Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

Lea,

At this point Mom has refuses to discuss anything having to do with her move any further.
So be it!!

I have no choice other than to let her do what she wants, however, I do have the choice to do only what I am comfortable doing.

As all of us know, it's going to be extremely difficult, but don't think for one minute that I am going to hesitate about throwing this in her face when it becomes an EPIC failure!

I have repeatedly reminded her how much she hated apartment living because of the noise. I have reminded her that bending over to pick up dog poop is not safe. So when she starts complaining after her move(and she will), I am gonna tell her that "I " refuse to discuss it!!

If she wants to be independent, than she needs to be Independent!!
I'm done!!

Lea,
It is so true that our NM take up so much head space that you can't think about yourself and your own needs! Even when your not around them you are left with "what are they (NM) going to do now" because you know in your gut 'it is just a matter of time before they do something or say something.'

I wonder at times how are we all surviving the non stop stress that our NM causes?!

Xray,
Your NM is insane for wanting a dog! I get the loneliness, but she can't even take care of herself little long a dog! I'm with Lea on this one...Animal manipulation!!

Chris: My vote is more manipulation with the animals!!!!!! 100% LOL

Honestly! Piper's parrot and now Jody's dog! Whatever next? Is this really about wanting a pet, or just more manipulation?

"The world doesn't end when our mothers don't approve" says Barb. 

This is gold. I don't know why I haven't read it before. Soooooo good.

So Jodi, that's nice your NM wants a dog! How will she get one? How will she feed one, walk one 4x a day from an apartment, get one to the vet for shots, etc? Good questions to ask HER, since YOU are not available for such things. NOW is the time to start planting those thoughts in her head. How SHE is going to manage all of her wants while living ALONE in a place with NO HELP, NO TRANSPORTATION, etc. Throwing the 'dog' out there is just fishing with bait. You taking the bait? Throw that line back at her! Reality is beginning to hit her now and that's a good thing that she's mad at you this morning. Hopefully your brothers are on the same page & you're all presenting a united front to her. Living alone in an apartment = a big mistake where she will have to HIRE all the help she will need b/c her children are not available. If your DH reads her the riot act, ALL THE BETTER! My NM calms right down when my DH gets involved b/c he's an 'outsider' and never gets treated to the nasty/disgusting behavior that I do. So one peep from HIM and she's on her best behavior for a while!

You should tell your NM that you are SO relieved she's only going to rely on you for 'emotional support' these days b/c you have SO MUCH on your plate already that you can't possibly fit one more thing onto it w/o falling apart yourself! And, after all, what good would you be to ANYBODY if you had to go to to a rest home for months on end just to recuperate from a mental and physical collapse!? Two can play these games, you know.

Okiegranny, in a perfect world, no contact or limited contact is the perfect answer to a terrible problem with narcissistic parents and sounds like a simple, easy-peasy solution, too! It doesn't always work out that way, though, for about a million reasons including being an only child to a narcissistic parent and the only one available to them. If only there were such a simple answer to such a complex problem where these people occupy such a huge amount of space in their children's heads. I wonder what the solution is to THAT little issue???????? Even with limited contact, the stress they cause and the head space they occupy can't be remedied, I'm afraid.

"The world doesn't end when our mothers don't approve" says Barb. Very true! Now let's hope the 'disapproval' doesn't take on a life of it's own and cause lots of stress, headaches, upset stomachs and sleepless nights for our dear Jodi, as typical NM 'disapproval' often morphs into. The endless tricks up their sleeves are just that: endless.

Elaine, I wonder if your mother wound up throwing her cordless phone in the garbage by mistake? That is so strange! My mother took a pretty bad fall again on Sunday night; off of the toilet onto the floor b/c she refuses to ask for help. I think this constitutes fall #62 with no injuries/trips to the hospital, believe it or not. The marine nurse had to come pick her up & she was very flustered & upset. Sigh.

Okiegranny,

Welcome to the thread!

You're right that our loved ones don't have the right to ruin our lives!

That's the problem with narcissists, they actually know what they're doing and they use manipulation tactics to get us to fall in to line.

It's extremely frustrating!!

"Imagine that".

So true, Jodi. The world does not end when our mothers don't approve!

Good for you.

So NM is angry at me this am. Imagine that!! Lol

She's telling me that she won't depend on me for anything other than emotional support! That's a full time job in itself!

Then she proceeded to tell me that she wants a dog! Again, she doesn't drive anymore.
Who is gonna take this dog to the Vet?

I understand that she wants to be independent. I do sympathize.
She's just not seeing the big picture!! It's just insane!!

Lea,

You're so right, this is completely manipulative!! She thinks I will have no choice but to help her!
I know the poop is gonna hit the fan if she moves into an apartment. I also know that my hubby will go off on her if she starts with the guilt trips!

We care for parents out of obligation because they brought us into the world and they cared for us (well, maybe). To me that means making sure that their physical needs are taken care of. It does not mean allowing them to abuse us or ruin our lives. If the person is toxic, then limit your contact with him/her.

Lealonnie, one more thing about the phone I forgot to add in my last post. My mother ALWAYS had her cordless phone with her. When it wasn’t on the charger it was always in her hand or right next to her so she could call for help.

When my mother had the stroke and I went to call 911, the phone as nowhere near her.

Luckily I had my cell phone with me. But after she passed away I looked and looked and searched every bag for her phone and I NEVER found it.

I found her remote after cleaning out the kitchen. It was the very last item under her chair, but I never found her cordless phone.

Hellebore......call the VA just to make sure. The place you're talking about is called a senior living residence with a continuum of care. She can start out in Independent Living and move to assisted living or memory care or Skilled Nursing as the need arises. That article you linked to was very good......great tips I can use, thanks for sharing

lealonnie, thank you so much for the advice. My dad was a veteran but his service was 1958-1959 which is too late for Korea and too early for Vietnam. I doubt we'd be eligible for anything because you have to served during a period of war, IIRC.

I wonder if I might be able to sell mom on one of those "independent living" places - looks like they transition you into greater levels of care if the need arises. Hmmmm. I don't want to get my hopes up but just maybe.

Thanks Chris, I'll look for 'compassionate detachment.' I've decided I need to eat ramen to pay for it or do whatever I have to, but I really need a therapist. I just don't think I can do this alone. I'll ask her about it. In the meantime I found a great article.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/charm-harm/201703/how-protect-yourself-in-difficult-relationship

Hellebore,
I'm just timing in, of course your upset with your NM giving your things away. It just isn't about the things, it is the lack of respect for you as a person, the lies she told on how she is getting rid of 'Some things' but not telling you that it is 'Your things'...it is the lack of compassion she shows and if you did it to her then "h3ll have no fury!" Because they can do and say what they want to us, but we better not dare do it to them. It is also a lack of how she didn't think about how it would make you feel!! I know this because my own NM has and does steal from me all the time. She has given my stuff away, sold them, just hid them, or thrown my things away at no concern to how it will make me feel! But I better not touch her stuff...as if I would!


I feel your pain. Feeling like your on a treadmill that you can't get off...I live it everyday as most of us do! But as I remind myself everyday that 'this to shall pass' and moreover, in the grand scheme of life this is just a moment in time and it will pass! Probabilities tells us that everything changes and this bad situation will change. We just have to hold on until it does! Hugs!!


Xray,
I am just so happy that you are taking your power back and by sharing the text messages you are getting ahead of the game (so to speak). Words of my dad "you may have lost some battles, but you can when the war." Believe me, we are all in a war and the war was declared when we were born or as a child, but make no mistake our NMs started this war!💖

Hellebore; my parents didn't have a ton of $$$ either when they went into Assisted Living; they signed it all over to me and I managed everything from 3 checkbooks in joint names. I've been private paying for mom *dad died in 2015* with her $$$, SSI and the VA Aid and Attendance check she gets as a survivor of the war vet all along. When the $$$ runs out, I WILL apply for Medicaid and her AL/MC CAN indeed kick her out...........why would they NOT if she can't pay? It's a privately owned place and they ONLY take cash, no Medicaid. She has money for about another year and she's 94 now. If she's still alive, I'll get her into a local SNF and on Medicaid.

My suggestion to you is get her home valued by a real estate agent, see if she qualifies for any VA assistance if your father or she was a vet, and think about AL. Together with her SSI of $1200, even if no other funds are available, that would be $2800 a month out of pocket for her. If she cashed out $150k from the house, that $$$ would last quite a while! Just something to think about, right?

Jodi, you really DO NOT have a choice in the matter if your NM rents an apartment nearby. NMs are THE most stubborn people you'll ever meet b/c their powers of manipulation are second to NONE. I'm glad your brothers are being made aware of your NMs BS. Now you can present a UNITED FRONT to her about what you're each willing to do or not do for her. AL living will wind up to be her ONLY option in very short order when she sees and feels that very little help is forthcoming from you all. And having NO transportation available to her is utterly ridiculous. I hope she knows how to order Ubers and taxis!!

Hellebore, I discovered Compassionate Detachment via my counselling sessions, but I think you’ll easily find information about it online with a quick search.

Piper,

I totally agree with you!!

The problem is, I can't stop her!!

Because she still has her mind, I have very little say in what she does.

I have been very specific about what I'm willing to do, but it hasn't deterred her in the least!

She is the most stubborn woman I have ever met! Ugh!!

Chris,

You're right! I do feel more powerful. I have discovered that it's easier to text my NM with my thoughts on her moving. This has 2 benefits. First, I can forward the conversation to my brother's. Second, I avoid the anger, crying and guilt trips.

Hellebore,

Let's definitely stay in touch!

It seems like we're in the same boat!!

Hang in there!!

Piper, I 100% believe you and empathize especially with your mother being right next door. But my problem is money - I'm told average cost for AL in our area is about 4K a month. Mom has no savings and no income other than Social Security which IIRC is about 1200 a month. She's probably only got about 100-150K equity in her house so by my math that's only about 2-3 years she'd be able to pay for AL. Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your perspective) longevity runs in our family. Mom is 82 and I'd say she could easily be "on my plate" so to speak for at least another 10.

I'm just trying to get my mind around trying to get her to go to assisted living. One of the issues for me right now is constant complaining about how little money she has, which I'm sure is a real fear for her but is also a direct result of her failure to work and save (she retired at 55 with an advanced degree so she could do volunteer work for the next 27. Don't ask. :)) If my understanding is correct the only option when she runs out of money would be a Medicaid nursing home. Mom knows all this I'm sure and will fight me over it with everything in her power, including calling up/enlisting everyone in our very large, emotionally incestuous extended family to fight me too. Unfortunately they're not in a position to know her day to day so she'll portray things as though she's just fine and able bodied, and I'm an uncaring evil witch trying to "force her into a nursing home."

Part of this is that my dad left me a sizeable inheritance when he died, so she knows spouse and I have resources - DH also has a good job, so in her mind we can just use our resources to take care of her. Nevermind that we don't have kids to take care of *us* when we get old and a lot of our money is being saved for our own retirement. Of course she doesn't understand that because she didn't plan at all for HER retirement. (Sheez, this just occurred to me - what a great message board this is.... y'all really bring up food for thought!!)

Anyway, this is way too long already but I'll really think about it. I know it's illegal to throw people out of AL if they have to go on Medicaid but I don't know which ones in our area accept it or really anything at all about how that works. I think I'll call our local Council on Aging and ask.

Unfortunately I'll have to go this alone because mom is really resistant to any discussion of how she's getting increasingly debilitated - it's all "everything is fine" denial when she's visibly declined in the last three or four years, etc. I'm so sorry your mom snuck dementia past you piper - that sounds *exactly* like something my own mom would do!! I'm so glad I have you all to talk to. <3

Chris, thanks for the suggestion on the detachment. Any books you'd recommend? UK authors are fine, I have an Amazon.co.uk account I use often since I'm a big Anglophile and fan of British history. 👍

Jodi and Hellebore, I'm sorry to sound like a negative broken record in here but once again I feel compelled to warn you both. The amount of regret that I have for not STOPPING my mother from moving close to me is IMMENSE.

Like both of you I got the lip service (aka manipulation) that everything would work out fine. That this move was just to be closer for some casual support. Nothing big and certainly not disruptive. My mom laid it on thick (lied) how she was going to make friends and travel, and do her own thing. I have no proof of this but I highly suspect that my mother knew dementia was setting in too, and deliberately did not tell me. Her BFF sure knew, and didn't tell me. A rosey picture was painted, that's for sure. Unfortunately I was also very much in the FOG, so a poor decision was made.

The rest is history and misery. She has NO life of her own, NO friends of her own, everyday I have to work at boundaries AGAIN. Her dementia is progressing and so is her dependency. I mean my post history speaks for itself. AND now I am stuck! She isn't going anywhere anytime soon, that's for sure.

Back when she was wanting to move (planning to hijack my life) what I should have done was to tell her - fine if you choose to move, but all I am willing to do is help you get into assisted living (on her dime).

She may have refused. Who knows what she would have done. It would have been hard conversation for me to have - but not NEARLY as hard as having the burden I have now. And not nearly as hard as the fact that I will have to move her AGAIN, when she is NOT willing, and it's going to be a nightmare.

Don't kid yourselves. When the needs increase you WILL be expected to take on the care. Don't set yourselves up to where you will have to go see a lawyer and possibly a court judge about competency just to get a soul sucking lunatic out of your daily life.

I'm sorry to sound so dramatic, but honestly I wish somebody would have warned me.

Hellebore, good to hear the journal-keeping is helping. I agree also that exercise is hugely beneficial. I don't know if you've heard of the term "compassionate detatchment", or whether I've mentioned this before. The idea is that you care that the difficult person is safe, etc, but you detach yourself physically and/or emotionally from the scenario. This means you could take care of some things from a distance but you don't get sucked into running around catering for their every need. It also means you don't allow the words and actions to cut through to you and upset you. It takes a lot of hard work to develop this technique, but it's worth the effort for the postive effect on your wellbeing.

Oh, and - I miss my dad like you'd miss your right arm. He's been gone 19 years now and I doubt I'll ever completely get over it. He was the only one I could completely trust to have my back when my mother was up to her antics - though luckily DH has some of his good qualities. Wish they'd gotten to know each other but I'd only dated DH a few months when Dad died.

xray, we should stay in touch on this. My mother is also planning to move into a smaller place - most likely a condo - close to me because she's assumed I'm her hands-on care committee. I have extremely mixed feelings about this to say the least. Spent a little time today doing research on what the Medicaid spend down laws are in my state because she is NOT moving in with me, ever, and I am likely going to need some help before this is all over. Longevity runs in our family, nmom's grandmother lived to be 100, aunt was 95 which means I may have at least another decade of this to deal with.

Today I'm struggling with the fact that I can't have a logical conversation with mother at all about any of this - when I talk about what's going to happen when she can't drive any more she says she'll take uber which I don't believe for a second. She is 100% counting on me to provide whatever time, attention and money she wants no ifs ands or buts about it. I have one sibling, a half brother who also has a personality disorder and is extremely difficult to be around - I haven't seen him in 18 years - but as mother has made a big point of having him in her life even though he did awful psychological things to me when I was too young to defend myself I think she should call him for her needs at least occasionally. I think I'm going to start saying so. I'm also going to start telling her to call the other people in her life for company instead of insisting on me sitting on the phone with her for hours. It's making me miserable.

Other items in no particular order: Someone, I think chriscat, mentioned keeping notes - I've been writing a journal every day which has really helped. Just sort of helps get things down on paper so they're not clanging around in my head all day. I'm really trying to come to terms with the fact that it hit me like a ton of bricks here lately that my mother probably honestly would qualify for a bona fide NPD diagnosis. On the one hand certain things make sense, on another I'm trying to get a handle on the fact that nothing I say or do is going to make much difference in getting mother to back off, since like other narcs she sees me as her property and an extension of herself. It's a hard thing to realize.

Another thing is a book by Nina Brown which I may have mentioned, "Children of the Aging Self Absorbed." It says to provide sympathy, but not empathy - as in, listen to the endless complaining but don't offer to provide solutions yourself, which I'm going to try whenever I have to deal with mother again. I haven't taked to her in a couple of weeks since I found out she gave $1000 worth of my belongings to Goodwill without asking or telling me. (I'm not sure if I'm more mad about that or about the fact that I have had to listen to her talk about trivia related to her plans to move for at least an hour a day for close to a year. As part of this she's been telling me she was getting rid of things and when I finally got over there she had only gotten rid of MY things which I was storing over there, long story - everything else was untouched (!) I just feel like I've been buffaloed again, in which she fails to do anything to improve her own situation - but I'm sure she's expecting me to come over there and spend a lot of time "helping," i.e. doing it FOR her.

I'm milking the NC for as long as I can, but I figure I won't have too much longer before she'll start enlisting flying monkeys to get me back in the fold, or more likely develop an illness for which I will "have to" come and attend. Sigh.

So tired of feeling like I'm living on a treadmill with no end in sight. Isolation and jobless spouse both due to covid are NOT helping. Think I probably should try to get more exercise to deal with the stress, though I've been pretty good about hiking lately - and snow shoveling this week!

Jodi, you sound so much more powerful and in control of your situation than you did a week ago. You are absolutely right to share all that your mother says or does with your brothers - get the truth out there before it is corrupted. Don't get sucked into any of the games. Stick to your plan and to the list of what you will and will not do, moving forward. Don't let your mother deflect the attention onto your health - isn't this the beginnings of gaslighting? Stay strong sister!!

Finally got a text response from NM.

Her response to my expectations was that she hadn't thought of it those terms! My interpretation is that (of course), she's only thinking about herself! Seriously, she wants to move into an apartment with no car? No way to get anywhere, but she doesn't realize how that may affect my life? I'm not buying it!!!

She said she worries about my health and doesn't want to put any undo stress on me(BS), then turned around and threw my brothers under the bus. She says that after her pleas for financial help, they've done nothing! And I need to understand how much stress that causes her! Everything is a competition with her!!

I have been sharing every text with my brothers, because I understand now how narcissists try and pit people against each other. I believe it's called triangulation.

My brothers are completely angry after reading her words!

The upside of all this is that I set the boundaries!! And when she tries to push the envelope, I can remind her of these conversations.

I have it in writing!!

I am humbled by how you are all willing to share your experiences !!

Like me, so many of you have shared how you feel validated!!

Sometimes I think this forum is better than therapy! And a whole lot cheaper!! Lol

(((HUGS)))

Elaine, that phone thing is SO annoying, omg. My NM is constantly saying the 'phone is broke' too and it never is. Last night she said she dropped the phone and it 'broke into 100 pieces' yet she was speaking to me on it. When I said, well I guess it didn't actually break when you dropped it, she said "I NEVER said it broke." Just the usual 'jump down the rabbit hole' crap I deal with on a daily basis. In fact, I called the woman for 3 hours last night & convinced myself she was laying on the floor out of reach of the call button in the MC. Of course she wasn't. She was 'in bed with diarrhea' which makes NO SENSE and irritated that I had called her! When she finally picked up, she said in an annoyed tone, 'yeah someone has been trying to call me all night.' Uh yeah ma, that would BE ME. So today at the window visit in 35 degree weather, I told her, YOU CALL ME IN THE FUTURE IF YOU WANT TO TALK. I'm about done with all the drama & histrionics. She looks fine to me, honestly.

Shell............your mother's dementia is taking a real turn for the worst if she's claiming 'they' stole all that meat or 'they' threw it out! Perhaps THEY can feed her, too, since now there's nothing to eat in the house, thanks to all the meat being tossed out! Can you install a key lock or a combination lock on the freezer (if that's where it was stored)? I honestly do not know HOW you are dealing with all this BS, Shell. Sending you a big hug.

My dad was very stand offish, really. He was cowed by my NM who villainized him something fierce; he was The Devil, naturally..........and he was very unaffectionate with me. Never remember him saying I was pretty or that he loved me, not until he was at the end of his life. I loved my dad though, he was a good and decent man, although he stuck up for my mother continuously. Every time I got angry with her for her bad treatment of HIM, there he was, standing up for HER! Totally dysfunctional relationship it was. So in reality, I didn't have a close relationship with either one of my parents, but I would have moved heaven and earth for dad. And I'm doing it for my mother TOO, in reality.

Today she kept asking DH 'what do you think of my new bed?' trying to get him to say he hated it. He was with me when I picked the damn thing out and had it delivered & set up. It's an adjustable bed with a wonderful pillow top mattress. I knew she'd have something rotten to say about a $1200 new bed, but she won't say it to ME.........she wants to hear that DH 'hates' it so she can agree with HIM and leave me out of the loop. I'm like.............the bed is brand new mom, there's nothing wrong with it, you were complaining bitterly about the old bed, so now you have a new one, at the MCs request b/c they can't get you UP w/o 2 people, so let it go please. We lasted for 25 minutes in the biting wind and we left.

Why are these NMs never, ever satisfied with ANYTHING?

Went to make dinner and notice that I have $40 of hamburger and $60 of pork chops missing! This is what my NM has been doing to me. I did or didn't do something to her and because I pay for all the meat she just throws it away! I am mad as a mad-hater!! This is not the first time she has done this! Of course, they did it???? 🤬

Xray- Wow! Glad that you have taken a stand, in writing, about your mother's poor decision to move. Just be prepared for an increase in manipulative behaviors, and don't back down. And don't waiver from your plan. Start making your life about YOU, not her. I've had to remind myself of this very same advice this week. And its working in the sense that I am staying away from some pretty serious NM-induced senseless and unnecessary drama this week.
Chriscat and Piper- I, too, had a very close relationship with my Dad, and spent a great deal of loving time with him while he treated for cancer. It was really close and emotional, in a good way. I learned alot from trying to be like my Dad: about kindness, patience, hard work, diligence, keeping good humor...he was really my only parent in the sense of the word of what a parent should be. I think of him whenever I begin fearing that i may become like my mother, and it helps.

Piper, you asked about my dad. Thankfully I had a good relationship with him, which just got better and better as we went through life. My mother had painted him as the villain (in true narc style) so when she left I was afraid of him to start with. But he turned out to be quite caring and ensured my home life and education were as good as they could be, under the circumstances. This thread is all about NMs, but did others find support from their fathers?

Lealonnie, my mother did the same thing with her cordless landline phone. The past 2 years she wouldn’t press the off button, so when I would call her I got a busy signal.

She would deny that she forgot to turn the phone off. I said I would call you right back after talking to you and would get a busy signal. She would say there is something wrong with the phone. This happened all the time.

I checked out the phone and there was never anything wrong with it. If I needed to speak to her about something that was important I would have to drive over snd tell her myself. It was infuriating!!

I hope your mom starts feeling better on the Cymbalta.