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When God created Adam and Eve, they were perfect. Perfect people do not grow old, have diseases, etc.. They were made in the likeness of God - meaning that they have the freedom to choose. They can have all the fruits in the garden except for one tree. See, they have the freedom to obey God or disobey Him. Freedom of choice. Freedom of decision. The serpent came, and put doubts into Eve's mind. She in turn, did the same to Adam. They chose to disobey God. They were thrown out of the garden of Eden, and now lived an imperfect life - where the end result is death. As you look at the genealogical tree in the Bible, each of the descendants had less and less length of life. Because as the years went by, those born were moving away from the original perfect body that Adam & Eve had. Until now, today, we're filled with cancer, dementia, etc... to a life expectancy of about age 100 and less. So, yes, it is believable that Noah had lived up to 500 years.

You know what's fascinating is the time of Babylon, etc.. when the Bible mentions the Nephilims (giants). These giants are the off-springs of the kicked out angels ('fallen angels' by others) and a human parent. The offsprings came out to be giants. It reminds me so much of those mythology stories we read in middle school. You know, Hercules, etc... Humans with super strength...
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No sendme2help - I would pay for my bible like any good heathen would. What other misinterpretations do you mean?
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Rainmom, 'think I will hit a bookstore'?? Does this mean you are going to rob a bookstore to get your bible, or is this just another misinterpretation?
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GA, by viewing those sections as part of a history that has by now been through at least three translations over many centuries, and by picturing the scene…

1. "Well now would you look at that! A sheep! Phew now I won't have to sacrifice Isaac after all…" (or possibly he'd been thinking Isaac was turning into a right clingy little brat and could he please have Ishmael back? - but then relented.)

2. If everyone had listened, and spent less time mocking Noah and more getting busy with a few more arks, maybe we'd still have unicorns. But I don't think animals ever do do anything to deserve their fate, do they? Just happens.

3. I do have trouble with, but then I have trouble with rather a lot of the haggadah. "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - why??? It is somewhat easier to imagine internal wrangling in the advanced Egyptian bureaucracy and the overturning of labour relations concessions, don't you think? - but administrative problems in the civil service of the time wouldn't make anything like as gripping a story.

4. How would you have liked Joseph for a brother? And what kind of idiot tells his much larger and more numerous brothers that he had a dream in which they all bowed down to him? He did do quite a lot to deserve what he got.

5. It's a seismically active region. Look at Herculaneum and you can see what they meant. She should have done as she was told and run as fast as her little legs would carry her.

My personal suspicion is that when a particular person says that God made him do it, if you listen carefully you might hear a metaphysical voice saying "What?! No I didn't!" Or, in other cases, "Good idea of mine, I thought."

And as for the Book of Esther - ! Read between the lines and you've got an absolute blockbuster of love, pride, power and death there. Most unsuitable for children.

I know I'm on dangerous ground here, and that there are many people who do consider the Bible to be if not physically written by (how, exactly?) then directly received from God. And I am happy for them if that is how they best make sense of their faith. But I don't see it as a requirement for faith. It is history and prophesy and a valuable account of human development, including its regrettable aspects - and you can learn from bad examples as well as good ones, after all.
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Now bring it!
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CM, if you're referring to my post on what I see as the disjunction between a loving and violent god, I meant no offense, nor did I intend to infer anyone is an unbeliever. I apologize if I offended.

RainMom, I did tutor various subjects at a community college level but never actually taught as a professor at a college level. I did take a lot of history courses - I loved them! I found it so fascinating and it put so many things about life, politics, countries, wars and more into perspective.

I would agree with your professor on everything you wrote that she taught. This is I think how history from the beginning of time helps people see the commonalities in religions, as well as the differences.

I've always thought that the Greek gods were the most like human beings - fighting, carousing, loving, manipulating...they weren't so elevated and perfect that they were beyond belief. It was more as if they each had their own turfdoms, rather than onmipotency.

What's also interesting, if not fascinating are the cultures that worshipped women in various ways, whether it was as mothers and givers of life, or as deities.

Eddie, I fully, totally agree that organized religion is a business. I also consider it institutionalized as well as organized. And it's a business with generous tax breaks.
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... other people's belief systems. Could you just imagine realizing that everything we've believed in with every fiber of our being doesn't make sense? That we've been conditioned to believe and obey without letting our brains do the work?

In our country, there's freedom of religion but no freedom from it.
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Rain,

That's exactly why I'm a recovering Catholic -- and I don't mean drugs. A nun once asked me to define "faith." My answer was "continuing to believe in something even when reason tells you not to." She said my comment was borderline heretical. I said "If God gave me a brain, I'm sure He meant for me to use it. ... How can I build faith without the freedom to ask questions?"

Compared to a lot of Bible-thumpers in my Bronx neighborhood, I don't overvalue my place on Earth. As a spiritual being having a human experience, my moral compass is naturally set to be a better man, a better person, and a better human being. I don't need a church or some religious formula to do these things, because my religion is to LOVE & RESPECT everyone else as long as they don't put their hands on me.

Here in America, organized religion is a business. Too many holy rollers dictating what to think, how to behave, what to do with your money, even what to wear where. Here in the Bronx, many of my neighbors go to church to hook up with married people; yet believe that condoms are a sin. ... Practicing what you preach is a mere ideal.

There's nothing wrong with having doubts and shaking the foundations of Christendom every now and then. At least you're being true to yourself. When you're a kind, self-respecting person with an even bigger heart there's no need to be validated by others. The snag we run into sometimes is that our logic threatens
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GardenArtist - I've been meaning to comment on your first post for a while - but keep getting side tracked (story of my life!). Anyhow - the things you mentioned made me wonder if you taught college level History of Western Civilization in Oregon in the 80's! You sounded so much like my
professor! She taught that religion and God was a man made phenomenon - to explain away hurricanes, drought, plague etc and later to control the regular folk which in turn gave power and riches to "the church" - pointing out in medieval and Elizabethan times that popes, bishops and the like wielded more power than royalty. The hope of heaven and fear of hell kept people in line. When she talked about the bible being the greatest work of man made fiction ever produced I was like "WHAT?". While it was revolutionary to me I half expected God to smite the the building at any moment.
So I begin my reading of the bible with an open mind - but already know it's likely at best a loose interpretation of reality - I'm mean, does anyone really think Noah lived to be well over 500 years old?
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Oi! Who are you calling an unbeliever? I believe in God. I have however discarded all conviction that any one school has a monopoly on Him. And I'm not alone - what's good enough for Pope Benedict, given his recent announcement that Jews do not require salvation through Christ to achieve eternal life and ought not to be proselytised, is certainly good enough for me.

You cannot hope to understand God - when the Church says things like "in knowledge of whom standeth our eternal life" that knowledge is not the same as understanding. It is an awareness, the 'fear' as in 'fear of God', that God is in the world and you had better conduct yourself accordingly. That is also why in most traditions God's name is unpronounceable: this makes the point that God's true nature is not within human beings' grasp to understand.

Unfortunately, the repetitive tendency of one religion after another, or its leaders rather, since time began to claim that it has cracked the puzzle and hit on the only acceptable approach to belief has been responsible for some - nothing like all, there have been great atheist murderers and tyrants too - of humanity's very worst behaviour through the ages. But it's when people depart from their founding principles that this happens, not when they keep to them. There is no commandment to burn anyone at the stake, and as far as I know no sura that recommends the beheading of elderly archaeologists or the suicide of teenage girls. It's the use of faith as a political weapon that leads to these grotesque perversions.
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For those who believe that the Christian God is just, merciful, compassionate, loving, kind, etc:

How do you reconcile this with Biblical accounts like these acts, attributed to God, but hardly compassionate or in any similar category?

1. Abraham's near sacrifice of his own son because God commanded it. Killing one's son today would be a felony and possibly a capital crime.

2. The massive loss of human and animal life during the 40 day flood. What harm did the animals do to deserve to be drowned?

3. The murder of the first born of Egyptian families to convince the Pharoah to allow the Israelites to leave. That might even be considered an act of terror because it's a mass murder.

4. The vicious treatment of Joseph by his brothers.

5. Turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, if that's even possible, which I doubt.

There are other instances as well. I raise these not to provoke conflict but to point out that the concept of a loving god which ignores these acts for which he is allegedly responsible hardly reflects compassion.

How do the believers here reconcile this inconsistency?
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The Bible gives me so many wonderings, maybe it is because I am an unfavored child myself. Like I wonder why god preferred Abel's lamb to Cain's fruit. Cain was a farmer and Abel a shepherd. That didn't see fair. :-/

And then there was Job, who held up under all that adversity. But everyone else around him died. I had a lot of pity on the family of Job who paid such a high price. I hope that they did get a place in Heaven for what they went through on earth.

I am so simple and naive. When I read about orders to go wipe out all the people living in a land, including women and children, I don't know what to think. I'm glad we didn't have that in the New Testament.

I find myself wondering as I read or hear things from the Bible -- how much is God and how much is Man writing? And I find myself wondering why we spend so much time worshiping Jesus when he said not to praise him, but the one who sent him. I do like that. It is so simple and undistorted.

I have no idea what Heaven is like. Maybe we are fully spirit then and live in a Collective, sort of like the Changelings do on their planet in Star Trek. I just hope I don't get cast into a lake of fire because I have trouble with the Old Testament.
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Thanks for the readsble bible suggestions. I found a site on line that offers many versions/editions of the bible and in several languages - for free, yeah! Best of all I didn't have to give any information at all - the bible info/choices is easy to access - so no hardcore bible thumpers calling/mailing etc. If I find myself sticking with the reading, I'll probably hit a bookstore. We shall see.
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Country mouse and Rain mom: I found remanding the New International Verson is helpful and for fun I have a Rogets Thersaurs on the side. Unbelievable the variants one can find
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Well ill throw my opinion in as the token believer. I think the first thing is understanding who God is by definition. God is just, merciful, forgiving,compassionate and loving. If you make up your own ideas and worship what you think God is like then you aren't worshipping Him but worshipping yourself. So you need to understand Gods nature in spirit and truth. After that comes faith to believe he knows what's best. No one wants to be old and suffer. But we as humans have found so many ways to keep old people alive past their time that they do experience suffering. Also out world is not perfect. We live in a fallen, broken world. That is why we need a savior release us from it.
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Just passing this on because many of you will get a kick out of it, not because I believe it. Lol.

"Believing in your own hallucinations is called insanity.
Believing in someone else's delusions is called religion".

...
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Gotquestionsorg?
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Thanks, cmagnum! I am dyslexic and for some reason just stuggle with the flow in the more traditional versions - by the time I get to the end of a sentence I've lost the meaning of what I've read and have to reread - takes forever! I have the same problem with iambic pentameter.
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One of the most readable translation of the Bible is the New International Version. It is also a reliable translation. The English of the KVJ has a lot of beauty, but the reading level is way to high and many of the words are archaic.
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… is a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the sons unto the third and the fourth generation of them that hate me, but showing mercy and lovingkindness unto the thousandth generation of them that love me and obey my commandments...

I can't see myself quoting the 21st century rendition of that from memory in thirty years' time - you can't beat it. And no I don't want to know how many errors I've made!
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Crumbs, don't ask me! It's the King James every time for me because it's the resonance of the 17th century vernacular that sticks best in my head. Not that I'd want to give a false impression: my main reason for looking anything up in the Bible nowadays is pursuit of a crossword answer. But seriously, if you're looking for a good contemporary version, why not call up (or look up online) your nearest college with a theology department and ask them for something accurate but readable?
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Countrymouse - you are one impressive country mouse! All this talk got me digging out my bible - and after blowing off the dust, thumbing through it. A long time ago I committed to reading the bible cover to cover. I didn't make it very far as my copy is full of thy's and thou's, doust, and shant's...is there a modern version that's still true to the original but easier to read - that you can recomend?
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JessieBelle - Yahweh and Allah very much are the same one and only divinity, the same as is the God of the Old Testament and the New. The three traditions then divide into differences of opinion about whether Christ was an earthly manifestation of actual God as such: yes he is no he isn't yes he is ad infinitum; and then the various churches divide again, like a kind of chaotic fractal pattern, into different views of whether or not and how literally if so that earthly presence was and is tangible - all the way from transubstantiation in the Catholic mass to Unitarians wavering on whether Christ was even Divine, and I think the Friends decided some time ago that it isn't important whether he was or not, what matters is following the example.

Islam has the greatest respect for its Judaic and Christian forebears - Jesus is definitely up there in one of the levels of Heaven, can't recall which of the seven but he's a major figure - but insists that Mohammed, peace be upon him, was the final authority in terms of revelation. Except that Islam itself has since fractured over the status of disciples of Mohammed, quite vehemently, at which point I bow out because I get very lost over who's who and what the argument's about…

…and I just imagine God sitting there with his head in his hands and sighing 'oh for heaven's sake!'

People's talent for violent disagreement and horrible cruelty has nothing to do with God and everything to do with their desire for very earthly power.

The early schism you mention, by the way, was not just Ishmael splitting off from the Abrahamic community - he and his mother, Hagar, got kicked out into the desert once Sarah got given Isaac and didn't want them around any more. I have to say I thought they got a pretty raw deal - that bit of the bible doesn't even attempt to justify this startlingly callous treatment of them - but perhaps it might help to explain why it took a few millennia for the Arabic nations to be reconciled to the monotheistic model.
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Jessie its why painters have wet paint signs ....just so as we will touch it to see if it is wet and then moan when we have paint on our hands!
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Will I stand in your presence
To my knees will I fall
Sendme2help - Bang
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I've always believed that there is something more than we see of this objective reality. Had enough unusual experiences to be convinced of it as fact. But I have struggled with the concept of a loving God ever since real suffering entered my life. I tend toward the idea of God as pervasive, everywhere, like a substrate of existence....its more impersonal but I don't feel as abandoned by That as I would a personal God who saw what happened yet did nothing. Some say that from the greater perspective it all makes sense, that if you could see your life as part of a greater pattern or weave of life it would all fit to create something beautiful. But if your life has more dark threads than you can bear, I'm not sure how one accepts that with grace.
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I will have to do a re-read of everyone's comments; some deeply honest and others highly intelligent. Wow, what a great discussion. I too have experienced despair over the many kinds of suffering in my personal world it is really difficult to go through. I want to share the idea that what the divine plan is for our "consciousness" or the "soul" beyond this earthly existence is so beyond our understanding, involving the whole cosmos and time/space in such a way that our current experience is but a small slice; in fact, so small a slice, that our comprehension could only be very weak indeed (which sucks!). All that to say: the suffering we have on this earthly plane may be over in a blink of an eye, and that once we become our timeless, holy selves, we may say, "oh, that was okay, I get it now. .I had to take that journey to find out something about myself and about love or strength or whatever" On the other hand, if I die tomorrow and stay completely without awareness, well there is the end of suffering and what a relief! Personally, I have a sense of the eternal even though I am not a devout religious person. My trust in God is this: the person I was when I was younger would not have been able to offer the caring that I have since given to those I love and many others that needed my help. Likewise, I have learned to receive love and assistance (even harder). How did I become a generous and loving person who can give without calculation? That was due to the small inner voice. Without that voice, I would still be selfish and scared. I listened to that voice, and the result has been at times beautiful and rich. I have also pushed too far for someone else's improvement and I have hung back at times when I could have helped someone else, and I have not given enough to me. Its a messy thing, this life! But, all in all, there is a benevolent presence that informs my life. It comes within, but is greater than I. I have to trust that. There are many dark and sad events I can do nothing about, and yet I have to witness them. Being aware of the trauma, the suffering and the injustice of life is sooo hard, for my heart's desire is for all beings to have mercy. For me, that desire is itself a divine suggestion. I hope I can follow the truth of my heart so that it lights up my own life in deed or thought or feeling. I believe even a thought can make a difference. I couldn't do it alone, because I have it in me to be quite morose; God must be helping me to have these feelings of love and mercy. On the note of the afterlife, I had a friend who died. I was there near his end and his body really fell apart; not a good death at all. I had a dream several months after he passed. In the dream, he came to tell me that he was okay. He showed me his skin, which was silky, his face was radiant and he was young again. He told me that he was doing great and showed me what he was doing. In the space around us appeared little electric blue lights configured like 3 dimensional blueprints or constellations. In fact, he said he was designing these things. I woke up quite sure he was alive somehow, somewhere. . It could be my imagination, but I prefer to think it is God's imagination making itself known to me.
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One of the biggest problems I have with religions is the beginning and Adam & Eve. God gave them this wonderful garden, but told them not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree or they would surely die. We learn later that god knows everything that has happened or will ever happen. Then comes the big question. If god knew what was going to happen with that tree, well then why did he put it there? I have been troubled by that since I was a kid. Wasn't it a bit of a setup? I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't set poison in the middle of the room, then tell them not to eat it or they would die. The Creation is shared by Christians, Jews, and Muslims, I believe.

Then I wonder if the Muslims split off from the Jews at the time of Ibraham (Abraham), then is Allah the same god as Yaweh? I've asked this to some people, but it just makes them mad for some reason. So I leave it alone.

I believe strongly in God, but the Bible (and similar books) confuse me utterly.
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CMouse, your first quote reminded me of a line from a song by The Band I think...

IM CUSSING HEAVEN AND PRAYING THERE AINT NO HELL

Always liked the expression...

I RATHER LAUGH WITH THE SINNERS THAN CRY WITH THE SAINTS
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Will I sing Hallelujah?
Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine......

(You can shoot me now, I am ready).
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