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https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y8r2gk0vyo How much say should people have over where they end their lives? Is keeping our elders safe in a care facility always the right answer?(To be clear I'm not talking about those with dementia)
Wow, I have to admit each time I see this "defiant nuns" post I am tickled anew. I don't trust them for a second, cwillie, but it surely does show the power of media.
Here would be my "deal" for the nuns. A good attorney at their beck and call. And as soon as the church tries anything, back to social media they go!
In case anyone is still interested BBC has posted an update:
Runaway nuns can stay in Alpine convent if they leave social media
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0l9z176lnlo
I can't say I trust the offer since it seems to include isolating the women, not only from social media but also by disallowing outsiders from accessing the convent. Isn't that the entire support system that made the move possible? 🤔
I am totally in the middle of this mind struggle. Is asking someone to live in or making someone live in IL, AL, or MC okay?
My dad has an alzheimer's diagnosis and my mom is still very capable of being independent. We moved them into IL about two months ago. He hates all of it. ALL OF IT. She doesn't like it but understands the reasons for the move. He was making decisions that were putting them both in danger. Twice she was injured because of his unsafe choices.
If it was just her, she would still be at home. She is totally independent other than she doesn't want to cook. If it was just him, I might allow him to stay home, hire part-time, in-home care takers and "let the chips fall where they may."
I am currently working on the idea that it may actually be time to move him to AL and she can move home (their home is literally next door to mine). However every conversation I have with her meets with resistence. "He can't live there without her." "What would we do with his dog?" "He will never agree to live there without me." "He still understands a lot and doesn't need that kind of help." Yet, in less than a four hour time period, he was too unstable to take the dog out or to walk to the elevator to go to dinner. But when she wasn't in the apartment he decided to take a shower, without anyone to help if he fell. There is no logical reasoning regarding safety anymore on his part.
Today they stopped by the house and he went inside, sat in the living room, and then told my mom, "I really want to just come home. I will NEVER climb on the roof again." But....he has alzheimers, so yes, he probably would climb on the roof if a limb was touching it. Should we let him? He would have the autonomy to choose how to live out the end. But, what if he falls on her...again...and breaks more than her foot?
UGH....I want them to live the end with dignity and autonomy. But....I don't want him to cause her life to be shorter.
I would rather live at home and die with autonomy than to live under someone else's control. I just don't know what the best practice is....for dignity, for autonomy, for kindness, for respect.
We're all caregivers here so I think we understand that some people do need more care than they realize. But I've come across some things that really do trouble me - for example an acquaintance's parent recently moved into a retirement home (assisted living) and I was part of a discussion about not "allowing" this person to go out to a friend's house, and also how they had forbidden a granddaughter to take them out, because they might fall. The discussion turned to how stubborn and tricky "they" can be (this coming from someone whose parents both had dementia).
We've told people on the forum that nursing homes and assisted living facilities aren't jails, but it seems like sometimes they really are...
What a great article, cwillie. Lots of thoughts here from me. Firstly I am with the nuns, BUT............................
This isn't a matter of what's best for the nuns. The church wants the building and wants to sell it and they basically have kicked them out. The article says this: "The community was officially dissolved at the beginning of 2024, and the remaining nuns were granted lifelong right of residence, as long as their health and mental capacity allowed."
Looks like the nuns gave their lives to the church and the church has sold them down the river, to me. They will care for them, now they are no longer of use, but will care for them as they decide they "should be" cared for. Given that the sisters made this bargain with the devil so to speak, they now have little to say. They are no longer of use, and the Church wants that building.
As they say--"follow the money".
As to this story in general, I more and more agree that we are robbing some seniors of choice at the end of life. And of course as I approach that end, my thinking changes from "getting care for those failing, at any cost to what 'they want'" to "we all die. Might some of us not prefer to die a bit earlier due to lack of 24/7 care, than to live an extra week, month, year "in care".
As I answer on Forum over the last four years I see myself changing in advising people that we all do die, that there are times that allowing someone with mental capacity to make their own decision on where to do it might not be an option.
I do now see it as well from the standpoint of a daughter who lives states away, worrying "how's it going", and wondering why being in IL or ALF might not be preferrable to my being, with a partner even older, on our own. I see where the thinking is heading, that is to say. Having CHILDREN in their 60s/70s means they are already beginning to deal with hips, knees, prostates, etc. And added to their worries are the still-living, but not getting any younger, elders.
Complex all of this. But I am tempted to "join the order" with these nuns, rather than enter care for the aged.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
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You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
I don't trust them for a second, cwillie, but it surely does show the power of media.
Here would be my "deal" for the nuns. A good attorney at their beck and call. And as soon as the church tries anything, back to social media they go!
Runaway nuns can stay in Alpine convent if they leave social media
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0l9z176lnlo
I can't say I trust the offer since it seems to include isolating the women, not only from social media but also by disallowing outsiders from accessing the convent. Isn't that the entire support system that made the move possible? 🤔
It sounds like the village is really stepping up with support.
"Before I die in that old people's home, I would rather go to a meadow and enter eternity that way," said Sister Bernadette.
My dad has an alzheimer's diagnosis and my mom is still very capable of being independent. We moved them into IL about two months ago. He hates all of it. ALL OF IT. She doesn't like it but understands the reasons for the move. He was making decisions that were putting them both in danger. Twice she was injured because of his unsafe choices.
If it was just her, she would still be at home. She is totally independent other than she doesn't want to cook. If it was just him, I might allow him to stay home, hire part-time, in-home care takers and "let the chips fall where they may."
I am currently working on the idea that it may actually be time to move him to AL and she can move home (their home is literally next door to mine). However every conversation I have with her meets with resistence.
"He can't live there without her."
"What would we do with his dog?"
"He will never agree to live there without me."
"He still understands a lot and doesn't need that kind of help."
Yet, in less than a four hour time period, he was too unstable to take the dog out or to walk to the elevator to go to dinner. But when she wasn't in the apartment he decided to take a shower, without anyone to help if he fell. There is no logical reasoning regarding safety anymore on his part.
Today they stopped by the house and he went inside, sat in the living room, and then told my mom, "I really want to just come home. I will NEVER climb on the roof again." But....he has alzheimers, so yes, he probably would climb on the roof if a limb was touching it. Should we let him? He would have the autonomy to choose how to live out the end. But, what if he falls on her...again...and breaks more than her foot?
UGH....I want them to live the end with dignity and autonomy. But....I don't want him to cause her life to be shorter.
I would rather live at home and die with autonomy than to live under someone else's control. I just don't know what the best practice is....for dignity, for autonomy, for kindness, for respect.
Alzheimer's and Dementia are horrible.
But I've come across some things that really do trouble me - for example an acquaintance's parent recently moved into a retirement home (assisted living) and I was part of a discussion about not "allowing" this person to go out to a friend's house, and also how they had forbidden a granddaughter to take them out, because they might fall. The discussion turned to how stubborn and tricky "they" can be (this coming from someone whose parents both had dementia).
We've told people on the forum that nursing homes and assisted living facilities aren't jails, but it seems like sometimes they really are...
Lots of thoughts here from me. Firstly I am with the nuns, BUT............................
This isn't a matter of what's best for the nuns. The church wants the building and wants to sell it and they basically have kicked them out.
The article says this: "The community was officially dissolved at the beginning of 2024, and the remaining nuns were granted lifelong right of residence, as long as their health and mental capacity allowed."
Looks like the nuns gave their lives to the church and the church has sold them down the river, to me. They will care for them, now they are no longer of use, but will care for them as they decide they "should be" cared for. Given that the sisters made this bargain with the devil so to speak, they now have little to say. They are no longer of use, and the Church wants that building.
As they say--"follow the money".
As to this story in general, I more and more agree that we are robbing some seniors of choice at the end of life. And of course as I approach that end, my thinking changes from "getting care for those failing, at any cost to what 'they want'" to "we all die. Might some of us not prefer to die a bit earlier due to lack of 24/7 care, than to live an extra week, month, year "in care".
As I answer on Forum over the last four years I see myself changing in advising people that we all do die, that there are times that allowing someone with mental capacity to make their own decision on where to do it might not be an option.
I do now see it as well from the standpoint of a daughter who lives states away, worrying "how's it going", and wondering why being in IL or ALF might not be preferrable to my being, with a partner even older, on our own. I see where the thinking is heading, that is to say. Having CHILDREN in their 60s/70s means they are already beginning to deal with hips, knees, prostates, etc. And added to their worries are the still-living, but not getting any younger, elders.
Complex all of this. But I am tempted to "join the order" with these nuns, rather than enter care for the aged.
Thanks for this interesting and fun article.