My sister stole my dad's money. What can I do about it?

Have you considered talking to an Elder Law Attorney?

Yes I hired one right away. As of this date he said to wait till Dad gets out of the hospital to discuss the next course of action. If anybody out there has had a similar situation I would appreciate any input. Many thanks.

Medicaid goes after the money, not the person. You didn't say what state you are in but most have a 5 year look-back. So if there were assets with your dad's name on them in 2009, they will find them.

I don't know if your attorney disclosed to you what you might do to help yourself in advance. Unless you have unlimited funds, try being direct with him and asking what you might do yourself, versus his office staff or his own time. Tell him you have a budget and want to stick to it. Usually the person who handles the billing in the nursing home, and / or the business manager can give you much info for free.

Has the nursing home already billed Medicaid? If so, ask for advice on disclosure of this CD. The nursing home just wants to be paid, so it is in your and your father's interests to have Medicaid pay the nursing home and recover the money, which they will do if it is disclosed after the fact or discovered on audit. The rate that Medicaid pays is probably less than the daily rate that you signed for on admission. Assuming your dad is not handling his own affairs or is relying on you & your sister for help then the person who filled out the paperwork, or helped him fill out the paperwork to qualify for Medicaid is mandated to disclose any accounts that they are aware of.

Good luck, it will take some work on your part but it will be worth it.

My dad has not yet applied for medicaid. We are in New York by the way. Medicare and his insurance will pay for 20 days in the nursing home which will expire shortly. The home wanted to start the medicaid process. The home is aware of the situation with my dad and my sister. My dad is lucid so I will have him sign the Medicaid application. I don't know what the home does in this situation. I fear they may throw him out. I had signed the admission papers for him to go into the home. I am also afraid that the home will go after me.

They will not throw him out. If it is his money and he is in the nursing home now, contact the Ombudsman and ask her, on his behalf to guide you on this. If the money is your dads, she is placing him in danger by not turning it over for his care - by attempting to scam Medicaid she is also placing herself in a bad situation with the state government at a time they are really cracking down on all of this "protect your assets" stuff that was marketed to people as a way to qualify for state assistance.

Don't be deceived into thinking that it is somehow your fault and burden. If your dad elected to receive care at home he would still need that money. That is why he worked and saved.

Sad as it is, sometimes money and control show us who people really are. Give some people a little bit of control and they stomp all over others. Give some people a little money to hold & they will show their loyalty really fast.

You seem like a good person - take care & ask that people help you.

Dad was sent to the hospital with chest pains. He has a severely damaged heart and is 87 years old. I just got a letter from the nursing home saying that they will not hold his bed since he is not a medicaid patient and will take him only on the basis of bed availiability. My attorney said we will deal with it when he gets out of the hospital. Thank you all for the input. I will continue to seek advice from you all.

Dad was in the home for seven days. Since he went to the hospital, does this mean if he goes back to the home he will only have 13 days left before he has to apply for medicaid.

What do you mean that Medicade goes after the money and not the person. If your sister has spent the money, and refuses to give it back, what recourse does the state have if they go after the money and not the person? Very interesting question...would love to hear the answer.

Olive, deepest sympathies for all you are going through. Call medicare or his medicare advantage provider to get the facts on how many days he has for skilled care. You might also speak to the hospital discharge planner and you might be able to get some help with the nursing homes. It can feel very mercenary this healthcare system of ours - but many people working in the system are sympathetic if you reach out. If the discharge planner is not in your corner, talk to the hospital chaplain & ask for referrals, referrals, referrals until you find a few advocates to help you with this mess. I feel for you, it is exhausting - but there will be a light at the end of the tunnel

Gebaa 00, to clarify Medicaid goes after the money. Olive was concerned they would go after her as she signed the admission forms. Medicaid would not go after her personally instead they would follow her father's money to the person who has it, in this case her sister. Sadly this is not uncommon, which is why Medicare has these rules.

Hope that clarifies what I wrote earlier. I notice you are new on the board. Welcome! when you have time fill out your profile with your story. This is a nurturing environment for all caregivers, so no need to be shy!

Thank you Cat for your comments. I have a similar situation. Once they trace the money back to the sister, and if the sister has spent it...what happens? If there is no money to give back...what does the state do?

My sister claims to have spent the money, but even if she did she has money to replace it since she works and I hate to say it but her husband is a judge. I am sure my dad's little 28K CD was not all they had. If medicaid does in fact go after the money, I will have dad apply for medicaid and they can go after them. It would certainly be justice served.

My Dad has been in a nursing home for nearly 3 months. He is happy and settled but still thinks it is temporary and that one day he will go and live with my sister. Mostly I agree with everything he says as he suffers from dementia and it is no good arguing with him. Discussions of money cause angst so I try to avoid those. However he will bring up the subject at times. If I was to be truthful about explaining that he is in a nursing home and he pays a monthly fee I think he would become agitated so I try to divert him from that. Sometimes he is more 'lucid' and it makes me uncomfortable as I don't want to lie to him, but sometimes the truth isn't acceptable either. Have other people experienced similar issues?

Yes, very often. We avoid the negative and try to accentuate the positive. Dementia and Alzheimer's are horrible diseases. Dad #1 did mention some money early on, but his disease has progressed so rapidly, and he has declined so much, that we barely communicate about anything significant anymore. He cannot even complete an understandable sentence. Dad #2 (90) asks to be paid for the work he does at his nursing home, where he lives on a dementia unit. They print him fake bills to placate him. He wants money to "get his eyes fixed," which isn't possible according to his physicians, who say they've done all they can. They can't fix his cognitive deficiencies, either. He asks where his money is, and doesn't understand that the NH gets all but a small fraction of it for his care. Sad but necessary. We grieve, and they simply don't understand. Our other parent has serious mental incapacities, and doesn't understand things either, but is always striving and fighting about them. What's a Caregiver to do? Seems we're all just doing the best we can. When cognitive abilities start declining, there's not much else we can do. Keep them safe, and provide for their needs in the best possible way, is what we attempt every day.

If she says she spent the money, and her husband is a judge then you, or if your dad is competant send her written notice that he would like repayment, based on her verbal admission that she spent his money. Indicate in the letter that without the money he will be forced to apply for Medicaid to pay for his care.

You will need something in writing from her because you will have to provide originals of all bank statements and financial records to Medicaid. It will probably be easier if you approach this without any emotion. If she replaces the money, then your dad will spend down until he reaches $2,000. If she does not replace the money then the family will have to make a decision. I don't envy you. I hope it is something that can be remedied and does not split the family apart.

Still - you never know what people are capable of until they do it. Hang in there and keep your feelings under wraps - the less emotion the better.

My dad is unaware that my sister took the money and refuses to repay. Can he apply for medicaid and then medicaid can just go after her for the money? I am trying to shield my dad from this hurt if possible.

Bless your heart, Olive. Can't imagine the pain you're experiencing over this. Don't have answers for you, but hope you follow through with a competent Elder Law Attorney and Medicaid specialists. Let us know how things turn out, and please take care of you, too.

I think the judge who is that woman's husband should loose his license to practice law. He should have know this is illegal. Was she paying taxes on that money or was your dad the primary owner?

My dad was paying the taxes on the money. They are trying to say that it was a gift even though they withdrew the money in June 2009. They claim that since Dad opened the account in 2003 it falls under the old medicaid law. My attorney does not believe this will wash because Dad was the primary on the account and he never told them they could keep the money. I am awaiting calls from the Nursing Home and the attorney.

Your atty is right and I hope he will win. Then, he should go over sister and the judge who should be disbared from practicing law or at least found guilty of breaking the law an given a fine for more than what he and your sister stole from you dad.

We need new laws on the books that will empower adult children of aging parents to take people who do these kind of things to court without the parent being the one who files a complaint?

I will keep you posted on the outcome as soon as I hear further.

What we need is laws to prevent professional from marketing the concept of "protect your inheritance - qualify for Medicaid" to people. Medicaid is a benefit for those who are truly indigent - not an incentive to steal from your parents.

You are lucky that your sister and her husband didn't pull the usual of applying to be their POA and Guardian. Or perhaps there is more you don't know. When funny business goes on, they will try to cover it up & hope the parent is too old or mentally impaired to follow though. And if your father passes away, they will cry crocodile tears and claim the money was a gift.

Have your dad send them a letter - through a lawyer if you can afford it. It is financial elder abuse. Document what you can. Tell the nursing home - they are mandated reporters and have to by law fill out a form if you tell them about this financial abuse.

By the way - what is the birth order of you & your siser. Do you have any siblings?

I am the eldest by 11 years. I guess you can say my sister is sort of a trophy wife.

This is exactly why I recommend AGAINST joint accounts between parent and child. The fact is that once the joint account is created, unless both parties can demonstrate they contributed equally to the account, half of the account well be deemed by Medicaid as an uncompensated gift to the joint holder. Period.

Medicaid does not care about what happened to your father's money. The only thing that is important to them is that the money was there and now it is not and it is now considered a gift.

Medicaid does not "go after money" until the recipient is dead. At death, the state will initiate an estate recovery process and if there are probatable assets they will attempt to recoup the cost of care. If fraud is perpetrated against Medicaid a referral could be made to the states attorney's general office for prosecution but nothing of the sort has occurred here.

It is ludicrous to think that a state agency is going to go running around looking for applicant's money either before or during claim...they just deny benefits if there is any question.

What may happen is that a penalty period of ineligibility will be imposed. I have no idea what the amount in question is, but if it is around $35k as your account was your father could be looking at a penalty of up to 3 or 4 months. (One half the account value divided by your state's medicaid rate = number of months of penalty).

What to do? Forget the lawyer!!! He has no authority and in the end, really no interest. You will pay ridiculous amounts of money and get no result...I promise you!

Instead, call whatever the equivalent is for Adult Protective Services in your state (the Long-Term Care Ombudsman typically only deals with matters between a facility and a resident, not matters between family members and residents so they would be the wrong agency to contact). They LOVE cases like this.

The reason you want to do this is: 1. It will scare the bejeesus out of your sister, 2. It will be a lot easier to have a third party involved instead of he said/she said and you don't have evidence to call in the police. 3. When you apply for Medicaid you are going to ask for a "hardship exception" to the imposition of penalty so you want your story documented. Having it documented as elder financial abuse will help you in your dad's cause.

If, other than this issue your father's assets are spent down, forget about the lawyer when applying for medicaid as well. Let the facility do it. If you need an attorney to handle the hardship issue (which you shouldn't) find one who will bill you hourly without a retainer.

To Annlidiot:

Hi Ann,

I have noticed in your postings you seem virulently opposed to any form of financial planning around Medicaid. I very much appreciate your sentiments and I, too, hate the concept of "go on Medicaid and protect your money for your kids" and will not work with families where that is their primary goal.

But to disparage the whole notion of long-term care financial planning by combining personal resources and public benefits is simply not fair and does an extreme disservice to those in need.

For instance, in the case of this poster, what if instead of spending down all of their father's money to qualify for Medicaid I was able to move that money into a trust that would allow the income and principal to be spent on what the father will need but Medicaid will not pay for? Like what you may ask? Well, how about eyeglasses, dentures, hearing aides...how about clothes?!? Entertainment, transportation, the list goes on and on...

Upon the demise of the father if there was anything left in the trust Medicaid would be paid back for what they spent on his care and if after that there was any residual it would go to family.

I don't see a problem with that, do you?

Or, instead of spending down all monies I showed this family how to keep Dad at home by using Medicaid in combination with an immediate annuity that would supplement Dad's income. At his death the same would happen with residual funds as above.

I don't see a problem with that, do you?

Or what if I could have shown this family how to pay for an assisted living facility using a combination of their own resources and Medicaid benefits? If that were the case, he might very well be able to transition to an assisted living facility as opposed to staying in skilled nursing. Where would you rather see your loved one?

I don't see a problem there, do you?

I don't ask these questions rhetorically because I believe this is a legitimate debate and I am genuinely curious as to what people feel is fair and reasonable and what is not. Let's face it, we have to deal with this as individuals but also collectively as a society so I appreciate everyone's point of view.

So tell me Ann, is what I do a good thing or a bad thing?

P.S. It is a shame on this poster's sister that she has no problem stealing her dad's money feeling that he going on Medicaid anyway...if that is indeed the fact pattern. But note that in this case it had nothing to do with a planner of any stripe...it was just the sheer narcissism and greed of a family member yet you were quick to point to unscrupulous professionals. So I'm curious about the chip on your shoulder!

RS Robbins -

I am not "virulently" opposed to anything. I stated a fact. Unfortunately the marketing provides the mechanisim for the unscrupulous. I stated that the money is there for the fathers care and should be used that way. You have no idea what I think, you just wrote something because you didn't like what I said and you wanted to promote yourself & your service.

I notice too that you misspoke. A previous poster said medical follows the money - you jumped on that and then backtracked to qualify it as following the money once the person is deceased. You characterized that person's comment as 'ludicrous'. These are fairly strong words - made all the worse by the fact that you are a professional whose business is telling people how to manage their estates. I do not have a chip on my shoulder - I am simply a caregiver who is giving my opinion to Olive who started this thread. We are supposed to be safe and allowed to speak freely without recriminations. Do you have a reason to be on this board - I do not see an Agingcare Expert symbol next to your name.

I am curious though, why as a professional are you contributing to this board? I am not a big fan of being singled out because someone disagrees with me. I am less than impressed when someone stomps on me because they can. I notice that you then segue into a dialog about how YOU could have helped this family. I think you have crossed the line, and the insults are not ok. Please think about the people who participate before you start throwing around judgemental remarks that are hurtful.

Ann...

I am sorry if you felt my comments were judgmental or hurtful. It was certainly not my intent. I contribute to this board to share my experiences not only as a "professional" who works with families in crisis everyday, but as the son to my soon to be 82 year old father who has been afflicted with Alzheimer's for the past 5 years. I am satisfied in that I have contributed much information to these forums for which I have received appreciative feedback.

If my language at times reads forcefully it is because it is my intent. The problem sometimes with boards such as these is that misinformation is perpetuated and readers come away with impressions that are not accurate.

So, for instance, when I read over and over again comments or questions about Medicaid "taking a home" or "going after money" I feel it important to firmly dispel such notions.

Similarly, I addressed this issue with you specifically because if I am not mistaken I noticed you had repeated it in several posts. Of course you are not the only one and where others have stated such opinion I have let mine be known as well.

I did not intend to self-promote. It was just the parlance. I could just have easily said "If an attorney recommended..." or "If an advisor recommended...", or "If a social worker recommended..." and if I were sitting here really crafting my phrases I may have thought of that so thank you for pointing it out.

Lastly, I want to apologize again to you and to any other reader who may have taken offense. The last thing I would ever want to do is make someone feel as though they have been disrespected. I agree completely this should be a safe and welcome place for us share and learn.

Thank you, Ann, for taking the time to let me know how you feel and what I could have done differently.

Hi this is Olive. I spoke to the attorney and he said that what would happen is a penalty would be imposed on the missing 28K which would be about two months worth of medicaid benefits. However, Dad would have to state that he gave that money away as a gift which I don't see happening. Dad is still lucid so that won't be pretty when he hears about it.

On whom will the penalty be imposed? Seems the one possessing the money should pay...even if they don't still possess it. Wouldn't that be considered stealing? Especially if your Dad didn't authorize it. Can he file a civil suit for his money?

Medicaid will deny my father roughly two months of benefits. My dad will find out about the missing funds. Hopefully she will be shamed into returning the money. My dad is in the hospital and I don't think he can take that kind of stress. I will keep you all informed.

Bless you for looking out for your Dad's best interests. I surrendered several policies for my Dad, too. (Even though they were insurance policies in my and my sister's name.) I figured the money belonged to my Dad, and he needed it to pay off his just debts to creditors. Hope your Dad is doing better soon, and that you are taking care of yourself, as well.