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Jodi,

I truly appreciate your knowledge and how much you contribute to this forum by sharing the correct terminology on serious mental health illnesses.

I wish everyone would acknowledge and accept how damaging it is for family members to deal with these severe situations.

It is entirely different for anyone who is caring for an individual in a facility. They don’t have a personal connection with them. It is heartbreaking for a family member to witness this behavior.
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Jodi,

I appreciate that you respect the professionals who have loads of experience in the field of psychiatry!

Good for you!
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There’s a narcissist on this post alright. Sign #1 denial. Sign #2 thinks everyone else is the problem 😉
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Cali,

Wonderfully insightful response! 😊
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Haileybug: I thought you were 'moving forward' since you admit to having 'never heard of narcissism'?

Those without "knowledge" or "wisdom" on a particular personality disorder ought to stay OUT of the discussion to avoid the appearance of ignorance on the subject. Or to avoid looking 'ridiculous' themselves.

Just a thought.
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Lea,

Quite a good thought, at that! 😊
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For anyone wishing to educate themselves on narcissism. Mayo Clinic website has a detailed description of it.

Mayo Clinic would be considered a legitimate source.

Of course, those who grew up with parents that have NPD are very familiar with this mental disorder.
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Gee, if narcissistic is just a word or label then why do I have the scars of my mother leaving me alone at 3 yrs old in the middle of the night because I couldn't go back to sleep from having night terrors and she couldn't be bothered. Or how she let my brother abused me and she would look at me and say, "oh well, stop crying." My mother felt nothing for her kids. She gave us no love, no hugs, no that girl. In fact, she went out of her way to hurt us. My mother is cold as ice and always has been.

Haileybug,
Do you really think it is normal for a mother to hurt her children? Or for a mother to steal from her kids? Yes, I said, "steal." My mother has taken anything & anyone she could from me! Animals, toys, clothes, cheap earrings, money anything that brought me joy, she took it. It started when I was 3 yrs old. What do you think a 3 yr old says to herself when her mother decided she can't have her favorite toy anymore and doesn't understand why or what she did wrong! That's right! My favorite stuff bunny went missing one night. I woke up to find my bunny was gone. The bunny I slept with. I cried for weeks and no bunny! Guess what, I have found my bunny with my mother's things forty + years later! This is just one example of what my mother took from me. I don't have enough tears for what she has done to me!!!!!

Oh wait...it is just a word or label!!!

Do you get nose bleeds? I am just asking because you are so high up looking down on the rest of us!

And yes, I called you out by your name, of course, I can think of a few names to call you, but I won't!!

You shouldn't talk about anything you don't know about! Until you walk a mile in somebody's shoes; you have no idea what they went through!

Oh by the way, God bless!!!
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Shell,

I couldn’t agree more with everything you just said!

🙌 Bravo!
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Thank you NHWM!🤪
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Haileybug,

"I have never in my life heard of a narcissistic mother. Never." These are your exact words. I went back and reread your response.

Since it appeared as though you didn't know anything about NPD, I simply let you know that it is an actual diagnosis.

It seems as though you didn't grow up with a narcissistic mother.
I'm truly glad for you!!

You're response led me to believe that perhaps you felt as though narcissistic Mothers were like unicorns or the tooth fairy.

Since, as you say, you care for many different types of mental disorders, I thought it might be worth while for you to know about NPD.

Beyond that, when I posted this, I was in great turmoil and distressed.
Apparently, many other posters are as well !

Being a caregiver requires a moral compass and at the very least, compassion.
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Shell,

Thanks so much for sharing!!

You're amazing and a true survivor!!
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Xray,
In truth, I don't know how well I am surviving. I guess, it is like any thing else in life, some days are good and some days are bad. What I am trying to say, some days I feel like a survivor and other days not so much. But I think that is just part of taking care of a person who truly hates you for being born and who has NPD!

Oh I forgot, it is just a word or label!! That was in no way at you Xray!

Your welcome!!!
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Shell,

I feel ya Sister!!

(((Hugs)))!
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There's been a lot of chat here about the nature of and existence of narcissism. For anyone struggling to understand what this all about, check out the Caregiving Topics on this very website. Some of them cover narcissism and in particular caring for a narcissistic elderly parent. I refer to these articles when the situation with my mother gets very difficult. They help me to refocus on what I need to do to stay sane, and they validate my own feelings. If you suffer abuse from a narcissist, be warned: reading about what are essentially your own experiences can be very distressing. If you have never been on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse, they will mean nothing to you. Just thought I should point this out.
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Great information!!

Thanks Chris!!!
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Shell; your comment, 'What I am trying to say, some days I feel like a survivor and other days not so much.' I have noticed myself that part of being a survivor of narcissistic abuse is that we question ourselves. "Is it that bad?" "Did it really happen the way I remember it?" Classic survivor thinking.

Gaslighting from the NPD mother contributes VERY HEAVILY to the self-doubt and the questioning. The wondering, the second guessing. Do you know what I mean?

Chriscat: Validation for our feelings is SUCH an important factor in healing. And why we get SO ANGRY when others like to poo poo us away or to say we're putting 'a label' on something, as if to make light of it. Ha ha ha. What a silly little nothing you're bellyaching about. THIS type of behavior is classic ABUSER behavior. The DH who tells the wife 'if only' SHE didn't provoke HIM, HE wouldn't have hit HER. It was HER fault. See how the abuser plays mind games with her victim? The woman who gets raped & SHE is getting blamed for 'dressing provocatively' and causing that rape HERSELF.

Anyone who minimizes our pain as survivors of abuse of ANY KIND is an abuser THEMSELF. It's not just ignorance or the pure love of argument that makes a person insist there's no such thing as abuse, it's a classic trait of BEING an abuser that causes it. Look out for victim blaming & victim shaming as classic signs of an abuser.

I guess one can say, "Know that you know that you know."
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Yes, Lea I do know what you are saying. Those questions you posted is the questions that goes through my mind everyday. The sad part is that I wasn't questioning myself until I moved back home and now I don't feel sure of anything anymore! However, I never knew that my mother was like this; she hidden it so well that it is scary!

I agree with you on your advice to Chris. Anyone who poo poo or minimize our feelings our abusers themselves!

I also have a hard time believing that people believe me. The outside world think my mother was/is a great mom and butter wouldn't melt in her mouth! Only if they really knew her!
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Shell.....that's part of the facade they uphold; they're wonderful & fabulous & sweet-as-pie to others but save the ugliness for us, or those who they're 'closest' to. The mask drops off with us, and all we see are the sharp teeth. The whole idea is to keep us off balance, to keep us questioning ourselves; to keep up the facade that they're these wonderful fabulous people and WE are The Bad Guys. It's part of the NPD games they play that they're so good at. They are happy, too, to throw US under the bus in order to keep up the show that they're the Good Guy & we're the Bad Guy. I don't try to convince others that my mother is an ugly person with sharp teeth............b/c then I'M looked at as The Bad Guy by THEM also. You are right about that. My mother has her flying monkeys doing her bidding at the Memory Care ALF and they think she's the bees knees. UNTIL her mask slips.......and then they're shocked & appalled by what they see. I'll never forget one time there was an all out showdown in AL when the nurse cornered her; told her, point blank, you have been requiring TWO people to assist you for the past few days, we need to address that. My mother vehemently denied it, called her a 'dirty liar', literally bared her teeth, and had the young caregiver in tears after calling her 'two faced' and lots of other horrible names. These two women were SHOCKED. I just snorted to myself. THIS, THIS is the woman I see DAILY and have to deal with ALL the time, for the past 63 years! Anyway, the young caregiver went to the Exec Director and asked to be switched out of my mother's area and into a new one, just so she didn't have to deal with her anymore.

Anyway, we've been conditioned from birth to NEVER think 'badly' about our mothers; to never question them, to never feel that they're anything but perfect. So it's natural for us to second guess ourselves. It's part of the survivor process we all go through.

Check out this link: 25 Signs you’re dealing with a covert passive-aggressive narcissist


https://lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/#3

I was oohing and aahhing when I read these 25 signs, recognizing most of them. The one that hit home hardest was: They don’t want you to be happy.
They feel better when you’re not doing well or when you’re in pain.
The only time my mother acts half way decently towards me is when I tell her I don't feel good! I noticed that a long time ago; so I pull that tool out of my toolbox to use quite often. As soon as she hears that I'm unwell, SHE is suddenly feeling MUCH more chipper in general. Sad but true.
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Lea,

My Mom has done the same at her ALF. If they have bad news for her (ie. Continued lockdown), they'll call me and ask me to tell!
The front desk staff is afraid of her!!

We can be on a phone conversation with her ranting and complaining about literally everything, someone will come into her room to deliver her meals and as they leave she calls them sweetie and tells them she loves them! Then, without skipping a beat goes right back to her rant!!
It makes want to vomit!

Shell,

I used to question myself constantly!! But the more I learn about NPD, I feel validated.
Even my therapist has validated my feelings. Says this is totally classic NPD.
You're not wrong to feel the way you do!!😘
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Jodi....yeah huh? The kisses and Love You's I hear my mother giving out to others is nauseating. Soon as the door closes, she's cutting them apart with a knife most times! Sweet to their face, stabbing them in the back when they turn away. Typical.
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OMG, Lea it all makes sense now! You answered the question that has been rolling around in my head for a year! My mother never told my dad about my brother hitting, bully and calling me nasty names because she got off on it; furthermore, the question "Did my mother get off on my pain?" Now, I have the answer and it makes me want to throw up!! I guess, I still have a lot to learn on the emotional side of things--if you know what I mean! I also realize that she causes problems just to throw me off and make things harder on me. What she does not realize that I have an autoimmune disorder and the stress can and has put me in the hospital and if I die there will be no one to take care of her, which is why I am moving out in a year. I learned a few years ago that my mother has and will throw me under the bus, h3ll she'll throw whoever she has to under the bus so she can come out smelling like a rose and I am always the bad guy, but I am learning she really is the bad guy and it doesn't matter who knows that or not because the truth is the truth! God knows the truth!!


Xray,
I feel like I will never get back to myself again. That strong, independent, self-confidence person I was before moving in with her. I never feel validated and I guess I haven't sense my dad passed away. Thank you Xray for the validation.

Thank you both for helping me understanding why I feel the way I do & with the games my mother is playing. I am not crazy; she really is playing games!!

I have learned so much with the help of Golden, Polarbear, Chriscat, and the both of you and so many others. How blessed I am to have such a great support team!

Hugs!💚❤
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Shell,

I would highly recommend the book " Will I Ever be Good Enough ", by Karyl McBride.

Someone reccomended it to me and I found it very helpful!!
It prompted me to see a therapist.
Therapy is teaching me coping skills and how to set boundaries.
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Shell, I am glad you are finding help here. I don’t think the damage a narcissist has done ever goes away, even if you remove them from your life. I do think though that with the right support: therapy, counselling, self help books and websites, plus advice from this forum, you can spot the signs, feelings and behaviours in yourself and deal with them using a variety of techniques. In the UK I have been able to self refer myself to access an online Cognitive Behaviour Therapy course. This helped me to identify and deal with the various overwhelming thoughts and feelings I had about my mother’s behaviour, and to put in place some coping strategies. This is an ongoing process though, as there will always be times when the upsetting feelings come back, and when they do, I have to go back to what I’ve learned, and apply the techniques. It is not always easy, and I have to remind myself to do this when things are tough. I do feel that any time spent in identifying and recognising these problems is time well spent. It might be the first time in your life that you have been able to do this, as victims of narcissism are conditioned to believe that their feelings are irrelevant and unimportant. But it is an important first step, as it’s the beginning of putting your own needs above the wants of the narcissist, and recognising that your feelings matter.
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Shell,

Questions my therapist has asked that I still can't answer:
1) What do You do for yourself?
(Uh, ???)
2) What do You want?
(Uh, I don't know!)

It made me realize that the only thing I want is for everyone else to be happy! Even at the expense of my health! That's not right!

So I am making a conscious effort to make decisions about what I want! And what I need!

When my hubby asks me "where do you want to eat?", instead of saying "I don't care. Whatever you want. " I just throw out the first thing that comes to mind!! Even though I still don't care, at least I made a choice!!

It maybe a small step, but it's a step in the right direction.

You have worth!! And you deserve to feel valued!! Your opinion matters!!
You deserve to have your needs met. Even if you have to do it yourself!!

Power on girl!!!
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Well done xrayjodib! You're on the first steps towards exercising your right to a life of your own! Totally understand that feeling of " anything will do" regarding your own choices about food, what you want to do in your life, and giving yourself little kindness for a change. There is usually so much "self centred noise " from a narcissist that your needs and wants are crushed and dismissed as irrelevant and self indulgent, especially when you are sucked into running around after them. I started to tackle this by writing down one thing (yes, even just one thing was a big challenge!) that I would do for myself and that I wanted to do each day. This has been much more challenging during Covid but I have stuck to it anyway. I call it my "Daily Activity". It varies each day but it will always be something that is good for my soul and gives me some happiness. Examples are: a coffee in the garden, gardening, a walk, a good book or film on rainy days, photography, sketching, baking, a history course I have started which I can pick up and put down whenever I want. You can see some of these are 5 minute activities, others are much longer, so there is something for every day depending on what else is going on. The point is that this is MY time and mine alone. I will have no interruptions or other attempts to undermine this. Some of these things are activities I used to enjoy years ago before my needs and wants took a back seat, others are new projects like my history course. None of them are self indulgent, just part of a healthier life and a good step forward in putting yourself higher up on the agenda. Sending good wishes!!
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Chriscat: Love the examples you gave us of things you do for yourself! Nothing wrong with a little 'self-indulgence' from time to time, either. Women have been taught since birth that it's 'selfish' to take care of ourselves. And to even use a word like 'self-indulgent' to describe an activity we may choose to do (not that you're doing that, just saying.......lots of women DO!) is over the top ridiculous. We care for, and deal with, narcissistic personalities who have NO concept or care about being The Center of The Universe 24/7, yet here WE are, needing permission to do ONE 5 minute activity for ourselves per DAY and then wondering if we're being 'selfish' for doing so! Needing a therapist to tell us it's okay! MIND BOGGLING, isn't it? I think I myself will reserve the word 'self-indulgent' for sitting down with a gallon of ice cream & a spoon and eating the whole thing! :)

Jodi: I can SO relate to you saying that all you want is for others to be happy. I learned long, long ago that no matter WHAT I do for my NM or how MUCH I do, it's never 'enough' anyway, so what's the point?? Oh, I still DO for her, I just stopped feeling the need to jump thru the fiery hoops over & over again, you know? It's either 'good enough' or it's not......not my 'fault' if it's not. And what I find, time & time again, esp as her dementia worsens, is that I'm Always Wrong. No Matter What I Do. So I'm choosing to do less and less.
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Caregivers shouldn’t be expected to run on fumes.

It’s important to refuel. I wish there was a vaccine that would eliminate guilt.

God knows many caregivers need an injection that would destroy guilt from their lives!
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Xray,
I love cooking and baking. I am a very good cook. I am an ok baker. There is something about cooking that calms me down. It reliefs my stress level. Ok, the next thing I tell you, it will probably make you laugh, but I dance in my basement. It might me 5 minutes...it might be 20 minutes. My sig-other has caught me singing out of tune and dancing around. I just put on one of my YouTube play list and let the music take me away. It is ok to laugh at me! My honey laughs at me when he catches me doing it. It helps me to get out my frustration and tries me out. I play Mahjong on my phone. I listen to the Word of God when I need hope, reassurance, or I just feel like killing my mother and hate my life.

The one thing I have always done is make my bed inviting. Probably sounds crazy, but I am insomniac and even though I am on meds to help me sleep. I still make sure that my bed and bedroom is my safe haven. Very good quality sheets, pillows, and blankets. Nice warm cozy fannel sheets in the winter and really soft cool sheets for summer. My sheets are dark colors because that is what makes me comfortable. I have a therapeutic candles I burn when I need it. I just bought a little Christmas tree that lights up for my dresser. If things get to overwhelming for me I give myself a time-out in my bedroom. I also write and sometimes I will post them on "On my Mind" thread. Get lost in a good movie or book. I also have some really nice hand lotions. I just bought a bottle of "Twisted Peppermint" from Bath and Body Works. It is one of my favorites and it makes me feel special.

What I want? To not had/have a NPD mother and a shot of NHWM vaccine. The real thing I want is 'My Freedom' back. Xray, I'll have to get back to you on this one.


Sitting here writing this made me think about my dad. He worked 70 to 100 hrs in the restaurant business. But he always did things for himself. Whether it was buying himself a new toy, his idea of a toy was a new TV, Boise system or some lawn thing. He worked on the yard, worked on the house, made things from old pipes or molds for concrete. He would buy himself a new jacket and we always went on day trips, three day trips and vacations. My point is, he showed me and he did tell me "you have to take care of yourself." I guess, I am a lot like him. I do make it a point for me time.


Xray, you matter too! You have to learn to crawl before you can run. It is very good that you made a decision about where to go for dinner, even if you really don't care...it is a start!

I will have to find that book. Thank you Chrisacat and Xray. Lea pass the ice cream!

Our NPD mothers are bottleless pits that can never be filled...EVER! We can't love them enough, we can't do enough for them, nothing is 'Ever' enough. I am learning that it really doesn't matter what I do for my mother it will never be enough! She is internal empty and she thinks external things will fill her, but it won't...it can't! I could give my mother every material & emotional thing in the world and it still won't fill her. She is a black hole! All our mothers are!!!
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Shell,

Don’t give up. You will have your freedom back one day.

We will all celebrate with you. You will feel enormous relief!
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