Your mom sounds a bit like me, (also abused, molested as a toddler and again as a teen, and later raped multiple times), except that I DO always go back and apologize to my children, and I am constantly working at getting better. I stuffed down deep all that pain for years and had relapses every 6 to 10 years during the time I raised my kids. I also held several part time jobs, volunteered in several schools, and was a Scout Leader for my sons and my daughter. Most people never knew, I held it together very well most of the time. When I am in relapse I am out of control and much the drama queen, but I have moments of clarity during this time where it hits me what I have done or said and the guilt is TREMENDOUS. More than anything in my life I wanted to be the mommy to my kids that I never had and screwing it up at anytime, I hated myself then. I feel VERY grateful that my kids love me. So I just keep plugging along in therapy and I write and write and write. It's when I write that I gain understanding of the things that I do and the bizarre way of thinking I have learned from the woman who birthed me. (I refuse to call her mother) Understanding myself helps me to undo some of the damage and learn new ways of thinking and doing. I WAS a better mommy than N., MUCH BETTER, and I will be an even better Grandma and Great Grandma. My kids always knew and know they were and are loved and wanted. Not just by words alone, but by actions.

Chimonger, you are a strong woman and very understanding. I will not forgive N. because she refuses to believe she is anything but perfect, better than the rest of us and continues to play her games and hurt people, (she rented a room last October from a nice Christian couple and they threw her out after 3.5 months!!!) I am glad that you have found a way to forgive your mother, but more glad that you keep your distance. I like you very much and I want you to be safe.

chriskrys,

I agree...on some levels.
There was also an admonition that said "Go, and sin no more!" Not to repeat the sinful behavior....unfortunately, that admonition is too often forgotten or ignored.

There are all gradients of behaviors, that run from full awareness through on-and-off awareness, to totally unaware. Where on that behavior scale anyone is,
may be determined by many factors that could include the person's early childhood imprinted "programming", whether they were abused as a child and growing up, or neglected, or physical and/or mental illnesses, or nutritional repletion, or life experiences, etc.
My Mom was yet another generation of abused children.
In those days, that was compounded by being "abandoned" by those who otherwise should have been her protectors, including legal systems, other relatives, etc....but in those days, they were pretty ignorant of how abused kids needed helped--in their day, "she is very little; she will forget about it and be fine".
Well, she didn't forget about it, and she was never again "fine".
She merely managed to get-by barely under the radar of flagrant mental illness. She had years in a row when she almost was able to present a "normal" facade, put herself through professional training, and actually worked at that for about 10+ years, paid off a fixer-upper house, single-parented all her kids as best she could...but when life threw hard stresses at her, the imbalanced behaviors came out more and more.
Because kids in that situation don't know any better, they see it as "normal' and often take on similar behaviors without understanding it does not have to be that way, and those become the siblings who help tear apart family relations when hard stress hits--like taking care of aging elders or disabled family members or each other. Sometimes those kids DO step up and help or do care, but the imprinted behaviors derail things repeatedly. It can be crazy-making, and is a recipe for disaster.
No amount of one member trying to pull things together will work, when other members buy-into the stories and opinions of the elder with imbalanced behaviors---AND, the person with unbalanced behavior patterns of a lifetime, only gets worse with age--they can become terrifically conniving, manipulative, and make increasingly poor choices--which they increasingly use to unbalance the choices and behaviors of the people near them who are most vulnerable to that.
Seems like they know what they are doing, right?
But not really.
Mom has had a pattern of calling me in great distress, saying dramatically how terrible she felt that she'd hurt someone's feelings badly. Those calls were always done while she'd been drinking or using. It took me years to learn that those calls were NEVER meant to be acted on [no, she never wanted the listener to contact the harmed party to let them know how bad Mom felt for doing harm, only that Mom needed a confessor!] .
In her mind, confessing to someone who was not witness to her actions, was good release for her emotional stress AND protected her self-perceived integrity from having to admit she did something rotten to anyone. She could go on with her life as if nothing bad happened. Til the next time...
But the harmed person--not so much...all they could do was get on with life....kinda like Mom had to do after she was molested as a toddler.

She perceived herself as raising independent children who didn't have to depend on parents and family for support--like she'd been expected to be.
Reality was kinda different--but yeah--she DID make us independent, according to her inner guidelines---just not always in productive, reasonable, logical ways.
Her ability to make rational choices was often seriously impaired.

But, despite it all, she has always known she was doing things that caused others distress, when her inner brakes failed to engage to stop her from doing it
Once the act was done, she was unable to admit it or apologize for it to the person [OK, rarely]....she --in the moment--got pleasure of some perverse kind, from causing hurt, which never reconciled with her opposite feelings of love for the target person she hurt. That always created more problems.
And good at it?! OMG. she was terrific at hiding her behaviors from others.
It was beyond mere "showtimers".

But it is still sick-headed behaviors.
People who do that, lack ability to apply their inner brakes on their behaviors reliably--they have some control, but it builds up in them like a pressure, and they blow up at one point or another.
Mom flat out said " I will drive you crazy", "I have a right to blow off steam at home; people are supposed to be safe blowing off steam at home where people understand them and are supposed to care for them", " I have a right to do anything at home"..
She was kinda right on that, but carried it too far--it is NEVER "ok" for any member to cause harm to others--discussing and debating is fine, but that requires rational thinking and ability to govern one's behaviors.
ANY who cannot do that, who devolve into rotten behaviors, are sick, and at some level, incapable of governing themselves----DOCTORS need to be aware of this, and include that in their determinations for whether a person is capable of handling their personal affairs.
But it is rare for that to be considered, unfortunately.

WE can determine to forgive the persons' behaviors from a safe distance, which helps us to off-load the feeling that we must keep trying--it's kinda a ceremony of helping ourselves let go of carrying that sick persons baggage.
If we cannot say or do something for ourselves, like "forgiving them, for they know not what they do", in order to cut the ties to that sick person's baggage, we end up carrying it around with us, allowing it to do more damage even if the sick person is no longer around us.

We HAVE to let it go; forgiving them from a safe distance, regardless whether the sickee repents, is one way to do that---in that case, it is for us, not the sick person--since that sickee cannot manage to process that in any healthy way.

Forgive them for they know not what they do: even when it appears they DO know, they are unable to rationally control themselves--key: "rational', because if they did, they would not keep repeating those behaviors.
They are sick.
Sick often seems like it is still functional, when it is not.
It can fool even professionals who are looking for it to evaluate.
It certainly fools family members who have similar traits ground into them over a lifetime.

What I am seeing lots of here is that an abusive parent does not know what they do. I have seen it on this thread and it seems to be related to forgiveness. I realize my mother is only .06 to 1% of the population but yes she does know what she's doing and she could stop. She enjoys doing it. She likes causing pain and heartache. Always has. She used to lie so well she could cover her tracks. Everyone thought she was so NICE! So here's my thought.. one, she CAN help it. She DOES know what she is doing because she can stop doing it to impress someone. As for forgiveness, here is what i was given by the Sisters..In the Bible, we are told to forgive as the Lord forgave us.(Colossians 3:13, Ephesians 4:32) The Lord forgives us when we repent. (Ezekiel 33:10-20, Isaiah 55:6-7, Jeremiah 6:16-30 & 26:3, Luke 13:3 & 5, Acts 3:19)
He does NOT forgive those who are 'stiff-necked' , refuse to repent, and intend to continue in their sinful ways, and he does not expect us to, either. By forgiving unremorseful evildoers, we are depriving them of the opportunity to repent and transform their lives.
In Luke 17:3, Jesus tells us very clearly that we are to forgive someone who sins against us IF he repents.
God does not want us to continue to be abused, in fact, we are told to shun evildoers ( Some examples are Psalm 37:9, Psalm 119:115, Matthew 18:17, Titus 3:10-11, 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
But if there is true repentance (see Helpful Definitions), the Lord does want us to forgive.
TAKE HEED TO YOURSELVES. IF YOUR BROTHER SINS AGAINST YOU, REBUKE HIM; AND IF HE REPENTS, FORGIVE HIM....LUKE 17:3

i just put those unforgivable people on my personal bus to hell. it makes frequent stops. the driver can load anyone on there you wish, just give me an address, it has handicapped access.

the wheels on the bus go round and round round and round round and round. . . *GRIN*

Lovestinks,, just from my perspective, I don't believe you have to overlook or rationalize behavior when considering forgiveness. I certainly haven't forgotten what my mother did and what my sister has not done or what she continues to do. Here again, IMHO, forgiveness can have different meanings to each of us. I base MY forgiving on "ceasing to demand punishment or restitution without any response on the part of the offender" or simply, I quit expecting an apology because hell would freeze over before I ever got one. Nor were actions going to change or minds be swayed. I just couldn't carry that load any longer. I couldn't make those two change and found my own path. They could stay on that road but i wanted better scenery. I still think about the wrongs, but I don't have all that anger which was literally killing my spirit and body. My mom didn't have dementia but it was clear she had huge issues and had them all of my life. Reading so many posts on here is opening my eyes about mom, and I honestly am seeing her in a different light. She was flat out hateful,now I see why and its helps.
Choosing to forgive is personal. What drives you to forgive or not is personal also. I hope things get better for you and your husband.

Gotcha. I believe Henry Ford said "History is more or less bunk." We may find that true of "religion." The heart and intentions of man are what counts. It is a challenge to sort it out for my seeker mentality:( Have a great day.

I read all the posts. If I overlook or "forgive" the choices they have made to hurt us, in the spirit of "Family". I will continue to be the one hurt. The pain it causes to think about their behavior is overwhelming. I waste so much time trying to counsel my husband and rationalize their behavior it's exhausting. We just try to forget and when they come to town it all floods back. The refusal to invite us or allow us to participate in family milestones is unforgivable, and it's killing my husband. "Forgiveness" it sounds good and it's an intelligent concept, but for us, it will only really work in theory...the hurt will never go away. The people we are "forgiving" will have to stop their hurtful behavior.

I didn't mean to call you out, Christina. What you said ... "Where else do concepts of righting wrongs come from? I doubt an existentialist would come up with the answers for resolving conflict," -- just reminded me that many people seem to take for granted that people they consider "good" or capable of "righting wrongs" or in my friend's term, "nice," must at least belong to the same religion they do. As you know, that is not so. The fact, many of the people who make the assumption also have friends from the whole range of religious beliefs -- they just might not know it! So I don't think it hurts to make that point once in a while. I am still friends with the gal who was shocked to find out I wasn't a Christian as she assumed, even though we no longer work together and live some distance apart. (Ain't email grand?)

Yea, I don't think I said those concepts "can only originate in the Bible."
I did say I am NOT exactly a fundamentalist Christian, however. I have 'nice' friends from every culture, religion, and race. I'm not sure why you called me out?

understanding or having knowledge of why they do what they do would be helpful but we are not usually given that data

concepts of right/wrong also come from philosophers and the soft sciences such as psycholgy...fred luskin for example, from stanford u wrote a book on it and i don't think there is religion in his approach...personally i did not care for his book;

I actually thought this was a good article only because I need a reminder about forgiveness from time to time. It can be so easy to get into a negative cycle of thinking 'I can't believe my brother did this, my sister did that', etc., especially when one is already stressed by the challenges of daily caregiving. Thoughts are things...negative ones not only are distracting but eventually wear us down emotionally and perhaps even physically. Why do this to myself?

Plus, forgiving someone for perceived slights (or worse) causes me to be able to open my mind to look at other possibilities besides the explanations I had come up with in my head for a behavior. For example, on a number of occasions I've often thought how my sibling must have done one thing or another because of a total lack of caring on her part and/or just pre-occupation with self ... only to later find out during a casual conversation with her about another topic, that she had a good reason for doing what she had done, which I simply had not known about at the time. This has both humbled me and improved my relationship with my sibling. And isn't that what we all want--or at least claim that we want?

ChristinaW, I have to laugh at the notion that ideas of right and wrong can only originate in the Bible. Reminds me of a good friend at work who asked me each year to a religious pageant that she enjoyed. After turning her down several years I finally explained, "Sally, I'm not a Christian. I'd love to go to an event with you, but not that particular one." She was amazed. "But, but, but ... " she sputtered, "you're so ... NICE!" LOL Indeed, hard as it is for some to accept, there are nice people and even people with a strong sense of right and wrong outside of as well as within any particular belief system.

HAM. *goes to fridge for Easter leftovers*


thanks a lot joanne.

p.s. i refuse to forgive the man who molested me, or most of the men who raped me. pretty sure i can't forgive the woman who birthed me. she only did it because she had no access to an abortionist.

Right, AlwaysMyDuty... Nobody should be forced to forgive if they are not ready, or simply unwilling, and boy, I certainly understand all of those reasons. There are great benefits to it though, and it provides a great release from a heavy burden. That's all I think most are trying to say here. ...and now it's time for me to go and enjoy some ham with Mom & family, even with the one family member who doesn't help. While it's difficult for me that she mostly only turns up for the happy holiday gatherings, at least our mother can still enjoy her company during those times. It's just sad that my sibling believes that helping is not much more than a hug and a kiss for mom on the way in, and on the way out. Have a nice day, all.

I was able to go to the link right away and didn't find it offensive, joanne,but then I'm a Christian. Rules are rules so I guess we gotta abide by them. I'm one of those live and let live types, and if I come across something I don't agree with,I just pass on by or if I strongly disagree, I comment. I still feel we have the right to voice our opinions in this country, and I will go to my grave with that mindset. I havent forgotten what freedom of speech means and I hope I can pepper in some tolerance along the way. I also was getting on board with religious leanings because so many others were. Why wouldn't I if I can forgive because God has forgiven me?
I do believe, Christina, you are correct. The Bible has and still does play a large part in human relationships. Oh no, am I going to get in trouble because I typed Bible?
Forgiving is such a personal decision. I truly understand how people can't, won't or never do forgive. I also see how others feel their load is lifted if they do. I definitely don't agree you "always" have to forgive. I was attracted to the title at first for the word "forgive" not "always". I agree with jeannegibbs, that word "always" sends up red flags everywhere.
I enjoy this forum because of the different ways each of us thinks about a topic.

Sorry for my part. I mentioned a verse from the "you know what."
I understand what Jeanne is explaining. Forgiveness is the subject of this thread. It is interesting that whether one likes or admits it, most subjects about human relationships are discussed in the "book." Where else do concepts of righting wrongs come from? I doubt an existentialist would come up with the answers for resolving conflict, but I think I'm getting a little too deep for a Sunday morning.
Have a wonderful "ham and egg" day, people! WhooHoo! xoxo

OK jeannegibbs, thanks. I didn't see anything about links in the forum rules. Maybe I missed it.

joanne1234, links are not allowed at all, except to .gov and.org sites and to elsewhere on this site. It would be a big burden for moderators to have to follow every link and make sure it wasn't to bigotry or pornography, etc. Most discussion boards have similar rules. So you weren't singled out. Links get deleted all the time -- to stores that sell items of interest to caregivers and articles about drugs or nursing homes, etc, that are .com sites.

Many (but certainly not all) discussion boards also have rules against certain subjects. This one has a rule against discussing religion. The particular post that was deleted must have crossed the lines from talking generally about the concept of forgiveness to specifically about religion, at least in the moderator's judgment. I doubt that it was anything personal.

Actually, the whole concept of forgiveness seems religious to me, so I don't understand why this article is included on this site. But then the entire article doesn't make much sense to be anyway, with or without religion.

I'm a little surprised that a forum moderator took it upon themselves to delete one of my posts in this thread, simply because it contained a link to a Christian perspective on forgiveness, which may be helpful to some people. In another post, a link I provided to a handful of Bible verses was edited out of that post as well... I see that in the "forum etiquette" rules, it states, and I quote, "Don't discuss controversial topics – such as religion or politics – that might anger other caregivers." What the moderator should know is that we were replying to a story about forgiveness, and several were starting to discuss the Christian perspective on forgiveness, and on what the Bible says about it. We were NOT discussing religion for the heck of it, or for the sake of discussing religion. It had to to with the subject matter of the story. Several were beginning to voice their opinions about the Bible and how Jesus forgives, etc. (their posts were not deleted by the way), and all I did was provide a couple of links to provide clarity on what the Bible actually says, to clear up a few points that others were making. I should also point out that some of us respectfully agreed to disagree with each other, without any trouble, and that was basically the end of it. Not sure why I was singled out, or why forum members can't provide links to aid in the discussion of the Christian viewpoint on forgiveness concerning a story ABOUT forgiveness, a viewpoint that may actually help some people... Guess I'm a little surprised by that, but whatever... It's not my website. :)

love ur enemy .. gotta love em all ...
happy easter ! xoxox

momhouseme: I know:( I will pray for your situation. Have faith. If she is not worthy, you will attain a relationship that is better for you. I understand. I have the same with my sister. She is a clone of mother. I feel for her sons.
Hope you are having a wonderful weekend.
Bless you, You never know when you will get a wonderful gift. xo

@Christina one cannot resume a relationship with another if they will not respond, communicate....

oops. Sorry. You are referring to the website article.

Hey Fitzgerald! Am I the "her" you refer to? What is your interpretation of forgiveness, and what Jesus "historically recorded" stated from the cross?
I am not exactly a fundamentalist Christian, so please contradict and argue with me.
I will be honest with you, and not at all dogmatic, as I believe we are all doing the best we can to interpret and understand God's word. Thank you:)

OK Fitzgerald, let's take the commentator out of it. Here are nothing but scriptures related to what the Bible says about forgiveness...
We'll have to agree to disagree, but I appreciate the input.

Joanne, this is not what the Bible says about forgiveness. It is what a commentator says about forgiveness; she chooses quotations to construe her own interpretation of God's word.
You are welcome to agree with her, of course. That is anyone's privilege.
There are other interpretations that are equally as valid, and held with equal conviction by thoughtful Christians.

This is true, ChristianaW (from your post further above). In my case, my sister would rather stay at home all day long and re-post Facebook Christian "quotebox" sayings, all the livelong day, rather than help her struggling siblings with her mother, just a short distance away, for almost a decade. Of course, she can never apply what those quoteboxes say to her own life. It's always for everyone else's life, and her messages and what she believes in is just all over the map, very much living in la-la land, rather than attempting to be a true Christian in the least. It's funny too, because she took our folks to the cleaners over the years for un-Godly sums of money, yet now that the shoe is on the other foot and it's her mother needing the help (not money-wise though), the darling daughter is mysteriously missing-in-action... VERY self-serving, and hypocritical to the point of being obnoxious... She is also holding grudges from way back, while pretending to be a tremendous Christian to her roughly 1000 Facebook friends. On the surface, you would swear that the Lord is blessing her hand over fist too, with money raining down from Heaven on her, every time she turns around... If anyone knows firsthand how HARD it is to forgive somebody like this, it is me, yet I do so, because it is the Christian thing to do, and I need to release that anger from me besides, but when all is said and done settling my mother's estate, I have no plans on having any kind of relationship with my sister. For my mental health, it is far better when I am not reminded of her abuse.

So, you are innocent and should not feel badly.You did your job. Can you clear the air with her? Write a letter? If you want a relationship with her, you can resume it:) xo

as someone said above, my sister will die not speaking to me. She is the one that cant forgive...she believes i took mom's money so she refuses to forgive me for something i didnt do..how interesting is that? She's not and has not spoken to me or mom in years for something that never occurred and that is frustrating when i am innocent...their solution at the time was that i immediately drive 500 miles to their home to put their names on moms account (sister and her husband)...I was carin for mom full tme and working full time and had missed so much work due to many of moms emergencies, doctors appts and so on. when i could not come down as instructed by them they hung up the phone and have never spoken to us again.