Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Xray,
I am so proud of you! 🎉👏
It is funny that you brought up about mommy issues because I was wondering the samething the other night! Asking myself did I make the decisions I did because of my NM?
In my own journey in this narcissistic nightmare I have found that I no longer care what my NM thinks of me...I don't need her love, validation, or approval! Moreover, if I want my NM to do one thing that she'll do the opposite...if I think it's a bad idea she'll do it anyway; therefore, I have learned to either keep my mouth shut because there no reason for me to say anything or just let her do what she wants to do and leave HER with the mess, which isn't always easy! You are doing the right thing by making a list of what you'll do and what you won't do! Of course, your NM will feel it's not fair because to them it is never fair that they can't have their way or they get stuck with the consequences! I just love how our NMs turn everything around and make it about them and never think how their ACTIONS effect us!! I do find that once you confront your NM it gets easier as long as you stand your ground! You can do this!!


Elaine, Good for you for loving your son and standing by his side! My NM would tell you that she loves gay people, but she taught me to hate them and that they are sinners! However, I had a manager who was gay at my first job and she taught me so much and she was a great person and a patience person. I grew up having many gay friends and my NM told me that I would burn in h3ll with them; of course, my dad put my NM in her place and she never spoke about my friends again!!


Piper,
It is strange that we can have a great relationship with one parent and not the other and yet, we still feel that we are not good enough or not loveable. I helped took care of my dad when he had cancer and it is Very Different! I love my dad dearly and had all the patience in the world with him and no patience for my NM! I am just done with her selfishness and how everything is about her to no thought of me...my health...my life...my dreams...just her! I used to tell her that stress has and can put me in the hospital, but she just ignores it and when I have been hospitalized all she could think about was who would take care of HER!

Chris, Thank you for sharing your story. I offen wish that my NM would have walked out the door and never return, but perhaps I would still feel the same way. I see that now! Whether our NMs left, worked full-time, or stayed home (like mine did) we were abandoned and made to feel less than! And we are still paying the price for their selfishness!!


It is so sad how we all have anxiety because of one person. The person who is suppose to love and except us.

EP, I'm glad your mom liked the bday dinner. The phone thing is a BIG sign of decline imo, you are right. When she's not thinking clearly, it doesn't dawn on her to check her phone and say gee why is nobody calling on my bday? I can't tell you the trouble mine has with the phone,,,,,I can write a BOOK! Just one thing she does now is forgets to push the Off button (she has a cordless landline in her room) so when I call, there's a busy signal. I've had to call the MC to go in there to turn the phone off on more than one occasion. And this happens right after I call her and she pushes the wrong button and disconnects the call. So you'd think she'd say to herself, Oh Lea is gonna call back in a minute, maybe I should check the phone. Nope. That's dementia.

My dad was a dear man too. I miss him a lot, he passed in 2015. I think my mother is still alive bc he's just not ready to deal with Her again after 68 years of marriage 🤣

Mom does not have a UTI. She's back on Cymbalta and the dementia has worsened as expected, but SOME of the pain has decreased. Her mood is better in general, less complaining, which is nice.....but it differs from day to day.

Beatty, I always join my mother in her reality to the extent I am able. It's easier that way, truthfully. The pizza made me sick and I don't take Xanax unless it's a real emergency. 😮

Jodi....I am glad you did what you did for YOUR sake. Nobody understands the anxiety we suffer at the hands of these women. My DH is always saying that my mother makes me crazy and I shouldn't allow it. REALLY ????? Like HOW exactly do I go about sloughing off ALL of the chronic aggravation and misery she creates for me? For him to even utter such words shows the pure lack of understanding of the ENTIRE situation. Like there's an OFF button any of us can simply flip whenever we need to. Like the blood pressure issue isn't a very physical side effect of an emotional issue, huh? Stand your ground Jodi, and God bless and guide you, and all of us traveling this rocky road. One day at a time, right?

Chris thanks for sharing what happened when your mom left. It was abandonment. But it's also her narcissism. I have a very good friend I've known since 2nd grade. Her mother left too when she was about 14/15 and my friend was left with her dad. Her mom ended up getting dementia and lived with my friend the last few years, she died a few months ago. My friend misses her dearly. The difference is her mother was not a narcissist. She was a loving woman but went through a crisis and wanted out of her marriage badly. The most hurtful thing to a child imo is a narcissistic parent. Parents don't have to be perfect, just don't be a narcissist.

How did things go with your dad? I'm sometimes amazed at how my relationship with my parents was so different for each of them.

I cared for my dad too when he had cancer. That lasted about 3 years, and I was so devastated when he died. My care experience with him was literally the polar opposite of what I'm doing now with my mom. I cherished my time with him so much, even doing things like helping him with colostomy care. I wanted to be around him as much as I could. Yeah, polar opposite indeed.
Maybe I had some false hope that I could do good job with my mom too. Well, that obviously isn't the case.

I'm still giving myself a year to see what happens. I don't see that I have much of a choice all things considered. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm not willing to do anything close to 24/7 care, or even much more than I am doing right now. Therefore things will have to change. My mom's needs are only going to increase.

By the way, I wanted to mention something that happened on her birthday. Things went well for her at my place because we made it her day. She loved the food and flowers. She went home about 6PM. The next morning I got a text from her, she was upset. Apparently she had turned her phone to mute, and missed calls from 5 people. My son, brother, niece and 2 friends.

It made me wonder where her head was when she went back home, it was still early for her. She expects attention on her birthday, no doubt about that, so when the calls never came, how did she NOT think to look at her phone, and why was it muted anyway? For some reason this happens frequently. And every time I show her where the on/mute is, and she denies touching it.
Just another incident that proves to me my mom is declining. I mean I know she is, but these incidents still rattle me. I could see someone brushing it off as nothing. Big deal, she accidently hit the mute button. But I see the bigger picture. Her NOT even looking at her phone on her birthday (a big deal to HER) is very OFF.

Hey Jodi, good idea to give your mom a list! But I still hope she doesn't make the move. There is a reason your pulse was 152. I feel compelled to tell you to keep trying to stop this move if you can.

Lea, I think Barb had a good suggestion about checking for a UTI. Is the cymbalta still keeping her mood better? One shoe??? What were they thinking? I wish I could bring you some pizza and Xanax!

Jodi, you ROCK!

Lea, have your mom tested for a UTI, maybe? (((((Hugs))))))

Xray 💪💪💪

I can feel your NO muscle is RIPPED! Explained yourself with confidence - I will do this - but I won't do that. This is the holy middle ground I try for... that sweet spot between passive (yes Ma'am) & aggressive (no way get ef) = Assertive.

Now the ball is in Mom's court. She can decide to 'change her mind' either graciously, or rediciously "I never said I wanted to move!" or go ahead with stubbornness hoping to force your obedience.

Keep us updated.

Lea, "some man" had to come & help was the regular caregiver! Oh boy!

It really gives insight into her reality... how she is in a different world to your reality. She can't travel back to normal thinking land... so I suppose you join her ideas for a bit of peace? But I'd be visiting pizza xanax planet for some time out too.

Jodi, well done! You got onto that list pretty quickly - it was all inside your head - you just needed to get it out and onto paper! I suspect you have just lit the fuse.. expect the fireworks to go off soon! I am so happy for you that you’ve done this and are feeling better for it!

All, I’ll take that pizza too, but I’ll swap the meds for a bottle of Italian red.

Chris,

I sent my NM a list of my expectations via text. I also forwarded it my brothers so they would know exactly what I said to her. She has a way of twisting things!

In short, I told her that I will do her shopping once a week and visit.
We will bring her to our house for holidays.
I will take her to her Doctor appointments as long as they don't conflict with mine . So we need to communicate about our appointments.

I can not set up her apartment due to my recent surgery. She will need to do it herself or hire someone to do it for her .

She needs to plan her future as if I am not in it!

I haven't gotten a response, but I will keep you posted.

I actually am feeling free for the first time in a long time!

I have completely spoken my mind to her!!

Let's see how she responds!

elaine: Sending hugs.💛

Lealonnie, I’ll come join you with the Xanax and pizza, lol. I need both of those right now!!

I absolutely LOVE you all!!

Thanks for the great advice!!

(((HUGS)))

Elaine; my mother DID disown me when I started DATING a man she was prejudiced against! Yep, they actually BOTH threw me out of the house at just barely 18 years old and I rented a room in someone's house (upstairs) for $200 a month.

Jodi, your NM has already thought long & hard about EVERYTHING she expects from you once she moves into her new place, and is prepping you nicely for all of her tantrums and guilt trips NOW, so you can be SO nerved up by the time she does move in, you'll be willing to move heaven & earth just to shut her up. Make sure you speak to your therapist about a good, solid plan of action to have in place NOW so that you can ward off ALL of the BS that's coming. And NOT feel ONE OUNCE OF GUILT over it, either.

stilldealing; it truly blows my mind that your NM wants you all to change her diapers and tend to her every need when she has the $$$$ for 24/7 in home caregivers. Just shows to go ya how these women are, at their core. Willing and gleeful to watch US die of a nervous breakdown or sheer exhaustion rather than have others help them out. Disgusting and shameful behavior. I'm sorry you are going through this. Sending you a hug of compassion and understanding.

Mom is sundowning hard now and we had a horrendous conversation, if you can call it that, on the phone last night. She was 'looking all over the apartments' for me and then was ranting about her dead sister and all sorts of horrible things, and managed NOT to eat dinner she was so confused. The 'conversation' ended (as usual) with her telling me how she wants to die so so badly, and how she knows I don't like when she says that, but she's gonna say it ANYWAY, b/c I have no idea how horrible her life is. I commiserated with her, agreed with her even FFS, what am I supposed to do? What CAN I do? That's what these women don't understand; they just want US to absorb THEIR pain.

The other day she told me she 'fell three times in the shower and some man' had to pick her up; it took me quite a while to get to the bottom of things but she did NOT fall and the 'some man' was her regular CAREGIVER who was called in to help the CG that was showering her when she was slipping. Even WITH the shower shoes she's again slipping around in the shower! Losing core strength has been a very bad thing for her so now I had to get her another new mat for the shower. Also, she has an infected big toe (which makes no sense since she's w/c bound) and the doctor ordered her NOT to wear a shoe on that foot so they have her wearing ONE SHOE ONLY. When the nurse called me just now, I lost it. WTF would you have her in ONE SHOE, that is DANGEROUS? Put her in anti skid socks (which I'm also ordering extras of) and that's that, until she's 100% healed. DH had to go over there AGAIN to 'fix' the new adjustable bed b/c it wasn't working; turned out the CORD was UNPLUGGED from the BOX. HELLO????????????? I feel like I need 2 Xanax and a large pizza right now.

Xray-I applaud you for 'ripping off the bandaid"! Now just try and stick with it. By continuing to ask your mother how/what she is going to do if/when she moves into an apartment, it will hopefully accomplish 2 things: (1)make her actually think about it (instead of relying on you to clean up her messes), and (2) send her the clear message you are NOT going to clean up the mess. Try to disregard the crying and yelling and all that, because your NM is counting on you to back down when she uses those practiced histrionics. See, if YOU change, she has no choice but to change. She doesn't want change, so will up the ante to keep the status quo. Just keep repeating a few stat phrases, such as: "Sorry, Mum, I can't do that; Sorry Mum, that doesn't work ..." She will of course accuse you of only thinking of yourself, being selfish, ungrateful, whatever...don't buy it. Quit thinking about her as your mother; ask yourself how would you deal with this person if you were a neighbor, and a neighbor acted like this. You would probably give the antics pretty short shrift.
In my case, my NM is trying to force her elderly, not in very good shape adult children to provide physical caretaking of her, in her own home, whilst she lives her last weeks/months. If she had no resources, then this would not necessarily be so unreasonable. However, her insurance will pay every penny of first class inpatient hospice care in a private facility. But! She wants US to change her diapers, and clean up her messes, and spoon feed her, and listen to her endless rewriting of her history, our histories..whatever...
since I am NM's designated 'blacksheep' child, it is my job (siblings won't say 'boo' to NM) to repeatedly remind her that we (the adult children) are in no position to provide 24/7 home based caretaking (thus forcing her to accept she is going to have to make a better decision for her care). She hisses (literally), puffs, sighs, sneers, makes nasty remarks, tries to play the guilt card, but guess what? She is now talking to her pt home aid about going to a hospice facility.
I plan on sticking to my plan. She can stick to whatever plan (or not) she wants. I am not, and will not, be her keeper.

Chris,

So true!! If it's not all about them, it's not worth caring about!

I think writing out my expectations is a great idea!

Thanks!😘

Jodi, amazing that the NM language is the same whether you are in the US or UK. My mother said she wished she was dead, whenever things weren't going the way she wanted them to go. It's ironic really when for a narcssist, their very existence is centre stage for everything in their lives. Here's a thought...why don't you make a list of YOUR expectations of what YOU will and won't do if your mother makes this move. Give her a copy to read and think over. If she still goes ahead with the move, she can't say she wasn't warned....

Well I ripped the band aid off this morning! It was pretty much as I expected.

Before I called her, my Fitbit said my pulse was 152 bpm!!!

I calmly asked her what her expectations of me were going to be if she moves into an apartment? Her reply was "I haven't really thought about it. "
I told her that's exactly what I was was concerned about. While I was in the middle of expressing my concerns, she cut me off. First came the anger and guilt trip(I'm not worried about her, only my own happiness). Then came the crying and more guilt. She said "If I have to stay here, I might as well be dead!"

I stayed calm and told her that she really needed to think about her expectations and when she has a list, let me know.

I find it very ironic that she's accusing me of being selfish when she admitted that she hasn't even considered what this move is going to do to me!!

I would like to say that I feel better having talked to her, but the truth is I don't. I know she has dug in her heels and come Hell or high water, she's gonna do this stupid thing.

I do feel proud of myself that I stayed calm and confronted her, however, I think this is the calm before the storm. Lol

Piper, my parents had an argument one evening and she flounced off to my grandparents. My father told her the door was always open if she wanted to come back, but it didn't happen. She rented herself a cottage instead. I think she was looking for an excuse to go anyway. Neither of my parents were blameless as both had extra marital affairs. I think my mother jumped ship when she could be sure of a safe landing - she had a "gentleman friend" by then, and although he didn't move in with her, he was around to support her. She married him when her divorce came through. When I write this it sounds awful. It was. I could never behave like that towards my son. No wonder I've had anxiety all my life - presumably to do with abandonment I expect. I went through life not really telling people about this, as though it was my shameful secret, but now I see it as my mother's shame, not mine. I've told some of my friends but I've found it's been very awkward as they are very shocked, but thankfully supportive. Piper, I think you need to start putting a rough plan together of how you're going to deal with your mother - I know we've said this before. I empathise with you waking in the night worrying. I've done the same. I ended up keeping a notepad by the bed so I could jot down things that were bothering me, and it helped offload some of the worry. I agree that Covid has just added to the stress levels and reduced the opportunities for us to get away from our own situations for some respite. Once again I come back to this Forum and how it is really helping during this isolating period in our lives.

Chris your mom walking out when you were 15 is a huge deal. Was she having some sort of crisis? (if you want to say, no worries if not). I'm sorry you went through that, I am also impressed by the strong and capable woman you grew up to be. Not only have you successfully raised your own family but you have been taking good care of your mother for 10 plus years! Well done my friend.

I'm so tired. I didn't see my mom yesterday, so I'm already feeling the pressure to socialize with her today in some capacity. I was awake at 4:30 AM thinking about it with feelings of dread. This is no way to live and I'm changing things the second I see a crack of a chance. I'm starting to obsess about "competency" wondering how much of a lunatic she is going to have to get to in order for me to force placement in MC. I read the other day that in FL only a judge can declare someone incompetent. Not a primary care or a diagnosis of dementia. Oh great so I have a court battle ahead of me? I should just go ahead and make an appointment with an elder care attorney. I need to find out what the real deal is on placement in Florida.

On a better note, I'm taking my mom for her first covid shot on Monday. The next one is set for March 15. Really hoping some semblance of "normalcy" returns by summer. I'm aware that covid has made everything so much harder, and I'm hoping relief from the covid imposed isolation will make everything a little easier.

I shall wade in here after an absence of a few days while I’ve been busy sorting out more of my mum’s things. I think it was StillDealing who said she felt “motherless”. This really struck home with me and I’ve been thinking about this over the past few days. Looking back through my life, yes, I would say that “motherless” perfectly sums up the root cause of so much pain and anguish. I would say my mother was the type 1 narcissistic parent: pretty much “absent” when I was a young child, sending me off to my grandparents every weekend and school holiday rather than look after me herself, always making excuses that she couldn’t get time off work to come to any school event, never offering any emotional support or any hugs, and the “big one”: walking out when I was 15 and never coming back. I totally understand the promiscuity as a way of looking for the love that was never there, plus the constantly trying to prove your worth and to show that you are a decent person - to the one person who can never give you that validation. I probably started to think that my mother was a NM about 4 years ago, when I read about this by accident, and it has explained so much. I realised there is no point trying to elicit love or validation of your worth from an NM as they do not have it in their power to confer this on you. Everything is just a transaction with my mother, so I decided it was better for me to be transactional in return and save myself the emotional damage. I am so grateful for the honesty and support on this forum, from others with the same experiences. I think we can all be stronger by being here.

X-ray, Shell, lealonnie. I also realized that we had the the type of mothers that if we had been born gay, or transgender, or anything other than heterosexual, I know my mother would have disowned me. I’m not gay, but if I was, I never would have told my mother.

My oldest son is gay and none of us ever told my mother because she would have disowned him even though they were so close. So he decided to never tell her.

These NM mothers that we have could never understand and would not be supportive because it’s all about THEM.

What I have learned from this forum. Is that we are NOT our Mothers!!!! She doesn’t define who we are. We are nothing like our mothers!!! When my son told me he was gay, I told him we loved him no matter what. It doesn’t matter. We want him to be himself. To be his authentic self. That is what our NM should have taught us. To be ourselves, not be who they wanted us to be.

We all deserved better than what we got. Even with her death, I’m still trying to process it all. Hugs to all of you and take care of YOU, because YOU matter!!

Zrayjodib, I too was promiscuous in my teens. Looking for love or whatever it was at the time. Trying to feel something, anything. I met my husband and I married him at age 22. I went right from living at home to living with my husband with never being alone by myself.

Looking back, I think my husband saved my life. He was and still is kind and gentle and isn’t and never was the yelling and screaming type like I grew up with in my household.

He took me away from all the chaos and we are still married.

It’s funny how after reading lealonnie’s post about her mom being NM #2, it really triggered me. I was at work and all I could think about was my mother and from a very early age, her not LISTENING to me when I really needed her there.

She sent me to various babysitters and I felt so alone because my parents would go to lasvegas for a week or 2 and my brother was much older then me and was already doing his own thing. I just felt alone and I couldn’t talk to my mother how I was feeling when I was 4 years old because she didn’t want to hear it.

My mother passed away on October 31 2020 from a stroke and I thought it would be a relief with her gone. It’s not a relief. All the negative tapes play back over and over in my mind. I just with there was a way to stop the tapes.

Do what is right for you. You don’t owe your mom anything. You have every right to speak up to her. Please take care of you. Thank you for baring your soul. I did the same and I must say, I feel better. Thank you Xrayjodib for listening.

Elaine,

As children of narcissists, we are taught that we earn love by what we do, not by who we are!

So we spent the majority of our lives trying to earn love by doing things for people we want to love us. Or sometimes doing things out of our comfort zone to earn love from people who don't deserve it!

I will bare my soul!

I think it's fair to say that we've all heard about girls that have Daddy issues. I am realizing that it's also possible to have Mommy issues.

I was very promiscuous in my late teens and early 20's. I sought the love, comfort and security that I never got at home!

It seems crazy to me that it's taken me so long to figure it out.!
And although I can see it all so clearly, it's so hard to break the cycle of F.O.G. I am begining to see that the only way to go about it is to just rip the bandaid off!

Either way, it's going to cause me pain and anguish! But I think it's better for me to set boundaries knowing they will be breached as opposed to holding my tongue and hoping for the best!

Shell,

I think, even though our childhood treatment seems to be polar opposites, the outcome is that we have equally struggled to figure out who we are!!

You're NM didn't try to nurture or mold you, while mine tried to mold me into what she always wanted herself to be.

Lea,

In my studies, I recall that there are 3 types of narcissist.
1) Overt
2) Covert
3) Exobitionist

It seems the one common threads is the F.O.G.

Today my Mom called me. She started talking about her move. She was using words like "We" and "Us"!

OMG!! There is no "We" or "Us"!
There is only "Her"!

I thought about writing her a letter!
I think I need to just grow a pair!!
I need to have "The Talk" with her! I need to know that she hears me when I tell her that I do not support her decision.
I am willing to help, but I can't be at her beckon call.
She needs to take ME out of the equation and plan her move knowing this!!

I am totally stressed about having this conversation. I know it's not gonna go well. If she can just let me speak and get this off my chest maybe we can move forward.

My suspicion is that the conversation is going to quickly end with her in tears and hanging up on me!

Wish me luck!!🤞🤞🙏🙏🙏

Lealonnie, I also had NM #2. Always hovering over me all my life. Even when I was very little she would hover and do everything for me because god forbid I made a mistake or accidentally spilled my milk.

She even said she fed me in the high chair as a baby and toddler because god forbid I get food all over my face. The list goes on and on.

Nowadays they would be called a helicopter mom. But even a helicopter mom may hover over her child, but she still lets the child think and do things for themselves.

Boy, did I mistake all of that growing up as love. I thought she hovered because she loved me. That was never the case at all.

Lea,
I knew at 3 yrs old I was on my own! Something horrible happened to me and my NM knew about it and did nothing about it! No one did! (Dad probably didn't know) I have always felt that I can't trust anybody even my own family! I hate to say this but it is true...I keep everybody except my SO at arms length. It took my SO 5 to 6 yrs for me to trust him...not because of him, but because of me and always feeling that all I ever have is myself! I have always had to take care of myself. My NM never bothered with me which just kept reinforcing that belief and I still feel this way!

Yes, it is interesting in a very sad way!

Jodi & Shell: seems like there are 2 types of narcissistic mothers:

If you have a mother or father that is a covert narcissist, you may have felt as if you weren’t protected when you were growing up, or you may have felt that you were on your own and needed to take care of yourself.

Or sometimes it can go the other way, especially with moms who are so overly involved in your life and overly protective of you, that you get the message that this world isn’t safe, and the only person you can trust is your mom. You’re never gonna make it out there on your own. It’s a very disempowering relationship.

I have NM #2: one that was SO extremely over protective & over involved in my life that I didn't have 3 minutes of peace or privacy in my entire childhood!

Interesting, huh?

Xray,
For me it is somewhat opposite. My NM never really bothered with me. She didn't teach me my ABC's or how to count...tie my shoes...how to zip up my coat...that was all my brother's doing...my NM never even read to me as a child. All the things child learn in those first 5 to 6 yrs my NM wasn't apart of it! I ask myself "How could I have forgotten?" "How did I not realize that my NM wasn't there to teach me these things?"

I did so much to get her attention...her love...but everything I accomplished just made her hate me more. My NM always claimed that she was proud of me and that other's were jealous of me, but I see now that was all a lie.

I really don't know what is worst! Having a 'mother' push what she wants onto you or having a 'mother' who ignored you most of your life, but tells you that she loves you...either way we both got the cheated when it came to mothers. I never got 'that a girl' from my NM!

It really is a strange thought...it is 5:38 am and I woke up to thinking "how strange it is to have a mother in your life who never really was a mother! How my friends thought I had the best mom...because she acted so caring to them, but couldn't be bothered by me. She was a stay at home mom, but she stayed in her bedroom most of the time...most nights she never even made us kids dinner. Thank God my dad taught us kids to cook at a young age.

Xray, you are a wonderful person & you deserve all the love, peace, and joy that your heart can hold. You turned out to be a loving and a great human being dispite what your NM did! Be proud of yourself!💜


We all deserve so much more than what our NM thinks! Here is to us 👏!

Thank you for explaining CPTSD to me Lealonnie.

I came to realize today that my NM pushed and pushed me into all the things she wanted for herself.

My weight, how I dressed, even down to what solos I sang in school. I wasn't permitted to be myself!

There were never any kudos!
No matter how hard I tried or how well I did, never a pat on the back!!
Her favorite saying is "I taught her everything she knows ".

After reading thru all of our posts, I have come to realize that her sad attempts to live vicariously through me have had the opposite effect on her!

Instead of feeling fulfilled, it has left her feeling empty and jealous. And yes, when I was 16, she actually told me that she was jealous of me!

We all have to work hard at not letting these broken people bring us down!!!

I understand how painful and incredibly difficult it is to put ourselves first and I'm so grateful for all of you and your thoughtful insight!!

You ALL Rock!!!😘