Women and daughter caregivers - changing roles from a changing time?

It is an interesting question. GA. Here in Alabama we have a society that is split between the old and new ways of the world. Women in the "new" families are raised to get an advanced education and to work outside the home. Women in the "old" families tend to be from more primitive Baptist congregations. Women in these families are raised with the expectation that they will make lots of babies and spend their lives serving others. They may go to college, but often it is a soft major like performance music. The goal is to teach music to children and to play in churches. It is not to become a concert pianist that tours the world.

I don't think either one is bad, but they sit in judgment of each other. The "new woman" talks of how repressed the "old woman" is and how it is not fair to raise girls that way. The "old woman" says the "new woman" is of the world and not of God. Not honoring parents, obeying husbands, and having as many children as possible is not acting in accordance to God's wishes. (And don't get me started on the sanctity of marriage!)

To be a woman right now means that someone will criticize, whatever you do, in the old South. The religious right has been losing their stronghold, but it is still quite healthy. What is going to happen in the future, I don't know. I do think one of the most wonderful things about women is their capacity to care for others. I hope we don't throw that baby out with the bathwater as society evolves.

Still, I think of a time where society has solved the problem on eldercare so that women don't have to sacrifice so much to take care of others. I think it was easier to tackle childcare, because kids are cute. Eldercare facilities tend to want an arm and leg for pay.

BTW, I like the talk of Asian women. I've heard in the past that Japanese women do this and Indian women do even more. And I think, yeah, but why would we want to be like them?

I sometimes joke that my employment has covered all the traditional womanly roles, childcare, house cleaner, cook and now I am a caregiver to my elderly mother. I haven't done any sewing yet though...
Every one of these jobs are at the bottom end of the pay scale.
Although the women's movement bristled in the 70's when women were described as “just a housewife” the attitude behind it has persevered, only now it is held by both men and women and directed at those who are employed in such jobs. Women may have been emancipated from having to depend on a man for our livelihood and self worth, but we have not left behind the attitude that traditional women's work has little value.
So where am I going with this? Not every woman (or man for that matter) would want to give up a satisfying career to care for a parent or spouse, but unfortunately those do are often impoverished because their contribution is not seen as having any value, indeed they are often scorned by others for dropping out of the race and marginalized. Politicians pay lip service to the benefits of the army of caregivers and applaud how our dedication saves our healthcare systems (whichever country you are in) millions of dollars, but in reality little has been done to ease the financial burden of the individual caregiver. They can't add up those unpaid hours when it comes to contributions to future pension plans and future employers will continue to look askance at the blank spot in their resumes.

cwillie, if I could like what you wrote 10 times, I would. Very well stated.

Interesting thoughts all. I'm a 60 year old man. I've been participating on this site for awhile now and a couple of points are clear to me:

About 98% of the posters are women and a large amount of these women are caring for their husbands mom and/or dad. I'm sure many of these women are caregivers by choice and wouldn't have it any other way, but I think we all (a few men maybe) know that caregiving is seen as traditionally as women's work.

Men's point of view? Most could care less and are very grateful that wife, sis, granny, auntie, girlfriend are changing the adult diapers. I say most, yes there are some wonderful exceptions to the rule, I acually know a couple of men who do what needs to be done and wife keeps her job and sanity.

To be quite honest I didn't want to be left solely responsible for my elderly parents but due to the death and disentagration of most of my family I'm it. I would have loved to have had sis or auntie jump in and I would never have set foot on this web site. Trust me, I'm a very reluctant hero.

Given the deck stacked against women politically , economically and otherwise attitudes are slowing changing, at least in this country. Men are assuming more childcare and housekeeping duties and eldercare duties. But it has been slooooooooow..........

I don't think you can raise such a broad without addressing American politics. With the turn to the extreme right in the US you can forget about things getting any better for minorities, working people, students, caregivers and the elderly. Government has become a bad thing which should be destroyed. You're on your own. Stack up the bibles and guns and may the strongest survive. Any offence to tea party members wa totally intended.

Ps I hope the site guys don't delete this. This took for ever on my mini I pad!

Raise such a BROAD topic....I meant to say...good grief....

Thanks for the answers - lots to think about - regional attitudes and expectations, social issues, politics...

I'll be back after I've mentally digested these as I really appreciate your insights but you've each raised some very important issues. I appreciate your responses, very much.

Not long ago my Dad [93] asked me to quit my career so I could have more time to be around him and Mom [97] as they still live by themselves in their large home.... I then asked Dad "did you quit your career to take care of your own parents?"...... Dad became silent, I knew what his answer would be and he never asked me again.

I did add to his discussion that since I am a woman of my generation, it will take MUCH longer to obtain the retirement level that he and Mom have, because of the wage gap I faced for all those decades. Back in my youth, I got my degree in Accounting but all employees were interested in was "how fast can you type?". I lost out on a promotion with a Fortune 500 company, it went to a male employee who didn't have any college and had been with the company only a couple of years... [sigh].

My parents still are bias when it comes to doctors who are women [Mom claims men are smarter, women should be home having babies]. Mom doesn't even like female sports casters [what do they know about sports].

At least now female students in high school don't automatically have to take "home ed" class, and the male students take "wood shop" :)

Windy, ok, was that a play on words when you said "Raise such a BROAD topic." :)

Flyer, I well remember shop class. When I was in high school the only sport for girls was cheerleading. My, how things have changed. And, my use of the word "broad" was not meant as a play on words. I'm not that clever!

GardenArtist - thanks for raising this question. I've been doing a lot of thinking about this too, in a somewhat related vein.

I often read statements to the effect that fewer women are available to be caregivers now because most women work outside the home and have to work. (That statement is countered by statistics showing that working women do as much caregiving (for the elderly) as nonworking women - they just spread themselves thinner to do it.) I think both statements are missing the better part of the point.

I have worked all my life, from baby-sitting and dime-store cashier jobs in my teens, then factory work to put myself through college, to a 30-year career as a legal consultant (from which I recently retired). I believe that paid labor, and especially professional work, changes our view of ourselves in profound ways. We learn that we have talents. We learn that our time and energy is worth something, a lot of something. We figure out what we like and what we don't like, and what we're good at and not good at.

Caregiving is something I would never do as a career. I don't like it and I'm not good at it. Well, maybe I am good at it, but it doesn't utilize my talents in a way that challenges me or stimulates me or nourishes me. Because of that, I don't get satisfaction from it. At heart, I don't feel I ought to be doing this at all.

Being retired, I have plenty of time, but that's really not the point. Not to me. Another consequence of working at paying jobs for 30+ years is that you expect to be able to retire. Homemakers don't retire, but employees do. You expect to have that time to enjoy the fruits of your many years of labor. Not to launch into a new (unpaid) career at something you would never have considered doing as a job.

So yes, the emotional conflict is the part of the original post that resonates with me. I am completely conflicted emotionally about giving up any of my remaining time on caregiving. It's like the old song "How you gonna keep 'em dow on the farm, after they've seen Paree??"

Windyridge you are a breath of fresh air. And you need to get one of those little portable Bluetooth keyboards to use with your Ipad though I think your typos may be well-tolerated or even enjoyed until you do :-)

It's certainly true here. My father (85) is very clear that he wants & expects me to care for him, and my brother to contribute zero to the effort. Brother was POA for Dad's sister, who passed two years ago. But nobody ever suggested he should be a hands-on caregiver, even though he was unemployed at the time she started needing care.

He laments that my brother hasn't found employment commensurate with what Dad & brother think his capabilities are (a can of poison worms). But seems quite oblivious to the damage to my career and income caused by taking time away for caregiving. I am not close to retiring, either in age or financial security, so this is a rather big deal. Also he sees my partner's lesser income as somehow making him a failure, never acknowledging that I have chosen to take this path of providing so that partner can pursue his art as a (fledgling) business.

Carla, I am right there with you re caregiving--I don't like it and I'm not good at it. I know I *can't* keep doing it if I am to remain even somewhat emotionally and mentally healthy. For all the same reasons that I decided early on not to have children.

And so we shall continue touring assisted living facilities....

GardenArtist, to your second point I learned from a professional colleague (Indian expat) that there are now many businesses in India which provide hired labor to fulfill an adult child's traditional responsibilities to parents, from delivering gifts to full-time caretaking. As career opportunities for women continue to expand there, I expect this will be a growth industry.

Remember that males still make more per hour than females for the same job, with the same qualifications. Last I heard, it was 78cents on the dollar that women make. This makes it easier for men to pay others to care for their parents, while women rarely have the discretionary funds to pay for help, so they do it all themselves. Add to that, that the person with the heart for caregiving, is sometimes not the most hard-headed financially saavy sibling. The siblings who "looked out for number ONE" have their 401K's, their retirement homes, their vacations in the bahamas, and of course they can proudly say "I worked HARD for what I've got, I EARNED it all myself!" Sure they did, to "lay up treasures on earth" for themselves, and not giving any to their aging parent or to the sibling working their life, health and future retirement away, in order to care for the parent they all shared. The caregiver is usually a woman, but the siblings who do not help at all, are both women and men. They usually have some fantasy that the caregiver is OK financially because they inherited the ancient house, or because they lived rent-free while being "on duty" 36-hour days, for years. And years. I don't know if it is women or men, or just temperament. Some people do whatever needs to be done, if no one else is doing it, they pitch in and do their best to meet whatever need is present. Other people do not sacrifice anything, have never considered it, and have built up elaborate philosophies about how sacrificing anything for anyone is bad and codependent and is not taking care of yourself first, which lets them go their merry way without any twinge of discomfort.

Just a comment on the Asian traditions mentioned in the original post. At least in China, it was always the rule for the wife of the eldest son (I think) to live with the son's family and take care of the son's parents. This has been changing for a long time now, especially since women have become such a big part of the workforce in China. The recently had to pass a law requiring adult children to visit their parents. And the laws still require the children to support the parents, but it isn't always done automatically. Sometimes the parents have to sue for support. There was a NY Times story a few years back describing one family where the elderly widowed mother sued 3 or 4 children for support.

I recently read one of Pearl S. Buck's novels called East Wind, West Wind, which was written in 1930 right on the cusp of major changes. The female character marries (by parental arrangement) a man who was educated in the West, and he ultimately refuses to follow any of the old traditions, and drags his reluctant wife along with him. He moves her out of his parents' house the first time the MIL speaks a sharp word to her. Eventually the wife acquiesces in her husband's wishes (even unbinding her feet for him), and it's a very interesting story about how deep cultural beliefs and time-honored practices are pushed aside in the course of one generation. If anyone's interested.

Just a quick comment - my head is still spinning from the excellent insights and analyses being posted.

Carla, thanks for clarifying the eldest child's position on carrying for parents in the old China. I had forgotten that aspect. Buck's novels, some of which both my mother and I read, were as I recall excellent historically and culturally, and gave so much insight and perspective on Chinese culture.

I've been wondering how all the cultural changes will affect some of the more rural families, as well as the upheaval this will cause in the care of elder folks, particularly since the current regime has set its goals on much broader issues than care of parents in old age (issues such as militarization).

But at least (to the best of my knowledge), foot binding is no longer a standard practice. That's even worse than wearing high heeled shoes.

No, GardenArtist, foot binding is no longer current practice. I think it's actually illegal now. You can see some photos online of the last surviving footbound women - they are all elderly now.

Carla, I have seen them; it was gut wrenching and just turned my stomach. There was also a detailed description in one of the books I read, of the preparation to soften the bones to bend them so they could be bound. I had trouble getting through that passage.

FYI Y'all , Pearl is from my home state of West "By God" Virginia. Also Don Knotts, Soupy Sales and Chuck Yeager ( The sound barrier guy). Not that any of this matters.............

I remember reading on these forums where a parent had appointed their son to be the financial POA even though he had no sense of finance, instead of appointing the daughter who was a CPA. It was just the old stereotype that men are better with money.

My Dad thinks all women love to shop, including grocery shopping.... I could never get through to him how much I despise shopping. He looks at me like my hair was on fire. That just can't be true, because I am a female... [sigh].

I am so glad when I see the younger generation taking more of an equal role. More men are being stay at home Dads, thus understanding what it all takes to run a household.... that gremlins don't come out at night to do all the laundry and housekeeping.

My sig other told me last month he does as much housekeeping as I do... made me wonder in what world is he living in. I asked him when the last time he washed the windows inside and out [never].... last time he washed the kitchen floor [never]... last time he dusted all the furniture [never].... last time he washed the curtains [never]... last time he weeded the flower beds [never]... last time he mowed the yard [never].... last time he swept the deck or the garage floor [never]... last time he chased down cobwebs in the house [never].... the last time he cleaned his tub/shower/floor [never].... last time he gathered all the dirty towels and washed them [never]... last time he vacuumed the basement floor/stairway [never].... sigh.

As I watch my daughters' lives, I've come to think that the boomer generation women have been the guinea pigs in a large, social experiment. While we embraced the idea of being able to be have careers outside our home, others in our lives were still in the traditional mode. Men, having been raised in the Donna Reed model of families, were less than ready and willing to jump into the domestic chores. And so we had Collision #1 - women, who were energized by the opportunity have a wonderful career, found themselves stretching to work two fulltime jobs. Add to that the expectation of all that we were to do all the same things our mothers did, just as they did them. And while our parents praised our successes, they still had the traditional expectations of daughters. We were expected to jump in with whatever help or request our parents had, even if it was a task they could do themselves or hire out. We ran around with our Daytimers like the Energizer bunny, trying to fit in more and more. The role of caregiving to the entire clan, all three generations, still lay squarely in the lap of the women.

Now, our kids are grown, we're finding our energy flagging and our parents have greater needs. And we have Collision # 2- daughters who are pulled between their own families, jobs and home are now expected to do whatever and whenever to care for parents with no experience in the stress of juggling such things.

Reflecting back over 40 years, I'd have to say I don't feel that we've been "liberated". While we have more career options, we've been enslaved by expectations of those around us who harken from a previous social era. I'm heartened to see that my daughters have watched and learned. They've seen me trying to be all things to everyone. They've seen the struggle as I try to balance 2015 responsibilities with the 1950's parental expectations. Their spouses are more involved in domestic chores and more engaged as parents. My girls seek balance more - they are less chained by unnecessary traditions. They have better balance between their own families and our larger family.

Linda, thanks for you excellent post. I have met many younger women and some my age, who decided early on to ignore the Donna Reid, June Cleaver vacuuming with her pearls on, and not get trapped in the 50s. Honestly, in today's economy I can't imagine how two parents taking equal parts in family life can pull off raising children, working two or more jobs for global companies that don't give a sh*t, and having any quality of life. For single parents....well we all know hard it is.

Someone mentioned the decision to not have children. That's a whole other can of worms/debate, but I know it gives me pause when young people I know are popping out babies in this uncertain time. I often have to bite my tongue and not blurt out, "What the h*ll are you thinking".

And Flyer.....After the housekeeping lecture is the sig other living at the Days Inn. I feel sorry for the poor guy. Do you have my house bugged? I seem to remember having that exact same conversation not too long ago. What women don't understand about men's cleaning standards is men don't clean anything until we see ACTUAL dirt. (And sometimes not even then, but if it gets smelly, well then take action with the Clorox wipes) women clean as a matter of principal. "You know we haven't washed the celings in quite a while. I'll get the bucket and brushes." This is an actual quote. How'd yall get that way?

Windy, LOL, we learned to super clean the house top to bottom from our Moms because that was her job description as a housewife. And as daughters we took noticed, as boring as it was at times. Imagine ironing for an hour, how exciting.

Not only did I take notice what Mom was doing, I was also shadowing my Dad which I prefer as he was using noisy tools making stuff :) So cool. Much more interesting!! At 5 years old I was fixing my own broken toys. Thus I had dual training.

You could be right about how the male sees dirt in the house... back when sig other was selling his home, his Realtor use to call me asking when was I flying back to visit, as other Realtors were complaining how dirty the house was. Oops.

My ex hubby use to use the "I will make such a mess out of this chore, she won't ever ask me again" ploy. I can still picture him wrestling with the vacuum cleaner when it grabbed a throw rug... at least he patched the hole in the wall. No, I never asked him to vacuum again, it wasn't until decades later that I learned about this best kept secret of getting out of chores :P

Windy,I think that the current generation of parents both taking equal parts in domestic chores and child rearing have a much better chance of a reasonable quality of life than we did with one person picking up a disproportionate share of the load. We talk about how hard it is for families to make ends meet, much less be able to have a parent stay home with the kids. But we also have to look critically at our parents' lifestyle. Our house was 800 sf, we had one car, no cable, cell phone bills, ate out very rarely. Diapers were cloth and kids wore hand me downs.

As to the housekeeping differences, I will venture out on a limb here and say that that is rubbish. Most of the women I know don't have time to think about washing the ceilings - they're too busy trying to make sure the bathroom is sanitary and the dishes are done. I don't see differences in laundry, for example - it's been worn, is dirty...wash it. Dishes are clean or they're dirty. To me, it's simple - we're all working outside jobs, we all live here and we all make messes, so it's logical that we all do the chores.

I saw a statistical analysis of people who shopped Walmart, Target, and two of the dollar stores. I was shocked to see that there were very few men -- like about 90% of the shopping was done by women. The more we hear things are changing, the more we realize they haven't changed at all.

I'll believe that women are finally equal when they can take off the 4-inch heels, wash their faces, and still feel good about themselves. Barbie is still alive and well.

Yes, Jessie, you got that right.

Oh my gosh, Tom Cruise's ex-wife, Katie, was in a TV ad for age defining makeup... earth to Wall Street advertisers, she's only 36 years old. Why are we now scaring 30 somethings into looking younger?

I guess for the same reason that Bruce Jenner wanted to look like a hot young woman, instead of 65 years old like he is. If he had to look his age, he would have probably stayed male.

You know, from what I see, there is a lot of pressure on both men and women. Whoever thought that men would shave their chests and underarms. Some even wax their whole body. Ouch! It is getting tougher out there for everyone to look "right." Older people know better, but younger are taught not to listen to older. I remember thinking older people didn't understand the changes. Now I realize that the more things change, the more they stay the same -- only a lot of times they get even more extreme.

I just can't understand all the plastic surgery that is going on, in all age groups. I remember my grandmother being beautiful at 90 and she aged gracefully. A little lipstick and a little rouge :)