all are. She is just doing a little faster than most of the rest of us. How is she doing, really? Did SIL address her overall health or just that she is exhausted trying to meet all the needs? Is her health getting "better" or is SIL projecting the hope on her that she is somehow going to get "well". The only cure for what ails MIL is death. Sounds harsh, but it's true.

SO GLAD you have stood your ground. SIL was an idiot to think that IF she placed MIL in a IL you'd suddenly find THAT dynamic "better" and would gladly jump in to help. WHY would she think that?

Anyone who has done ling term elder care knows that their "patient" is going to eventually need more and more care and will also eventually die. SIL is deluding herself into thinking she can stave off the final "solution." I feel bad for her.

Nothing to be said, really. Nothing has changed, really, since last year's Christmas visit by SIL & B. MIL is worse, nobody has accomplished anything, really. Just such a great "warning" to the rest of us as to what NOT to do.
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I don't think MIL has any awareness of what all it takes to keep her propped up and living comfortably as she would like to...only how it affects her, the thought of "giving up" everything. The cognitive impairment that clearly renders her unable to make rational choices as to her care...

I wonder how SIL proposes that she is going to get MIL back on that plane. You know it will be a fall, or diarrhea, or tears and pleading that she can't leave her home again...digging in her heels however she can...is SIL then going to say, "NO, mom, I can't stay here and I can't leave you here in your home alone either?" Or as you said, is she going to move to FL? It'll be interesting to see how she thinks that will work.

You've done great. I don't feel that sorry for SIL because she is choosing this path...I do feel sorry for her in the respect that she is so dang scared of making her mom unhappy that she's choosing to run herself into the ground than to risk that...that part is sad.
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Lizzy: She's having to "plan" now isn't she?

The supposed "plan" . at present . sounds like, for the foreseeable future . and she in fact said as much .. "we'll do what we can ... as long as we can .. that may mean going back and forth between here and IL .. and that doesn't please her . she doesn't want to have to come back here .. she wants to be in her home . but that's not gonna work .. so for now .. we'll just .. we'll try to get thru each day and do this .. til we can't do it anymore".

I guess that's a "plan". If that's what works for you.

Only .. it's pretty apparent that her thinking .. somewhere in the recesses of her mind .. had a picture that MIL would ultimately land in AL . and likely in FL . per her mom's wishes .. and not in IL . and in which case, Dorker would take the torch and see to all things in that setting .. now that she's in AL.

Nope nope and nope.

So now . she will have to digest on that . and sort thru what she wants to do.

And no .. I don't think I've heard the end of it .. not by a long shot.

I'm sure that at some point .. I don't know .. two weeks from now .. two years from now .. who knows .. there will be arm twisting .. to the degree .. "Well I can't just up and live in FL .. my life is in IL and she's now gonna be in AL .. at least that part has been answered to .. so we need you to be available as to the needs .. now that she has agreed to give up her house and go into AL".

Nope .. not doing it.

Talk to your brother.

What's that . he's no help. Well again .. you guys put your heads together . all of you and figure out how this is going to work .. I said it and I meant it .. I am not doing that aspect of her care .. not on board with it. Wish you well .. hope it all works out.

Clear as a bell, so many things that have been said and resonate with me.

One of the things that MIL imparted to SIL . in her stay up there .. and I guess any dialogue on their parts as to any plan going forward .. and AL . and/or .. stays with SIL in IL .. etc etc etc.

The mother had said this.

MIL: So I'm the one that has to give up everything? I have to go to AL .. or come stay here? It's me that has to give up everything".

Resonated with me.

The different approaches .. this in SIL .. it rings with a sorrow .. and more hand wringing. Very much so . .and no easy answers and no path forward and no frank discussion.

With me, it rings with a "Mother .. I'm sure you are not serious when you say that . do you not recognize and acknowledge all that we have all done thru these last several years to try to keep you in this setting ..surely you aren't serious .. with that plea .... I cannot continue doing it . your needs have increased to a level that you need the support of a setting where there is 24/7 care .. and I cannot provide that".

The difference in approaches. So stark.
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Barb, so interesting that you bring that up, the anti depressants.

I've had that convo with SIL .. numerous times .. in the past .. and it's a response somewhere along the line of

"She used to be on them . quit taking them .. h377 she doesn't even take what she is currently rx'd .. add one more to the mix that she won't take". Yup.

That was of course . her living alone . and on her own to comply with meds.

As recent as the most recent hospitalization of MIL . up in IL .. and me on the horn with SIL and her lamenting that her mom's care is too much . the rigors of it . .me trying to be of support to her .. and a sounding board .. and that the mere mention of AL . to her mom . brings about such despair and so forth.

As recent as that, I again visited the whole issue of anti-depressant . get her evaluated for that (more to the point . now that someone is in 24/7 role as to c'giving . and can dispense that med) .. and get her evaluated .. as to maybe some counseling sessions.

SIGH

So sound reasoning that I am exiting all of this.

It got ignored .. as does so much else.

Shouting match ensues with DH later . on any one of a number of topics as to the MIL scene . this one being one of many ..

Him: "She doesn't want to go to AL .. not anywhere . she wants to be in her home .. and we want her to be happy".

Me: "DH .. she is aging .and frail and no one to step to all the need . it may be that AL is the approach this has to go . and she needs counseling to maybe transition into this process .. that and maybe an anti-depressant .. maybe have her evaluated for that .. I've said that to SIL .... and like so much else in all of it . it gets ignored!".

DH: "Just because you suggest something doesn't mean we have to do it .. don't take it personal. GAWD you take everything so personal .. like you are the end-all-be-all to all things .. as to my mom .. you don't get to call the shots!".

Gotcha.

Differing opinions and approaches.

Were this my mom . you best believe there would be attempt at that .. and it probably wouldn't even cross that bridge . because my mom isn't as selfish and myopic as MIL is . she just isn't .. she's more reasonable ..

But if it got to this juncture, you can bet I'd be on that like white on rice .. no question about it .. and if I made the decision my mom will be in my care as we transition forward . that would be part of the agreement going forward .. and I'd be handing her that pill every single day . along with her other pills . and she'd be carted to those counseling sessions to work thru whatever this denial state is.

Difference of opinion, approaches.

So don't see to it .. and just continue to hand wring at her despair and sadness ..

That's a path too .. I just don't choose to be a part of the fallout that path creates.
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Dorker,

I do sympathize with SIL. She, in her quest to make MIL happy at all cost, has basically put a halt to her own life, indefinitely. I don’t think she fully realizes the impact of her decision. I don’t think she is willing to accept if she chooses this path she is on her own.

You handled the phone call with such grace. I gotta hand it to you, in the moment, the snarky remarks, I could not have been gracious. My hat is off to you.

I would not bonk you on the head for offering respite. But, I would keep that card way, way down deep in my pocket. I would not offer that up for quite some time.

Even though I don’t understand SIL, I do feel sorry for her. She’s created this “plan”. It’s her plan. She’s gotta live it.
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Good for you on the phone convo, Dorker.

SIL is in the position that many of us have been in. The one where we realize that giving our parent what they think they want is going to kill us. Or cause us to lose our job. Or cause our marriage to disintegrate.

The point at which you realize that you need to say to your parent "I' can't do this anymore, Mom". And mean it.

Does SIL ever think about getting MIL assessed for depression? Never mind the cognitive decline, but I wonder if antidepressants (I know she discontinued them long ago) might make a difference in her level of day to day contentment. They made a world of difference for my mom.
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CTTN: She did mention, just in passing ..didn't get any airplay because . to me . it's a non issue . not mine to be charged with .. she mentioned that they'd be flying here about mid Jan . and that they'd stay til maybe about May ..???.....and then .. the mother would have to go back to IL with them.

I don't know if that includes B staying that duration .. I kinda doubt it . I didn't ask . not mine to sort thru . don't care.

I don't know .. I didn't hash thru it all .. but I thought when she said that .. "hmm . okay you stay til May .. ??.... okay .. then what .. ??...return .. all of you to IL .. and then .. what ..??.....June 1 begins hurricane season here ... it stretches .. to November .. so . you guys then return to IL in May . and what stay a few months and return here .. squarely planted here in hurricane season . .not wise SIL . ".

But I didn't hash that thru with her, not gonna. She wants to be here in FL during hurricane season . good . go for it .. I suggest you get thyself to the local hardware store and fork over the approximate $1k it will cost for a decent generator . and bring it home and learn how to use it .. you'll need it . oh and get some boards cut to cover those windows .. and some good hammers and nails . and the good back strength to stand on a ladder and apply those boards to cover the windows .. so forth.

I didn't hash all that through with her, and I won't. Her's to figure out.

B does manage .. in her absence there .. with a lot of direction .. I can't imagine how he gets dressed for the day and in appropriate attire .. without her there directing the show . because that's what she does in her presence with him . put out his appropriate attire for the day .. and direct when to go change out of PJ's and into clothes .. and remind as to pills taken .. and why/what/where/when, etc. Micro-managing her husband .. and him so drugged into oblivion to address his BP disorder .. that he is compliant and a willing participant in the above.

If someone were directing me around with that kinda micro management .. they'd get hit with 2 by 4 .. leave me the hell alone .. I know what I need to do and if you lay out one more piece of clothing you think I need for the day you're gonna wear it . not me .. get outta my azz.

But he's so drugged into oblivion with his BP disorder .. that he's much like a very compliant child .. he's directed as to his every move . by his wife . and doesn't balk. Ever.

How does he manage in her absence .. I really don't know . but he does.

BUT .. with the caveat .. as long as he doesn't slip into mania .. which he is prone to do ..

When he slips into mania .. one has to take his cc's, bank cards, etc .. and she does .. he buys foolish things .. one time .. 11 umbrellas . no I'm not kidding .. why does one need 11 umbrellas .. I dunno . ask someone in the throes of mania.

Another time when he was manic .. he was keeping her awake all hours of the night (literally he does this) .. and this quiet and otherwise unassuming man .. who says very little ever .. talking all night long . keeping her awake . and surfing the internet for houses in Idaho . they were going to move to Idaho and she was going to write a book and he was gonna something or other .. as they reorganize their lives for life in Idaho of all places (and no .. they don't know a soul that lives in Idaho). Why Idaho . who knows .. ask someone in the throes of mania.

He is also diabetic .. and so that gets policed heavily .. and usually . him so compliant and an unassuming soul . goes with the program. When he is manic . he also wants to eat everything but the wall paneling . and so .. policing that from afar .. impossible.

She's got a lot to contend with .. I'd make different decisions .. not mine to sort thru anymore.
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(cont'd)

When they come here to the states .. it sounds like, from afar .. I'm not there on the scene to see it all go on, in IL. Sounds like, . it's much the same . except now SIL takes on the hats of the driver, the entertainment chairman .. the babysitter .. and the son and his wife flit about shopping and going to lunch .. and visiting his high school friends . who are also now grown and have their own lives .. and they take off on a junket to Vegas for a long weekend . and SIL now wears all those hats for them .. in the care and entertainment of the kids. They are on "holiday" here.

Her happy to do it .. she never gets to see her g'children ..

Probably much like I do for my DD here . but on a more routine basis . since DD lives right here .. same kinda thing .. I help her in any way she needs .. as best I can . routinely ..

So what will SIL do .. the son and family to visit .. and her mom in residence there .. in her home .. a zoo like atmosphere with 3 kids running amok . and it sounds like they are kids who need a lot of stimulation and activity .. and used to that kinda daily life .. and so what will she do .. that one lone issue .. outside of a lot of other issues .. that's the only time she gets to see them.

If Dorker would just step the hell into all this .. that would free her up to .. as she's done in the past . have 3 weeks to visit them in her home .. and be all things to all people in that setting .. and 2 weeks before, to be there to prepare her home . etc .. and 2 or 3 weeks after to recover .. etc.

Or .. as has been done in the past . her and B .. fly out to whatever location they are now living in .. at one time it was Indonesia .. and SIL and B flew there, for 3 weeks. She's not going to have that as an option going forward . either way .. how will she accommodate housing her son and family in home . and enjoy her g'children . charged with also, the care of her aging frail mother, . that really . it's not gonna be a good setting with the zoo like atmosphere it all creates.

I feel for her. I do. I can't imagine myself and what I'd do .. I so dearly love and enjoy my own g'children and adore spending time with them .. and to have that ability really compromised .. would be so hurtful to me .. that I would find any way possible . to not have to contend with that.

What will she do about it? I really don't know . it's going to seriously compromise her ability to house her son and family for 3 week stretches .. it just is.

Her son makes more money than GOD .. maybe he comes there but stays in a rented suite somewhere . but the holiday that brings about for them . is still at issue .. really in the end . the SIL not able to step to that role . in the care of her own mom. She already told me that they really don't . not for a very long time, leave her alone to manage on her own, in her own home there. That they have . but only briefly and they do so . by setting up almost any need she'd have while they are gone . and it's not for long .. that for her, navigating their house . and doing what she needs to do .. it's really easier for her, in her own home . to navigate .. so they don't leave her for long.

So not like she'd go waltzing off to stay at some rented suite complete with indoor heated pool and so forth to play with the kids .. she wouldn't be able to do that.

She's got an awful lot to weigh out . and we know about her, she doesn't seem to have a whole lot of introspect .. and so . I wish her luck with it. I suppose I'll hear of that dilemma at some point . that her son wants to come with his family and what to do . what to do .. what to do. Wish you well SIL .. I'm sure you'll work it out.

Or the dog sitting for her world traveler daughter .. M's 3 dogs plus MIL's 1 .. equals 4 dogs under foot and a fall risk in her mom . not good. So . that gets taken off the table to? Her decisions.

Tough ones. I'd make different choices.
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Real progress made in that phone call! You did great, Dorker!

Two important points made

1. SIL's overriding concern confirmed that it is MIL's happiness that is paramount. So all decisions will be made with this in mind.

2. SIL's hopes/dreams/expectations that Dorker will do the doctor appts. for MIL in FL AL are now extinguished for good. That magical thinking has stopped.

I foresee that IF MIL, SIL and B fly to FL next month, that SIL and B will stay with MIL. At some point B will fly home, just like he did this year. And SIL will be here, still, with MIL. (It was interesting that B seemed to manage just fine when he was by himself in IL this year. Does he do his own medical appointments? Control his diet? Take his meds regularly?) Perhaps at some point B will fly down again to be with his wife. And then in June (July? August?) they will all fly to IL again.

THIS is the only way I really see that SIL will be able to honor her mother's Supreme Above All Else desire for happiness.
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(cont'd)

She doesn't know that though. Take DH .. and both of us fly up there .. he can never be off more than what is a long weekend . off from work ... both of us fly up there . him stay the short duration he can do . and me stay on . while she and B .. go off for some respite . wouldn't be much ... because I don't want an extended care plan .. to have to attend to and depart my own life here.

I didn't offer that .. and depending on what goes on . going forward .. I may or may not ever speak that out loud . we'll see.

Interesting dichotomy there on that point in that when I ponder the above as any notion of giving SIL respite from it all (because this is all gonna be on her) .. I do come to the conclusion I don't know that I'd be so at the ready to step to that need .. and offer respite .. were it in the setting of her own home .. here in FL. Reason being .. there in that setting .. it would be too easy to then turn and say "Well we've decided we're gonna go home for a few months and take care of some things .so we need you to Dorker .. go ahead and plan on just staying here with mother for the few months that we'll be gone".

Too easy to come to that conclusion .. and that slippery slope is now the order of the day.

So I didn't offer anything at all, in the way of any plan .. of respite or otherwise . and I may or may not ever.

Dealing with these people who don't "hear you" when you speak .. it'd be too easy for the above dilemma to then land squarely in your lap and you find yourself in opposition and consternation with it all. Been there .. far too long. Don't want that as my existence, ever again.

((I know, .. those that have done this hands-on c'giving thing would likely bonk me over the head .. a WEEK....?!?!?!....that's all ... a week?!??! ... a week .. that's enough time for you to catch your breath maybe . but that's it .. that's no respite .. you need a month or more . if you're gonna offer somebody respite from it all, that's .. Dorker that's just selfish .. if you're gonna help . then HELP))).

Bonk me over the head then .. because no I'm not willing to do that .. and her son can't .. he works for a living .. and so .. my approach is one of . you take this on .. do so at your own risk .. because there ain't gonna be much help for ya there SIL.

I don't intend to, going forward . belabor a lot of finer points with her, as to the whole scene .. I will defer .. and ask her what does her brother say .. I'm sure her brother is a non entity in it all .. as she said, "he's no help". she's right . he isn't .. been there/lived that saga myself .. got into the shooting match with him countless times over it .. for years .. and it's still .. to this day .. and will always be .. "he's no help". So I'm sure any comment from my peanut gallery "oh that's tough . what does your brother have to say about that", .. likely will bring about that kinda reaction . that too will be met with . "oh man .. yea you've got a problem . I"m sure it'll work itself out".

I can't imagine . she's got a world of a load on her .. I mean .. for instance . her son and family . the royal son .. he usually can only visit once a year .. maybe twice but that's rare. When they do come .. (it's the only time she gets to see her g'children, sadly). It's a zoo at her house, from all I can envision . having heard about it from afar. Her son and his wife . because of his job and his employment offers them a driver, a nanny .. a housekeeper, etc .. they live . what sounds like . a life of royalty . to me . .someone who never had those kinda accouterments. Having only been around that contingent . one time .. this past summer .. my observation is that they really don't do much hands on caring for their 3 kids .. maybe in their world .. their daily world .. they depend greatly on the maid .. the nanny, etc .. and they go about their lives .. him working and whatever it is she does.
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CM: Once she absorbs and processes and ruminates on what was said to her, she will be angry .. hurt .. befuddled, etc.

Her statement, "even if she's in AL in FL .. you won't take her to docs?". No I won't.

She's going to have to chew on that specific point for a while .. as she processes what in the name of heavens she intends to do.

She's really stuck .. SIL is. She wants her mom to be *as happy as can be achieved and not sad and blue*. I get that. Part and parcel of that endeavor is gonna be .. giving her mom what she wants... THE MOST ... being in her own home.

She's already established that no she shouldn't be left alone anymore .. she already said that to me .. so that's clearly obvious to her. So does SIL now decide .. once she's chewed on what's been said .. does she now make the determination they'll just close up their house .. for good .. for the next immediate future .. rent it out, whatever .. and relocate to FL .. to let MIL live out her remaining days in her beloved home in FL. And then what ...???....begin the search anew in FL .. as to her DH's health maladies and putting in place a team for his care. A problem of enormous consideration.

I'm sure .... in her mind's eye .. there was (absolutely sure of it) the belief that if she gets her in AL . in FL .. that Dorker will be to the front to do all things MIL .. "at least now she's in AL".

At one time, that might've happened .. but .. being on the other side now of seeing the extreme lack of communication these folks operate by .. and the other side now of the countless rabbit holes SIL can conjure up .. and the other side of seeing the arm twisting that goes on .. I want no part of it .. AL or otherwise.

Difference in approaches. Bottom line.

You want to chase rabbit holes ... great .. wonderful, do it .. have at it .. if it makes you happy ... I'll cheer ya on. You want to operate in a vacuum .. and not communicate/validate the concerns of others .. expected to help .... that's not gonna work for me.

I realize she's in an enormously difficult spot with all this. I get it. Nobody .. not a single soul on this planet can FORCE the mother to do anything absent any POA .. and there isn't one. There's no one that can force the mother into any setting .. and doesn't sound, at all, like that's any page she'd be on any way ..

Things would look a lot different were it my mom that I'm having to navigate these waters with. It's not .. so ... do it then SIL.

Going forward .. she can call me if she'd like, .. and I will elaborate if she wishes .. I don't expect she will .. who wants to hear all the finer points of all the perceived transgressions that brought me to this spot? I don't expect she'll ask for much more in the way of any explanation .. and that's good. Because going forward .. she's gonna see in any dialogue in me .. much of what a friend .. a friend that has no expectation on their head .. to step to it all .. what a friend might respond, an acquaintance .. "oh gee, yea that sounds tough . wow, have you talked to her son .. maybe he has some input .. what's that .. oh he's useless .. man you're in a tough spot .. hope that works out .. ". That kinda thing .. she's going to find in me, not a whole lot of useful dialogue on the topic going forward.

Something I didn't say to her . and I keep in my pocket for later use .. and discreetly so .. or I can take it out of my pocket and throw it away also as any notion going forward. Should she decide that the path forward .. is to keep her mom there in IL (will be very displeasing to her mom and not sure how she'd even accomplish that) .. but should that be her path forward .. depending on how bad the situation is .. I'm not toileting and showering her mom .. .but ... I'm not opposed to .. as a means of respite .. flying up there .. I'd stay a week maybe .. and let her and B head out for a break ..
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((((((((Dorker)))))))) I am SO proud of you.

It all boils down to that useful hug we had before AC rearranged everything - "it's okay not to be okay."

You care about MIL. You cannot make her okay.
SIL doesn't want her mother to be unhappy. Doesn't mean she can accomplish that.
MIL wants to be left in peace in her familiar home. Doesn't make it a good idea, or even a feasible goal.

And *everybody* is allowed to have and express these feelings. Meanwhile, one foot in front of the other every day.

And you have explained to SIL things she really needed to take on board. Even if she didn't say, in terms, "oh I see I understand now" and even if she is still not happy, that doesn't mean she's not happy with *you*. She's unhappy that the MIL problem remains unsolved, which it does, and will do until. Until you-know-when. Just have to live with it, everybody does.

But you have done wonders. Hugs again.
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(cont'd)

end .. is thankful that her husband is so patient and understanding of it all .. and helpful.

I didn't point it out to her .. but I know for a fact, he isn't entrusted one iota in hauling the mom to and fro docs .. that isn't hoisted upon him to see to. He does things like take care of the dog . and run to the grocery store . and to Walgreens . that's about it .. and put up with his MIL in his home.

I do almost feel sorry for her . and for her husband .. the path forward that she is taking . one of inaction .. as per usual . is going to land this squarely at their feet . to deal with and solely them . but that's their choice to make . if she wants to take this path .. then do it ..

I almost feel sorry for her .. but not enough to step into it all.

And I told her that.

I didn't get to it .. I did mention that her mom has gotten to where she can be mean .. I didn't cite anything specific .. but I can if I need to.

I told her it's my firm belief there is coginitive impairment . and that she shouldn't be given the latitude she's given .. as to charting her own course .. but .... I understand that as her daughter . you want to allow that latitude . and so .. I don't have a problem with that, respect it .. but I can't keep partaking of something I don't believe in at all . different approaches .. very different.

All in all, .. a "good" conversation .. one that didn't end in hurt feelings on either end . and .. at least it's out there . it'll take a while to absorb what was said . on her end . and she will have to then . begin to think about what she wants to continue to give up in her retirement years .. to this whole endeavor (I don't suspect it will change).

As she put it . "Me and B are both getting older, I'm 67 .. and he's 74 .. and he has a whole host of issues himself . that I have to stay after .. so this isn't easy . . all I can tell you is that for right now . .for right this here and now .. I am just getting thru daily life .. as best I can .. and no . not really looking at tomorrow or next month".

Fine by me. .. your life.

I think I was able to clearly articulate my points for the most part, without having to draw and outline of the point for point transgressions all along the way.

Whether it gets absorbed/respected . is up to her.

And btw ..... no plane tix purchased as of yet .. but they are slated to return here mid January .. so it was said.
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(cont'd)

mean and hateful .. that's not my motivation at all. If I could wave a magic wand and restore youth and health .. I'd do it. But that doesn't exist .. and the reality is . her health and well being is in serious decline and it takes more propping up than I can continue to be a part of . that's the bottom line . that and the fact there are differences of opinion as to the approaches to all this... I'm done with the conflict this creates in my world .. between your brother and myself . this isn't mine to own . never was .. "

I went on to say to her, .. "Look I have been at this a long long time .. I was on the scene helping even before your dad died .. and that was 2003 . you still working in those days and unable to be here as much as you wanted .. and many years beyond that .. was happy to do it. In the end, as you're aware . your mom's needs have increased markedly .. and my life has changed and I can't do it .. and I don't agree with the way you approach things . and can't keep doing it".

And that's when she said that about .. "and I can't do things your way . shes' my mom . I'm her daughter ... I'm gonna be more vested in doing whatever I can to make sure she's happy .. and .. look after her .. as best I can, and it's stressful to me . also .. feeling like I have to answer to you (she probably should've termed it argue with me . she didn't have to answer to me, but she did argue with me .. as I'd push back and balk at different scenarios).

In the end .. I'm sure . absolutely sure .. there will be more to this drama . this one conversation didn't make the light shine brightly and all is well . and everyone understands everyone. Not gonna work that way .. sure of it.

But . at least there is a meeting of the minds .. at least rudimentary like .. on the fact that there is agreement .. she agrees .. I don't need to be in it. Good!

She said of her mom . that her mom feels bad .. that her mom says things like, "I just am useless .. I need to go on and die . and be out of everyone's way" and of course these kinds of things are upsetting to SIL . that she doesn't want her mom to feel like she's a problem .. (she is . a problem .. and SIL admits that) . but she doesn't want her mom sad and feeling as though she's a burden .. and yet in the same sentence she talks of her mom's sadness and despair at any notion of an AL or otherwise . that her mom just wants her home .. and her things .. etc.

I asked her, "does your mom connect the dots .. that her refusal to consider AL .. and her insistence on returning to her home . .that equates to . that you are going to be the one that has to sacrifice so much in her care .. does she connect those dots".

SIL: "I think it's a struggle for her . and one she is struggling to come to terms with .. sometimes she says things about just put her on a plane, her and her dog . and let them go home . and she'll manage . but we remind her . that's not gonna be possible and cite reasons why .. so we keep that in the forefront . that's not reality . we know she has struggled . this isn't new .. with the reality of aging . and fought it . and that continues .. but she is trying to come to terms with it .. trying to anyway".

Me: "See, that's where you and I differ .. I am no longer willing to continue stepping to the beat of her needs .. SIL . how many times did I cart her to the cardio doc with that edema issue and go round and round on that .. even suggesting a home health aide to come and put on support hose . if she can't tolerate meds .. and her refusal to do so. .. I can't keep doing it .. she's not my mom .. banging my head against a brick wall and wasting colossal amounts of time and energy .. and her with no ability at compromise of any sort . not wanting "others" to cart her around .. and not wanting "others" to come and go at helping .. no compromise at all. I can't do it .. and I won't".

She understands .. admits it is a huge adjustment there . on their
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Her statement that she finds in dealing with me, stress and so forth. I get it.

Just indicative of the pushback she's gotten from me ..

Her thinking path A is the best approach to whatever .. but needing me to enact it . .and me pushing back that I think path A is stupid and senseless and not gonna do it.

I get it.

Doesn't mean it changes any approach in me. My approach is . .and that was communicated to her clearly .. I am out of it .. this needs to be between she and her brother and her mom . to the degree they wish to engage her. I need to be out of all this, for my own well being but also for the sake of the state of her being . which IMO . is at a critical juncture, that doesn't need my input . and disagreement with them.

As I told her and I mean it .. "it just comes down to .. your approach is different than mine .. and you have the trump card here, . she's your mom . yours and DH's . and so . you guys need to be the ones to walk this walk and talk this talk and make the decisions going forward, and I don't need to be in it".

She did emphatically state that DH is no help at all, that it's up to her and B ..

I didn't engage on that topic and I won't be.

There was a time, that would've sent me scurrying to climb up DH's backside and try to prompt action ..

That ship sailed long ago. I haven't prompted him in quite a while . as to MIL scene. As I said throughout these almost two years . he's the best of the best at FIXIT chores ... on it . like white on rice. So .. to say "he's no help" .. isn't completely accurate .. but I know what she is referring to . she is referring to the hands-on care . and the doc visits and sorting thru all that . the healthcare stuff . she's right . he's useless . .always has been . .always will be.

Why isn't he going there for Xmas? I dunno.

He mentioned it that one time, . I guess in a veiled attempt on his part .. to try to start a fight . when he got the response from me, declining to partake of any trip to IL for xmas . not sure what precisely was his motivation . because I've not heard another thing about it. And as I said, I don't prompt anymore. I said it when he suggested it .. "if you wanna go, do that", and I meant it. I don't care . he can go .. I don't want to.

Curious to me that we'd already covered the ground that I intend to exit any c'giving role and explained .. prior . that I won't be doing doc visits and hospital vigil .. etc.

And she then .. was asking . later in the conversation .. much later in it .. much else talked about .. but then we were back on the topic of AL . and FL .. IL .. so forth and she had then asked what are DH's thoughts . and qualifying her question that she should probably ask him and I confirmed she should talk to him . but then expressed to her . that I have asked of him . how's AL in FL gonna work, I am not gonna do the whole doc visits/lab work/procedures . that's still gonna be part of her world .. how's that gonna work.

For her to then ask "So even if she's in AL . you still won't be taking her to the doc?".

We already covered that ground. What part of "I am exiting that role" . was not made abundantly clear?

I suspect it will take a little bit of time to be absorbed and actually "own" what was said to her .. and . probably some more attempts . along the way to try to engage me in some way or other. But I'm on guard for it . and no . won't be stepping to it.

On the piece about her wanting happiness for her mom . .etc. I get it ..

As she put it .. "if I had the $ .. I mean .. she wants the most in the world to stay in her own home .. that's what she wants .. if I had the $ .. I'd hire an around the clock caregiver .. if we could ever find someone she'd tolerate .. that's a whole other issue .. but .. if I had the $ I'd do it".

My response to that: "Look I'm not a monster .. I don't say and do the things I do from any standpoint of being mean for the sake of being
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Dorker, you did Great, Absolutely Great in your Conversation with your SIL! You stuck to your convictions, and laid it all out on the line, I'm so Proud of you!

While this might be a first of many, I think you've given her much to think about going foreword, and it sounds like your hubby is going to get an ear full, when she finally gets a chance to sit down with him and discuss her care going forward, but I do not see MIL ever coming back to live in AL in the future, and from the sounds of it, unlikely that she could ever afford it, with her house being in RM, unless she brings in greater than 3500/mo minimum, and/or she still has excess monies available to her in the equity in her home. I've never heard of Medicaid picking up the tab of AL housing, unless there are waiver programs in your state, maybe?

SIl would be wise to look into this Way in advance of her needing it, so that she is not shocked by the options. I know my FIL's AL rent alone was 3700/mo, and that was completely independent living, no other services whatsoever, everything else is alacarte, which meant that my husband went over daily to take care of all the incidentals, med management, showering, doc appointments and all his Many errands, plus the visiting too, it was a Lot, so you are wise to make that clear that you are truly Out Of It!

I see her staying on with SIL from this point forward, and DIL and Hubby should seriously think about selling her home while the housing market is Still healthy, IMO. Thursday hopefully she will benifit from any residual equity that she might have after RM is satisfied. If she did the RM years ago, she might be surprised that she has gained equity over and above that of the benifits she received from the the RM. At least that way, they will be prepared when and if she does need to go into AL or Nursing home care.

It's a Lot to think about, but better now while she is relatively stable healthwise, and not worry about it when under duress.

Aside from a couple of snarky comments from SIL, I'm So glad your Convo went well! Whew, I'll bet your glad That's over!
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It puts a huge stress on SIL when she feels she has to answer to YOU???????????

"cause you're so mean and controlling? What has she been smoking to even bring something like that UP? I guess b/c SHE does second-third-fourth guess YOU when you were caring for MIL, she must feel you are just as invested--big surprise, sis, You're not.

Well, it is good that you talked. the ice has been broken. I'm not the least surprised that she is exhausted and frustrated--and also that NOTHING has been done to really move this elephant along. Just the PT and better overall care, which she could easily obtain in an IL situation ANYWHERE,

Last night I talked to my oldest daughter about this exact dynamic--how I absolutely do NOT want to hang around and be a PITA when I've outlived my usefulness. Told her under NO circumstances am I to live with ANY of my kids.

Sounds like SIL is runnning a hamster wheel there in IL, with no plans to move MIL back to FL---but DH should (and has NO EXCUSE to not) go see his mother over Christmas. Yes, airline tickets are expensive, he could go after the actual holidays, but it's the only way SIL will actually get him to talk. She's such an indecisive thing, it'd make me insane to deal with her.

That's how I have to communicate with 3 of my sibs--I have to track them down and almost force them physically to sit down and talk to me.

Well, the olive branch has been extended, You have said your peace. SIL was probably kind of shocked you are well and truly OUT, but stick to those guns.

It will never cease to amaze me the amount of fussing and hand wringing that goes on over one cranky old lady. She's trained her kids well, that's for sure.

The lack of communication in this family makes mine look like the Waltons--and I haven't spoken to 2 pf my sibs since last January--and don't see when I will be talking to them, or why I would in the near future.

SMH. What a life of utter denial. What would SIL do if MIL dies? Seriously? I think she might have a major come-apart.

Glad you did get to talk. That's a start.
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Lizzy, the problem is in her own words....she wants her mother’s happiness, whatever it takes. She doesn’t want her mother to be blue or unhappy. Because she can’t accept this is an impossible goal, she’ll grind herself and B into the ground. What’s that saying. “ or die trying?”
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Imagine my surprise that she was surprised that you won’t be helping with Drs appts, etc. No I’m not surprised! How many times has DH stated that he has told her that you are out of this. Something just doesn’t add up.
1) He has not told her repeatedly that you are out of this
2) She doesn’t believe him when he says you are out of this
3)She doesn’t give a rip about what anybody says unless it meets her agenda
4)She thought by whining about how bad things are for her and B (which I’m sure they are) you could be baited and guilted back into the situation.
5)She has cognitive decline, dementia, geez Dorker, what is SILs problem?
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You are doing the right thing, the responsible thing, to step away and refuse to get involved in any caregiving, doctor appts. etc., even if Mom does go to an AL.   Thing is, if you agreed to the AL and doctor appts., then mom would come to FL, temporarily into an AL and then home again.  She could not be kept in AL against her will.  So I hope you don't fall for that maneuver.  Fact is, mom needs more care than an;yone can provide at home, unless you guys can pay shifts of caregivers.
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Good for you Dorker! It sounds as if you had a polite conversation. Clearly SIL was  under the assumption that if MIL is in AL in FL that you would still participate - like for carting to the DR. Clearly she realizes DH is useless. Hopefully now she realizes 1) how compromised MIL really is 2) how useless DH is and 3) that you are really and truly out of it except for the occasional visit.

Once all of the above really and truly sinks in - she is going to have some hard thinking of the best place for MIL to be - and that is likely to be AL in IL or NH in IL. There is just no one who will step and fetch to her satisfaction. It will be all on her and BIL.

Good start - keep holding the "I'm truly out of it line" i liked your approach - that your life has changed too and with the increasing needs - there just isn't a way for you to go back to Chief Steppin'-Fetcher.

I do have a sneaky feeling that this isn't exactly the end of trying to get your involvement though. Also - i feel that DH is a bit of a sh$#. This is his mom and he is dumping all on SIL. No plans for him to go to IL at Christmas and at least see his mom and maybe help BIL with all of the errands or to give SIL a few hours respite? That man just doesn't get it. If he were my DH, I'd be eyeing the shovel and the trunk of my car.....
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(cont'd)

Should she be hospitalized . oh the countless other times I've been on the scene there to sort thru the goings on . and be a part of all that . I am removing myself as that going forward . so how that looks as any AL here in FL .. I don't know . I don't have the answers, and it's not mine to sort thru.

SIL: "You wouldn't really want to be a part of doc visits or anything even if she was in an AL there in FL?".

Me: "No . I really am exiting all that .. SIL .. some of what goes on is superfluous and a waste of time . .let me just cite the edema issue as one . of many .. her with the never ending edema (she interrupts at this point to tell me that the edema is a non issue up there . she has only had to take Lasix 3 x's in the whole time she's been there) and I then interject .. "yea and as I've told you before . when she's in your care . her world looks a lot different . you are getting her a sandwich . she has to do that on her own when you aren't there . you are letting the dog in and out .. she has to do that on her own . when you aren't there . she really doesn't have to do a whole lot when you're caring for her . thus she's off her feet a lot .. and elevated .. and so . there ya go . but that whole thing . that whole edema thing .. a waste of time . if I had a nickel for every time I carted her to the doc . on that issue with the swelling ankles and feet and round and round it would go . then cautioning as to the meds, . or support hose . her refusing support hose . and we know she's not gonna take the meds . finds it too difficult to get up and down and go to the bathroom all the time . and so we know its' gonna continue to be an issue . and so .. wasting my time to address it . constantly . my life has changed . her needs have increased .. some of what goes on . is a colossal waste of my time . to be chasing after it . and I'm exiting that . going forward.

Lots more said . none of it as important really . will cover more later .. gotta run for now . on the way out the door for a bit ..

But in the end . there is a meeting of the minds . that she too thinks it best that I exit it all . (I guess she maybe under the impression I'd still engage . if she's in AL . and take her to docs . .and so sorting that thru .. left untalked about) .. she had to go .. she had to go in and retrieve her mom from PT .. and she and I talked maybe 30 mins .. and .. so there ya have it.

I feel it went relatively well . and no . I don't feel I've seen/heard the end of all this .. but hold firm I intend to do . and I can cite .. if needed numerous reasons why I'm at this juncture ...... didn't today . .she ran out of time . had to go . but we did talk that we would talk again . at some point .. and so that was that.
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(cont'd)

Not gonna be a part of that going forward .. I just can't .. it's not good for my existence . and in the end . your mom's needs have changed and increased enormously over the last few years . and that's not gonna get better . and I just can't keep stepping to that need .. and my life too has changed .. and I can't do it anymore . and in the end ... at the root of all this . you and I have a difference of opinion in approach to all this .. I see things one way . you see them another . you hold the trump card, she's your mom .. I wouldn't do things the way you do it .

SIL: No . .and I can't do things the way you'd do it .. she's my mom . .and so obviously I'm going to be more vested in her happiness and whatever it takes to achieve that, as best I can .. I mean . I just . I don't know how long she has .. left on this earth .. and I don't want her to leave this world sad and blue and in some place where she's unhappy .. and so .. I guess .. for the time being . at least for now . I can't even look at what happens tomorrow .. or a month from now . I just .. to tell ya the truth . it's a LOT just to get thru every day . and so that's what we are doing .me and B . we just do the best we can .. each day . to get thru that day ..

She goes on to say: "I mean on some level she does realize that AL is maybe going to have to be an option . but it just make her so sad . and there are just so many unanswered questions even as to that .. I mean she'd have to qualify for Medicaid . and so .. what would the setting be .. as Medicaid qualified .. and .. she doesn't want to be in IL . .. she wants to be in FL . and what's that gonna look like . I mean .. she can't keep her dog no matter what . if I could get her to agree to stay here . and in AL .. then I can bring her dog to her . to visit . but .. her dog . her damn dog is her life's blood . it's her reason for living .. and so .. there's just so much to sort thru and to be honest I haven't even gone there . other than to suggest that may be the route at some point . but leg work . no .. haven't even gone there .. we're just . me and B . doing the best we can .. every day . he's an enormous help . he doesn't mind walking the dog . he does it 2 x's a day .. he doesn't mind running errands . and so he does that .. and it's enormously helpful and he's just so patient and understanding of it all . it has been rough . it has really really upended our worlds .. in large measure . this whole thing . and it's taken some real adjustment . but we are adjusting . we're coping .. and we just do the best we can .. ".

Me: "Well you do have my sympathy and I do understand . having lived somewhat of what you refer to in it all... housing her here for hurricanes .. and being on call in a sense to her needs . as I try to manage my own life . and her needs .. so I do understand how tough all this is .. I do get that . and I sympathize with you on that .. but going forward . I just can't continue to be a part of any healthcare initiatives with her.. ".

SIL: "Well what does DH have to say . what are his thoughts .. I guess I should talk to him".

ME: "Yes you need to talk to him . I'm taking myself out of the dialogue that should, IMO . be transpiring between the two of you .. you guys need to be the ones working this thing . your mom's care and the juncture she is at with her state of being . it's reached a crucial point IMO . and your approach and mine differ and so it's best that me and my opinions and wants/wishes . just exit out of all this. I can tell you that I have voiced some concern to him . as to what AL and in FL would like ultimately .. I mean .. she is still going to need to be carted to doc offices and tests and lab work, etc .. and you know . your brother is ill equipped to be seeing to that . he works . and so who is gonna do it . I've voiced that to him .. I'm stepping away from all that . should she be hospitalized . and someone
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Well. The ice has been broken finally. Talked to SIL. Went, relatively well I'd say.

She started in telling me what all goes on, on their end . .she'd dropped her mom off at PT . and was trying to reach out to me .. I missed her call again, of course. I'd been in the kitchen . I don't carry my cell phone on me .. when I'm traveling around the house.

But this time, I did go to it within just a few mins .. and saw it had been her . and so I called her back.

I started out .. once she spewed forth all that goes on, on their end . seeing a neurologist .. to try to zero in on the neuropathy .. blah blah blah . on and on that went ..with all that goes on with the medical front.

Once she stopped .. I said to her, "well what have you and DH come up with as any plan . you've had her now . .do you now . are you at the conclusion she can no longer live alone"

Her answer to that, ..

SIL: "Well . with DH nothing . to be honest with you he is no help . .it's just me and B . and it's on us . and I know that . he's no help .. and so .. not really I haven't worked with him on any of it .. but .. no . it wouldn't be good to leave her alone anymore .. she just .. I don't know . some days are better than others with her . some days she's really downtrodden and negative .. and other days she isnt' .. and some days . she takes her meds .. and does it without prompt . other days . no she has to be repeatedly reminded . she can't take care of her dog anymore, that's on us to do .. I try to involve her, so she feels more useful .. where I can anyway .. but .. for the most part, that too is up to me and B .. we're the ones caring for the dog .. and so . no . it wouldn't be good to leave her alone .. she just doesn't manage".

Her continuing on: "I mean it's hard . sometimes she says things . but me and B remind her all the time . we know she's had a real hard time facing the reality of her situation . that's not news . we all know that .. and sometimes she says things like . she just wants to go home and she can do this . she can manage . but we remind her that really . no she can't .

Me: Well I wanted to let you know . the decision that I have made is that i will be stepping away from anything c'giving in all this .. it's just .. in the end . .SIL . in the end . at the root of it all . she's your mom . and IMO .. it's really at a juncture her care .. it requires more than I can continue to step to .. and I have my opinions about what should happen . but they don't amount to a hill of beans in the broader scheme of things .. not in the end. .. she's your mom . yours and DH's .. and .. ya know .. you guys and in conjunction as best you see fit . you guys need to be the ones on the page forward . without any input from me . and so going forward .. I will be stepping out of that role . .entirely,

SIL: "Well . I think too that is probably for the best .. this is really a huge responsibility and overwhelming at times . it really is .. I know that .. and it's not fair to you . to have to carry the burden of all this .. but also .. it puts a huge stress on me where I feel like I have to answer to you ..I mean in the end . you and I could probably get into a heated shouting match with one another over all this . but I don't want it to go there .. I value our relationship .. and so I want to try to salvage that if we can . in all this . .and so I do agree with you, it's probably best that you step away from it all".

Me: Yes . well that's the approach I am taking going forward . I want a relationship with her, but to me, . it's going to look a lot different . in that I will be just truly limited to what I picture a DIL to be .. I will go visit her . if she's able . she and I can go to lunch . I'll take her some incidentals she might need .. maybe occasionally . but anything to do with doc visits and assimilating that info . and so forth . not gonna be a part of all that going forward . and hospital vigils to sort thru
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Oh I'm okay ... it didn't stress or puzzle me. It was just striking to me that one person's perception of it all can exhibit humour in it all ... the next person could almost break out in tears.

Maybe another stark difference ... she nor her brother live in close enough proximity to the mom to be much of anything hands-on, daily dilemmas.

They are both also very much on the same page with it all.

Maybe just the differences cited ... at least partly, how they stay grounded and find some of it funny.

I'm not at all questioning my resolve for the approach I am taking. Not a bit.

And you guys are so right. I can only control my reaction to what swirls in the way of the b'chit with it all.

Resolved to do just that precisely.
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True, Lizzy, you can't control what they say, do, how they treat you, but you can control how you react to it. The anxiety is eating you alive, Dorker. Meanwhile, they are going on their merry way. That's not fair, is it?

Do you think you could think of it like, "Oh, there they go again..." whenever DH gets on one of his diatribes about the chit canning or whatever, or when you hear that SIL is "upset" about her texts being blocked? You know they are just projecting, that's all it is...and in an hour they are going to act like everything is hunky dory, until the next time. It's their M.O.

Believe me, I know it's hard not to react and to just shrug it off...but it's not good for your blood pressure and well-being to stay anxious and stressed out about it all the time either, particularly when they're not too worried about it and it's their own mom. Not fair that you should be the one losing sleep and peace over it all.
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Dorker,

They, SIL and DH are gonna feel how they are gonna feel, anger, resentment, whatever. I believe there are no words, presented in ANY way by you that are going to change how either of them feel. I think only time and circumstance will change how they feel.

I hate to think you are grinding your mind thinking there is something you can say that will change how they feel. It’s my opinion that you are wasting precious energy if that is what you are doing.

Can you wrap your mind around “letting them pound sand” if that’s the way they feel?
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Lizzy: No I am at peace with myself .. if she went to her maker 10 years from now and me walking the walk I've placed myself in .. I would be okay with it .. I've done all I can do .. from my own emotional well being stand point . but also from the standpoint that her care needs are more than any one lay person can step to. I'm satisfied with that.

Now if only I could get the two parties that need to be on board with whatever it is they need to do . or not do .. and leave me out of it . .and not treat me with disdain and anger ..

Then . maybe I could begin to see the light of day as to .. some humor. What a concept that might be.

I really can't even envision it.
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