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As a kid he was cruel with his words and hands. Even now, he is old, and sometimes I see that rage in his eyes again. my husband and I are still young (40) we had our children young, and have 4 grandchildren.It was their room we gave to him. We adore these babies and used to have them over as often as possible. Now Im afraid of what he might do to one of them, so they almost never come now, and if they do I try to keep them away from him. He talks to them the way he did to us. he says mean things and tries to correct them even when its not apropriate. he says hes teaching them right, however I dont see how sternly telling a 18 mo old child that they need to color it the lines is teaching. Its mean. and shes a baby, just learning fine motor skills. I dont want her to be afraid to come to Nana and Papas house. But more than that I dont want any of them to have that fear I had as a child. I cant point this out because the past he remembers does'nt include the terrorizing of his family. when I tried to tell him he would not be allowed to bully my family he told my husband " shes crazy, I never mistreated my family, its all bullshit" So not only was he mean he lies about it. Not that i want to say "look here this is what you did" The past is gone. I just want my babies to feel safe, I want to feel as though they're safe. Im afraid as his dementia progresses this will worsen. I worked in a nursing home when I was younger. A fancy one for people with private pay, and the day i walked off my job I told my boss I would not put my dog in a nursing home. But I may have to put my father there. The guilt is terrible heavy. But I love them more.

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My 0.02 worth, based on the information given, would be to put him in a NH and let Medicaid take care of the cost...if he has any property or a home, use that directly toward that and get him out of your home ASAP.
Your husband may not understand but it doesn't matter. It is the two of you's home but he is your father and you KNOW he was abusive and you KNOW he potentially still is (I'd say if he had the chance, it is very likely so don't take that chance)...and your grandchildren do not deserve to be fearful nor do any of you deserve to be deprived of bonding and spending time together because of your father's abusive nature.

Karma is a b****, as they say...and you get what you pay for. No one made him abuse you all and if he winds up in a NH and hates it...he still is getting off easier than you and your siblings did. It is the kindest thing for all concerned, IMO.
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wow this is all the best advice I've ever seen you do need to get your dad out of your house I got my 2 sons away from my mom. 2 one way tickets to Hawaii but they were over 21 and not tied down. But you have grandchildren and children that have lives. God Bless you. Please keep in contact with the log.
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Get your Dad out of your house. You are letting him stay in charge. Don't let him control you any longer. The stakes are too high - your happiness and mental health and your grand-kids safety.
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These stories are so heartfelt. God bless you all. My mom has always been not so nice we were latchkey kids day and night lived with 2 different relatives I called her by her name for the longest time. She's slapped me several times as a child and as an adult. She never stops talking if shes not right, then she gets mad and will not talk for at least 1-2 hrs. that's when I get a break. So sometimes I cant go on here because I'm busy cleaning up all her messes. Kissing her butt and listening to her non stop gossip all day long. I get tired then sleep for 4 hrs every night. Once u help her your doing everything and it never stops. She wants me to put her pills in the boxes but then accuses me of stealing them. She call me a liar a bad daughter and stealer. I haven't had a date for a year I rarely leave this apt. My sister will not come over ever. she talks back about my sweet dead relatives.The ones that are alive make excuses not to come over. I just want to say Hey you are mean and you complain way to much now one wants to here that. But I don't. I breathe and keep listening. And pray to God she'll go to Heaven.
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Your father doesn't remember being abusive because he never saw what he did as abuse. Most abusers don't.

Amy Tan, author of The Joy Luck Club, wrote about a conversation with her demented mother who said, "I think I wasn't always a good mother, but I can't remember." I forget the answer, but Amy Chan was able to forgive and reassure her mother.

If your husband has sympathy for your father, he has to lay down the law to him, man to man. If he won't do it, or if it doesn't work - it probably won't - you need to get him out of your house. The NH will put him on antipsychotics or antidepressants, and he won't be able to refuse to take them. The right meds will turn him into a somewhat nicer person. Put him in the NH. Don't feel guilty.
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Your children/grandchildren will see you stand up to someone abusive, and will not be abusive to you. You cannot reason with your Dad who was abusive, so you'll just have to figure out how to deal with this. Don't worry, he's an angry man who will never see that what he did was wrong. Your children/grandchildren however will feel your love/strength and reward you for standing up to the abusive person and getting them out of their lives by refusing to be in his presence. You cannot tell any child they are doing something wrong unless they hurt someone. Look how your self esteem was hurt that you are letting him have power over your sense of what is right/wrong. "No one can take advantage of you unless you let them"= Eleanor Roosevelt. Take care of yourself, your grandchildren. Let the old codger think what he may, but he doesn't deserve the respect he's "commanding". Respect is earned, not a right. Time to stand up to the abuser by refusing to participate. For free help contact Al-Anon. It will help you deal with his alcoholic behavior, even if he's never had a drop. You're doing this to stop they cycle of abuse. A lasting gift to your family, and most importantly your own physical/mental health. Time to find a place that will accept the abuser. It won't be easy, but it's the right thing to do. God Bless and keep you as you heal, and as your family sees you leave a legacy of the right thing to do when someone cannot see their abuse as wrong, and you cannot try to prove you're sane to a crazy person. Been there. Done that.
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The psycho-dynamics of abusive behaviors are pretty classic.
Your feeling guilty is classic reaction to having been abused/manipulated.
PLEASE get your Dad OUT of your home, into non-family shelter--a facility-- that can deal with it appropriately...you deserve better.
PLEASE find some counseling help for yourself, too, to help you understand what happened to you, and learn better tools for coping better with life, to help you avoid anyone else doing to you what your Dad did. --those who have been abused, tend to get steam-rollered by others in our life who do similarly to us--UNTIL we learn better to "see those trains coming" and get off the tracks!

Please keep us posted!
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...flaky mouse is sending things faster than I can think and type!
In our family, abusive/controlling/manipulative behaviors have continued through at least 3+ generations that I know of for sure. Likely longer than that.
But every once in awhile, one child in a generation will choose to leave the family and never look back, or, block the offender from their lives to protect their own kids, for instance.
The ones who return to try and patch things up, hoping the offending parent will somehow show their "better self", usually end up getting further destroyed.
When there is abuse by a parent, there is no really safe way to have them in your home. You WILL be abused further, and your children and grandchildren are at risk, too.
A chronic abuser needs to be placed in a care home run by others. You can still be their advocate, if that works out. You can still visit, if you wish or if you can.
BUt allowing them into your home is a huge mistake.
Our son still cannot bring himself to come to our home anymore, after he experienced what Mom did under our roof...even though she got moved out of here, he still cannot deal with the triggers inherent in visiting this place.
Find your Dad a more appropriate place to live!!!
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So much good advice!
It is so hard, growing up like that. We carry the after-effects of that trauma, thru our lives--the best we can do is learn to deal better with all the triggers for that trauma, and learn to protect our children from it better than our parents did.
Abuse usually travels from generation to generation, in one form or another, unless and until at least one child stands up and chooses to stop allowing it in their lives any longer.
An abuser can be so subtle, other siblings do not see it, leaving the abused kid[s] on their own to figure out how to survive.
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It seems to me that the only way to make sure that your father does not EVER abuse your grandchildren is to NEVER have them in the same house together. It only takes a moment - while passing in the hall, when you run to answer an important phone call, while you are in the bathroom, when he has unsupervised access to one of them, for irreparable harm to be done. It does not matter what kinds of verbal boundaries you set or what rules you give him, he will not honor those boundaries any moment he is given a chance to act the way he wants to. And your grandchildren may never tell you, for all the reasons that children who are victims of abuse don't tell - the abuser threatens to hurt them more, or to hurt people/ pets the child loves if they tell, or fear no one will believe them, or fear of tearing the family apart if they tell, etc. They will just live with it, and they will be changed. It does not matter that he denies being abusive in the past, you've seen him be mean to an 18 month old baby. If he has treated that child that meanly in front of you, what might he do in a moment that you are not there to challenge him? That is enough evidence for you to justify (to yourself and to him, and to your husband) getting him out of your home. You don't need him to agree with you, or to admit anything - he never will, so don't spend any time waiting for him to. What matters is what YOU know and how YOU feel. YOU are afraid for their safety and for their innocent hearts. Don't let him suck you into any arguments over it, just get him out, whatever way you can. I know, easier said than done. I think of all the stories I've heard about women who were victims of domestic violence for years and finally somehow got the courage to leave when they saw that their children were being, or were about to be hurt. A good place to start might be to call the Alzheimer's Association's 24-hr helpline. They are incredibly kind, compassionate and knowledgeable, and they will listen with understanding and give you referrals and send you whatever materials you need to point you in the right direction. But until he is out of your home, do not have your grandchildren over. That is the only way you can be 100% sure that they won't be hurt by him.

It will take a lot of strength, but you can do it. Be strong, girl. We are all pulling for you, and for your grandchildren.
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Yes start looking for someplace for this guy to live. Just going out and investigating will help you feel more in control. Don't let this guy ruin your adult life. Your grandchildren only have you for a short time, give them the gift of a loving grandma who is with them. Get this guy out of your house ASAP. He is your father so tell hubby you expect him to support you and what you decide for Dad. Find AL that is locked down, go to Senior Center and ask about a social worker. Call your local hospital and see if they have any referrals for Seniors.
And if he ends up in the hospital again refuse to bring him home. The hospital will bring in a social worker and they can figure out what to do with him.
You were treated poorly/abuse as a child don't let him do it to you as an adult. You deserve more!
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I'd like to address the issue of "guilt."
Did you do anything wrong? If not, perhaps what you are feeling is the sense of being trapped between what you think "a good daughter ought to do" and what a good wife/grandmother ought to do".
Do not be manipulated by violence and anger. Of course, that is your habit. Certainly, as a youngster growing up, you did that in order to survive.
Now is a new time. You are an adult, and can make decisions. You have a lot of power over him. Certainly making sure he has adequate care is in alignment with your values. That doesn't mean he should be under your roof. You have a whole family of others who will learn this way of being if they are exposed to it. As you said, it is important that your grandchildren aren't exposed to it.
Think about what actions you can take to create the highest and best good for the most people in your family. Then take that action. Life is full of hard choices and they must be made. Even doing nothing to change is making a choice.
I wish you the courage to change the dynamics in your household with bold loving action.
Wishing you the very best.
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You say your father has always been with this angry behavior...I would not bring my children around him... And I would tell him the reason why you are choosing not to bring them to see him.... He must remember how he treated you as a child, there is no way if you were to bring up instances that he would forget every single one of them....He just chooses not to remember.. Your children don't deserve to be treated in that way...
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Since your father was abusive when you were a child, and you still fear him, please do not allow him to abuse your grandchildren. I was a case mgr. for Child Protective Services and children are forming their brains the most from birth to age 5, so your young grandchildren will be affected when someone mistreats them. Get your father into a facility so you can enjoy those formative years with your grandchildren. No one should have to live in fear of someone. Best wishes!
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Get him out of the house. I know that you can't force someone into a nursing home, but you can force him out of your house.

What he did to you was not love. It was control. He is still doing it. Ask him what his long term plans are. Then, say you will help him find an efficiency apartment, tomorrow. (or whatever.)

Nursing homes have changed. There are a lot of good ones. But you need to cut this tie that is bringing your family down. I want to say this gently, do you think that you are co-dependent on him and perhaps still looking for his love? Good luck.
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Going to the "state home" should not be feared. In our county, it's one of the better nursing homes. Keep in mind, its workers are county-employed (better benefits, sometimes better pay), so they stay longer. Most places (regardless of what they cost) are revolving doors when it comes to keeping their nursing aides. It is employees that make a good facility, not decor; as you found out by your experience in a fancy nursing home. Private pay doesn't mean you get better care.
To me, your father has made his own choice to live in a nursing home. Demented or not, his treatment of you (as a child and now) is his own choice. He's proven his behavior can't be modified. You gave him a shot at living with you, now he needs to leave. Get him on Medicaid (if he's not already) and move him out. Soon. Your kids and grandkids come first. He is threatening those relationships, so he's made his own bed, now he must lie in it.
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"Butterflygrl" post was a good one and a voice of reason and priorities. Of course her parent wants out, all they think of is themselves. This is typical of narcissistic behaviors. "Grl" don't let them pressure you. It's the "easy button" approach. Put your thoughts and fears into a legal letter verified by an official.
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Agreed that you should not have your children/grandchildren around abuse, regardless of the causs. If abused, the victims carry that around with them...You did not create this mess but you are here to make sure/certain that there are no other victims. Not all abuse is physical but it can still have lasting harm and consequences. You have to be the one to establish the level of anger and abusive behavior on the part of your father then determine if you need to move him. Abuse comes in many forms. If need be, for your sake, record some tyraids (sp), wait a few days then listen and follow your gut. Take care. Abuse has to stop with you.
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Normanthecow, This post is amazing in that it is exactly what I am contemplating with my father. My father was not only a domestic violence abuser to every woman he was with, he is an ex-con who finally "reformed" albeit late in life. A diabetic w HBP, he has been having dementia episodes for the last few years. His wife was taking care of him but she passed in 2012. He had gotten to the point where he was falling every time he stood up. He went to the hosp w blood sugar 700+. Now he is in a nursing home near me. All he does is opine every single hour of every single day to leave. He thinks that he is literally in prison. He is so stubborn and even though he was abusive earlier in life I was considering removing him and taking care of him full time. Many people are pressuring me to do this because he seems so desperate to get out. I had almost decided to do it and then it came to my grandkids who are small like yours. There is no way in hell I will be prevented from enjoying the little tiny moments for one single minute of their lives. I just cannot see placing them in danger and my daughter is the one who brought it up. She said that she was worried even for me. The only other solution is to hire a burly orderly and I just flat out cannot afford it and I won't endure anymore abuse in my life. Why is it that these people can be so mean as parents. I just don't understand that generation's approach to childrearing. So hang in there, He sounds at about the stage my dad is at and he needs a NH with a locked unit available. I am beginning to figure out that they will most likely have to move my dad into a locked unit at the point that he gets violent. They can't have the other patients be in danger either. Oh also a big thing they did was put him on psych meds that I think were long overdue in his life. He is on mood stabilizers anti depressants and they knock him out when he gets agitated which is exactly what he needs!! Sorry for all you purists. They were afraid of him when he first arrived- asked me if he had ever hit anyone in his life and I outright lied. It isn't if he ever hit anyone but how many people. He fought all of his life so I expect he will resort back to that as time goes on. It's really hard and I can really relate to your post. You go play with those grandbabies, you know how fast they grow! :)
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My heart goes out to you, and to others who have and are still facing a bullying parent. There is one undeniable fact, a bully is a bully until they are stopped. Easier said than done when you are the child (even when you are an adult child). Your husband did not grow up with you, so it's easy for him to have compassion for something that he does not understand. From an outside perspective, if you had come to me for a consultation, I would counsel you to have him moved to a locked-down unit (surely there is a diagnosis of dementia at play here...if not, get one). This will resolve the issue of care and provide you with the peace of mind for your grandchildren to come and visit more frequently. A bully will not reveal himself to someone he knows is strong enough to stop him (both physically and emotionally), like your husband. Your father has behaved in this manner his entire life and sees nothing wrong with it. For you protection, your families protection, and your father's, please, have him moved to a lock-down unit where elopement is not an option (running away). In the meanwhile, please be cautious, I have had occasions where clients did not take this advice and the situation became volatile.
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Norman -- "madge" and "one of 3" are right. He took joy from your childhood. Don't let him take joy from your current years. Also, do not let him show abuse to your grandchildren. There is no person on this earth who, being that hateful, should be allowed to continue it toward innocents. If a stranger acted that way, would you allow it? Likely not. You sound like a caring person. Talk to a counselor who specializes in family-dynamics. Find out how to set some boundaries verbally. If that doesn't work, well, you have tried. Then, make the hateful person move elsewhere. Hugs.
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Normanthecow, I see that independent living and assisted living are out of the question for him. Then it is time for the nursing home. I read somewhere that 30% of caregivers die before the people that they are caring for. You are young yet. He took the joy of your childhood. Don't let him take the joy of your middle years.
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Btw, normanthecow, my mom qualified for low income senior housing which includes utilities and leaves her grocery money and money to pay for her helpers a few hours per week and her groceries. I felt so hopeless for so long that I didn't try to get any help with her; thought this is just the way it is and that I had to bear the entire burden. WRONG! There is assistance out there! Look for it, today!
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Thank you all for your kind advice it is truly appreciated. As for AL that's where he came from, in March I received a call from the ER nurse at 2am letting me know he had been found, naked(again) wandering around. Confused and disoriented he was unable to remember much. He did have on his medic alert necklace, besides dementia he had HBP and uncontrolled diabetes. He was able to leave his AL facility on several occasions with out any one stopping him even though he was naked, he was able to walk down the hall, take the elevator down 5 floors stroll past the office and security and walk right onto a busy Chicago street. At the hospital the Dr said he would not release him unless he was going to have full time care or he would go to a state nursing home. He was eating whatever he wanted, drinking, and only taking his meds occasionally. My husband says hes just an old man and he has pity on him. I however have none. I know that sounds terrible and I feel bad about it. he says he has dementia, the thing is he never, never behaves this way toward my husband. He came from a culture where the man was king and the women and children were property. I know I cant change his behavior I couldn't even try. Ive had to start taking antidepressants. Hes like a black hole that sucks the happy from everything. I really am trying to handle this but Im losing it. Im afraid I will become bitter, just like him.
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Most of us are such good-hearted people that we will put up with anything, for awhile, and almost anything, forever. Normanthecow, get your father out of your home. He had no right to abuse you when you were a child. He has no right to abuse you and yours now. Obviously your journey is not his journey. It is my understanding that in my state, the next time my mother is hospitalized, she will stay three days, move to rehab for ten days, I think, then to skilled nursing facility (nursing home). The facility will keep her there no charge until medicaid kicks in, then the money they get back from when she first entered the facility will be applied to her debt. After that, the facility gets all but $30.00 monthly of her social security check. The local nursing homes have people who do the paperwork for you. You can go check on him once a day, different times of the days. If he is pleasant, stay and visit. When not, say bye-bye, see you tomorrow. The mean have been mean all their lives and they will be mean on the day they die. They will make every attempt to suck the life out of you. The mean are the true vampires in our world. I have abided by "Honor thy father and thy mother." Dad is dead for many years, took care of mom to my own and my family's detriment. No more. I honor her by making sure she has a roof over her head in a safe environment, food to eat, clothing, medical needs met, and company of others if she will take advantage of it. I visit her five days per week. If she nice, I stay. If not, I take care of whatever needs and I leave. She has helpers twice weekly. But when she can't live semi-independently, she goes to a nursing home. Period.
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My mother was verbally abusive with me growing up (only physically abusive once)...she lived with me for about six months ten years ago and I found she didn't view me as a seperate person, she gave away my belongings to other siblings, telling me "You didn't need it!" or "You never used it!".

I finally confronted her, then cut communication for about a year. I don't know about the stealing but her demeanor towards me is completely different. I think she realized that I was serious about not listening to the abuse anymore...we have a good (not great) relationship now and she never crosses the line anymore. It helps me that her memory is going pretty fast and she remembers less and less every day. It's hard to hold a grudge or bitterness toward a woman that is truly clueless about what happened. (and no, we've not discussed me specifically but she can't remember where she used to live or the stores she used to shop in..)

I guess my point is this: at some point you have to put your foot down. It's HARD, I know it is...but you have to. For your own sake, not just for your kids..and ulimately for HIS sake...because he doesn't want to be in a NH anymore than you want to put him there.

but if you DO have to, remember this: it isn't your decision, really. He is making the choice: he can live by house rules at your home or he can live by house rules at the NH. And trust me, they won't let him hit ANYONE there either
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Oh, I am so sorry for you. There are many things you need to understand about your father. One is he will never change and could become worse with age. He sounds like my father. Harsh, critical, yelled at us, fought with mom over nothing. Just always hard to get along with. These types usually have a lot of anger and tend to be narcissistic. My father was, as is my mother. They complimented each other.

Don't subject your children to this behavior. End it with you. I had a wake up call when my father died 6 years ago. I was not sad, did not really care. We had had little to no relationship and in the end it was apparent.

Denying his behavior is classic narcissistic behavior. Don't think you will change him but also don't doubt yourself. They never will take responsibility for their behavior, it is all your fault. I wish I had a nickel for every time my father said I was crazy. I would be rich.

Don't leave your kids with him. If you can see his bad behavior imagine what he is doing you can't see.

Take care.
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Oops..I keep forgetting to talk about mom in the past tense.
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Me, too. That's why I put up with father all these years while helping him with mom. He verbally and physically abused us. Mom did not have a broken nose when she became bedridden. One day, I noticed that her nose is crooked. She gets black eyes once in a while. He likes hitting me in the head...always worried what I would way say to people when I go to work with a black face...that i fell off the stairs (one story house) or walked into the door? Anyway...father's in the hospital, and he was going to punch the nurse changing his pamper. She stopped and called a male nurse. I have texted to my 6 siblings for help and of father's physical abuse...didn't matter....better it was me than them...And that's why I was trying to get normanthecow what's it like to have someone like that in your home. If she hops around, she will see that he is NOT going to change. He is going to get worse. If he's verbally abusive now, he's going to get worse. He's going to Assume that HE is the head of the household and not her husband. Why? Because he is the Father, and they should listen to him.

If she hops around, she will see how others dealt with this. No money for AL? Then try Medicaid. Sell his home/property to help cover his expenses, etc...

Sigh...with father in the hospital, I'm enjoying this house without worrying about feeding and changing his pampers. No verbal abuses. Wow! I'm sooooo enjoying my temporary freedom. Enjoying it as much as I can!!!!
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book idea is good if you can afford assisted living, I can't
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