Caregiving for a narcissistic mother. Do we do it out of love or out of years of guilt and programming?

EB,

Most of my teachers were fantastic. It was just that one exception in sixth grade. I was paying for my brother’s sins! LOL I suppose that she expected me to behave like he did but when I went home upset and my mom asked me what was wrong, she went to the school and had a talk with her. I really appreciated that.

True, we did receive a good education. My grandparents never raised their hands with my mom. My father’s family did spank him. So, my dad was the one who felt that he had to follow suit. My mom would tell him that he didn’t have to swat us. He eventually stopped.

Both of my parents were about equal in discipline. I think a big expression back then was, “Wait until your father gets home!” Some moms felt it was the father’s responsibility to dole out the discipline. It’s an interesting take. I don’t necessarily agree with this approach. but it was a common method in that era.

Need, I loved the nuns, but when I was in first grade a mean nun use to wack my fingers so I would write with my right hand. She was not at all successful with her method. I was determined to use my left hand. I write with my left hand to this day.I never told on the nun. The nuns were strict in those days but I had a great education.
My mother was easygoing and my dad was the strict one. I came home late one night around 2am I was only seventeen and he was waiting up for me he told me never come home late like that again. I never did until I was over 21. My mother insisted on respecting others. She always had a good word for everyone and if she could not say something nice or postive about a person she would not say anything. She was a great role model for our family. I never got hit as a kid by my parents. When dad was home we told the mark. He was pretty easy going in a lot of ways, though.

Lea,

Wow! You had a right to be upset. Don’t blame you one bit for mentioning that this behavior was ‘a bit much.’

Do you find this to be a more common attitude now than in the past? I do. Parenting has changed. I realize that we are always evolving as a society. Shouldn’t certain rules be timeless, such as respecting others?

I don’t know about you, but we got a swat on the butt for misbehaving, or a ruler smacked on our wrist by a nun at school.. That either caused a kid to behave or in some cases, kids rebelled.

My parents certainly didn’t ‘abuse’ us. This was customary at the time. I actually found a swat on my butt less painful than if I was told that I couldn’t hang out with my friends. I am NOT saying that we should go back to physically hitting children. I don’t think that behavior should be laughed off though.

I was taught to respect my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, godparents, teachers, neighbors, basically any adult in our lives, but my mom was extremely fair by showing me that we as children were to be respected too.

I will never forget that my sixth grade teacher treated me horribly because my oldest brother had misbehaved in her class. I had straight A’s in her class and this teacher was terribly mean to me, even though I had never misbehaved in her class.

My mom went to see this teacher and said, “Please don’t treat my daughter unfairly. Yes, my son misbehaved in your class and he deserved to be disciplined, but my daughter has been a good student with good behavior since kindergarten.” After my mom spoke to my teacher, I didn’t have any further problems with her.

Your point about showing others respect is so dead on! We have all been surprised when children aren’t disciplined, especially when parents think that the behavior is cute.

EP.

Yay! I hope she’s the one!

EP: SD#2 is divorced from her DH but he's still in the picture. Nobody can talk to her about ANYTHING, she's that closed off. 29 y/o and never had a job! Lives off the DH's alimony & child support & he pays the mortgage! She hikes & hangs out professionally, that's about it. When they came here 2 years ago, the child slammed the door in my face and nearly caught my fingers in the door of the bedroom. I was livid. The mother says laughingly, oh that's not nice! She was so rude and awful to me, but mommy thought it was funny. When I told her the bad behavior was A BIT MUCH, she had a meltdown! We'll see how things go this time around. I'm not hopeful, to be honest. And you are 100% right with the analogy about the elders, too. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar and IMO, it's a parent's job to teach a child RESPECT for their elders and how to act civilized in general FFS.

GOOD LUCK with the interview this afternoon for the aid for NM!! Fingers crossed!!

Thank you Llamalover!

I think I might have found an aid! We've been messaging this morning, and are going to talk this afternoon to set up a meeting. She is local to me and seems like a good fit so far. One 4 hour day works good for her once her kids start school in a couple weeks.

Fingers crossed 🤞

Lea I feel you on the 8 days of company 😬 Is SD#2's child's dad in the picture? Just curious why she lets the kid act out the way she does? That's really sad because it ends up alienating the kid when people start avoiding them because of their bad behavior.

This might be a poor analogy but in a way it's not much different than dealing with elders. If they are pleasant, kind and respectful they get A LOT more company and attention than the ones who are always nasty and people avoid (like my mom).
Somebody should subtly mention that FACT around your SD2 and maybe she will take the hint and help her daughter act more appropriate.

I'm about to go back online looking for a companion. So far no luck because it's only 4 hours a week. I'm also going to call around and look for other resources. I want to get this rolling as soon as I possibly can.

Lea: Glad that you and your DH are feeling better.

Chris, these NMs seem to LOOoooove men, don't they? I will never forget my mother giggling like a schoolgirl right after my father died b/c the man across the hall in her ALF suggested (she said, anyway) that she go on a CRUISE with him! Disgusting. She still bats her eyelashes whenever a man passes by her!

The mask mandate around here has been lifted since April and nobody wears them anywhere, except some medical facilities which still require them. Good riddance is what I have to say!

EB, good joke you played on your nosy neighbors!

NHWM, we're ok today, thank you! Spent a while getting the spare bedroom set up. Stepdaughter #1 is coming on Thurs for 4 days and then Stepdaughter #2 is coming the following week with our granddaughter (who's a giant brat) for 4 days. Yay, she says sarcastically. I just love company. Not. SD #1 is fine but #2 and the brat she is raising I just do not particularly like. She's the only one of DHs kids I don't have a soft spot for in my heart, and the child is out of control. Her behavior is horrid with a capital H yet mommy says it's perfect. Yes, she is One of Those Mothers Whom Everyone Despises. The "Not MY Child" mother. The kid bites other kids in school but she's 'just fooling around'. Oh yeah? My kid comes home with a HUMAN bite from a kid who's 'just fooling around' and we'll see how much sh*t hits the fan! She just got asked to leave a cooking class for horrid behavior and get a refund, but mommy said NO, she will STAY in the class b/c she likes it! Nice, huh? UGH.

EB,

That’s so funny! 🤣

Need,I have a neighbor like that so we fixed her good. One day I told her we were moving and leaving most of the stuff behind. I hired a cleaning garage crew so she saw the UHaul in the driveway. Within minutes she told the entire neighborhood.My mother lived on the street her entire married life so most of the town knows our house of three generations. I went out one day and niece was at home. She saw a couple peaking in our front windows, looking at the furniture. My niece looked out the window at them and they left immediately. She talked to the woman and asked why she was looking in our windows. She said she was looking at the house next door. Now we just close the blinds when we leave. I talked to the neighbor that I told we were moving and said it was a joke and asked her how many neighbors did she tell and she had the nerve to say nobody. I tend to stay far away from niosy neighbors and gossip type peole but this time I could not resist playing a joke on her.

EB,

They try pulling the passive aggressive crap and it’s so insulting to our intelligence. Do they really think that we are so dumb, that we don’t see through their tactics?

I do appreciate that this is a ‘safe’ thread to vent!

Oh boy Need. I know what you mean about noisy neighbors and the dumb comment about "I look at you like my own daughter". Glad you snapped back and she deserved it. How insenitive of her.

Thanks, Chris. My neighbor can be bothersome at times. You would think that someone would stop their behavior when they see an annoyed look on your face. Nope! Then she says stupid crap like, “Don’t be annoyed with me. I care about everyone else so much.” She doesn’t care. She’s minding everyone’s business.

Or the statement that really gets under my skin is, “Honey, I look at you like my own daughter,” When she said this to me shortly after my mom died and I couldn’t handle it. I snapped back. “Well, you are not my mom. I had a mom and she’s dead now.” I realize that sounds sarcastic or rude but her comments will rub me the wrong way at times.

She sits on her porch and watches to see who she can pump for information. All of my neighbors are great people accept for this woman.

Feel better, Lea. The last thing that you and your husband need is to feel crappy on top of everything else.

Piper,

I like your hubby’s style with your mom! Hahaha 😆

Lea, sorry to read that you and DH were ill yesterday, but hey, sounds like that particular cloud had a silver lining! 😉 Since you ask, my mother seems to be taking less fruit than she was, now that there have been comments made about it. The "Princess" behaviour continues though. She has latched onto a fellow resident, a chap who is a good 20 years younger than her, to run around and basically do things for her that she can't be bothered to do for herself. She has always been good at identifying people, usually men, as she can play the "poor female" card and appeal to their sense of chivalry. I am also quite cross with her as today the UK has (wrongly in my opinion) lifted all remaining Covid restrictions, including mandatory mask wearing. Typically, mother says as she finds masks bothersome she (selfishly) won't be wearing them, even though the general advice is to do so. She did go very quiet though when I pointed out that all of the shops she likes will still ask shoppers to mask up. NHWM, shame you are being bothered by a nosy neighbour. I expect they could be lonely and just want a chat, but you are entitled to some personal space during your walk. And EP, sounds like DH laid down the law and so you are enjoying some sweeter behaviour at the moment. I hope it lasts, but we know what these people are like. We are forever on guard and watchful for the return of bad behaviour during these "good" phases.

Here's a good one.

Last Friday my DH had enough of the BS and went over to my mom's to talk to her. I had no idea what he was going to say, and he is very blunt in general but off he went. Well one of the first things he told her was that if things don't change then WE are moving and he specifically told her where making it clear that discussions were indeed taking place.

That must have shocked her because she did a complete turn around. I got an apology, an "I love you" and she has agreed to a companion aid 4 hours a week.

I'm going online later to look for an aid. Really hope this works out.

Of course my update has to include another zinger too. She also made an appointment with a local back surgeon for this week. As soon as we had our "truce" she asked me to fill out the new patient paperwork. I knew this opiate thing was looming too. I'm letting the doctor handle that 100%.

NHWM- I need to be better at grey-rock but when I can manage to do it with my mom I do think it helps. I will never be in another relationship with a narcissist again, EVER. They truly are the worst people to deal with, and I personally think there needs to be much more awareness with elder narcs. They need a special kind of care-giving that prevents them from abusing people.

Lea your mom's lies are so outrageous it reads like a comedy, even though I know she drives you insane. My mom lies all the time too. Makes me wonder if she's been a willful liar all her life and I didn't catch them or if it's the dementia? Either way it's hard to deal with. I'm really dreading the false accusation stage, and hope my mom doesn't start with that BS.

Lea and Chris,

I agree, gray rock isn’t feasible for every situation. I do agree that it is helpful in many circumstances.

I have an elderly neighbor who is ‘very curious’ about a couple who lives down the street. That’s her description of it, haha 😆. She will ask me questions about them. I put it all back on her by telling her, “Why are you asking me personal questions about them?” Her pat answer is, “Oh, I am just curious.” Personally, I call it being nosey! I started walking in the opposite direction when she is outside. She drives me crazy with her questioning. All I want to do is go for a peaceful walk in my neighborhood.

I don’t feel any obligation to speak with her. Some people drive their own kids away, then are obnoxious to anyone else who will listen to them.

I guess every neighborhood has nosey people in it.

Chris, seems DH and I got sick from some food we ate last night so we weren't allowed inside the MC when I told the CG we were running late due to feeling poorly. SHUCKS!! 😂 I was able to drop off The Nightgowns and confirm The Snacks from Amazon DID indeed arrive and a box of Ferrero Rocher nut covered chocolates were sitting in her room at that precise moment. According to mom, the sons of bi$%hes CGs told her there we NO snacks for her at all. Soon there will be aliens coming by to snatch her up in their spaceships, too, dontcha know.

Fact Check Everything when dementia is involved, that my free advice for the day. Glad I could make you smile EB and Chris 😁. How's your NM doing in her managed care place these days? Is she still hoarding fresh fruit?

Nhwm, sometimes gray rock works with NM, sometimes it doesn't. It obviously cannot be utilized in a work environment unless you want to be fired! But with an NM, the technique throws them for a loop and is good sometimes. I've gotten pretty good at keeping the phone calls SUPER short and the weekly visits at 45 min to 1 hr max, so my aggravation level is dwindling as NMs dementia is increasing.

Lea, your post made me smile also! It seems you are approaching your mother's constant demands with great gusto! I have to admire you for it and for your energy! NHWM, gray rock has worked for me with my mother. I agree though that you cannot use it in all situations, but when you can it can save you an awful lot of emotional energy. Sorry I haven't been around much lately. I have a lot on with various things at the moment, with not much personal free time right now. Hope to resume normal service again soon!

Good question, I find myself in same position now caregiving for recently diagnosed father with dementia. Who now has become verbally abusive every time I step in the door. Sadly pretty much he was that way, just amplified more.

I am curious about something. What does everyone think about the grey rock technique? Do you think it is applicable or effective in all situations? Have most of you had success with gray rock?

I feel that it is effective but there are exceptions such as, a person can’t walk away from a boss at work. Or if a son or daughter is taking a parent to a doctor appointment, and a parent starts acting up, you can’t cancel the doctor appointment at the last minute.

Narcs will destroy all relationships if given half of a chance, such as siblings, a spouse, Sadly, some people have had narc spouses, friends, neighbors, coworkers or bosses. I think having a narc boss would be extremely challenging! Your job is your livelihood. Most people can’t quit until they have another job lined up.

Oh lealonnie you are so funny. I needed a good laugh today.

Welcome Michele/Bunnymerkel, to the club nobody wants to belong to. 🤐 My condolences on the loss of your dad to Covid. Seems the mother's get worse after their DHs pass....mine did bc her punching bag was gone and now I'm it, even more so than ever before. The thought of her ever pumping gas makes me laugh....or even writing a check, for that matter. She's The Queen who relied on dad for everything (even driving, and refused to drive even when he couldn't anymore) and when he died, I had to take over managing her life. Which means nothing is ever good enough, etc. You know the drill.

EP, sending you a big hug from across the miles. I think you and DH need a nice vacation to a resort somewhere so others can wait on you and bring you cocktails! 😁 Doesn't that sound divine? Since NM is perfectly capable of doing everything for herself, slip a piece of paper with local phone numbers of services under her door and then off you go on a nice vacay!!! I think DH and I are due for a week away too soon.....which is what we tell NM every now and then so we can be incommunicado for a week! It's heavenly! I like Barbs assessment of the "natural consequences" myself.

My NM has been super depressed lately (worse than usual) so the doctor is paying her a visit on Thursday to change her anti depressants. God help us ALL bc we KNOW how the woman reacts to drugs in general. Now shes on a rampage insisting the CGs are putting her to bed "naked" bc she has no nightgowns!!! Which is a lie. So I ordered 3 MORE nightgowns from Kohls and I'll bring the damn things over there tomorrow for the Dreaded Visit. I will root out ALL of her nightgowns from in the closet and/or the drawer and add the new ones to the collection. If need be, I'll order another 6 nightgowns for her just to get her to STOP the chronic b.s. about this manufactured crisis! Last one was about bras. So I went to Target and bought her TEN sports bras so I didn't have to hear about Twisted Hooks and/or the bas**rd CGs stealing her bras. I have 3 more in the trunk of my car waiting for "someone to steal her bras" again and for her to need new ones. Sigh. She's had 2 more falls recently bringing the total up to 76. The last 2 she's blaming on the "piece of junk shoes" I killed myself buying for her a few months back. Which is rich bc she can't walk anyway, and was bending over the bed to put on the shoes when she fell off the bed again. Lately, she's insisting she CAN walk which is just the dementia getting worse. How do you stop a person from falling who insists she can walk when she's wheelchair bound? Ugh.

Just an update and a check in from me.

Hi. I’m new to the caregiving space (one year in) and my mom is very angry, lashes out at me and is manipulative. And, honestly, a lot of this behavior has gone on my entire life….it’s just more amplified now. She’s 83, mentally sharp and in relatively good health, but since my dear Dad passed last year of COVID, she’s having to manage life things that she’s never had to do on her own including pumping gas. I’ve done everything thing I can to help, try to make her happy, offered and researched solutions. She doesn’t like any solutions and has told my brother and I that she would not leave her home until she’s carried out in a pine box. In reality, the house / yard is too much for her now. She doesn’t act out with my brother like she does me, and I know he struggles to understand my experiences that I share with him. We are also in a hard spot as I live 3.5 hours away and he is 17 hours away and she has no friends / family in the area. That being said, I wanted to share my story as a way of intro and to let you know this thread has been the first thing I’ve read that has really resonated with me and I appreciate your honesty / sharing. Im trying to work through this with love and kindness: however, I’m in the phase of seeing a therapist and creating healthy boundaries as all three of us are strained, confused, and lost. Michele

EP: I, too, am sorry that you and your brother are going through this. Big hugs sent.💚

EP,

I am so sorry that you and your brother are going through this. I will certainly say prayers for both of you.

You’re in such a tough situation. I hope everything will work out in your favor.

Piper there is a term in psychology--natural consequences.

Your mother can't get her computer fixed by your brother unless she is speaking to you. If she's not speaking to you, she will have to pay someone to fix her computer.

Stop letting her off the hook for her bad behavior. She will likely show up like nothing happened in a day or two, right?

Nope. Don't buy that. Say "So, mom, let's talk about the companion, or aide or helper or whatever you want to call it. I need NOT to be your punching bag and general factotum anymore.

You need to hire someone to help you because I'm not doing this anymore".

And stick to it.

Barb she's been giving me the silent treatment for days now. My brother wanted my help to fix something she screwed up on her computer, I agreed to go over and help and five minutes later he called me back that she doesn't want me there- so don't go over. He told her he couldn't do it without my help, that's when she lashed out at him and hung up on him.
So.... I have been staying away, and will continue to do so. It's just hard to ignore the woman and go about life when she is right next door.

I am going to make a plan to get away.