The board & care home is refusing to give a refund (prorated) of Mom's "monthly" rent when she died. Is this common practice...NO refunds?? To me it is elder financial abuse!!
Here's one for you. Our parents moved into an Erickson Living property (Ashby Ponds) first living for 2 years in an independent living apartment where they had to buy in at over $500K. Then, they were told (by the Erickson Living doctor, of course!) that they needed to move into the Assisted Living building. They moved out of the independent unit, but their money was not returned. Erickson said that money was held onto to tap into should they run out of money in their checking or investments. Now, due to extreme neglect and abuse, we're moving our mom into another assisted living facility. This Erickson property is telling us that our mom won't receive back the 90% of the independent unit's deposit (as per the contract) for up to 6 to 9 MONTHS!!! (Which is not spelled out in the contract!) This is ridiculous, excessive and basically financial extortion!!!
Koufax, My Aunt's contract signed by myself states that a refund is due "in 30 days" upon her death. The nursing facility has not responded to any requests for the over $10,000 that they owe the estate!
I am going through the same experience with a nursing facility in NC. The contract states that refund is "due within 30 days". It has now been about 4 months and the estate cannot get response from the nursing home!
Koufax - you are obviously in administration - you have the same tone of disgust. My mom experienced the same issue trying to get a refund and the contract stated she would be due one. The admin would not take calls or return calls. That was until I called and told the person answering the phone that I would be there in person to discuss the admin's refusual to talk to my mom (age 86). The refund check came in the mail the next day. Sick of the lies, and hateful tone. Go haunt another forum.
Koufax - for your information (which is in dire need) the contract stated the daily rate was payable in advance and refundable based on same criteria. So you need to know the facts before you make statements with such hate that are not factual. You obviously work on the administrative side whose job is to lie, avoid, and denigrate relatives. Shame on you!
Whatever the contract says is what will be considered your contract. Medicaid will not pay once empty. Private pay will be spelled out in contract. Ask business office for details. At worst, the facility can send a bill to the estate to be paid through probate.
Private pay patients in a nursing home are billed by the day, they stay a day they pay by the day. If they die during the month in which the month was pre-paid, their beneficiary should be entitled to a timely refund of the daily bed rate since they did not utilize the services or the facility for the days beyond death. Time to stop ripping off the elderly and their beneficiaries.
It wouldn't be so bad if they just charge you to the room is rented but they want 30 days and most of the time that bed to full the next day if I ran a business like that they'd shut me down it'd be against the law
With any type of Independent Living or some Assisted Living one has to realize that depending on the room's condition after a "tenant" vacates, the facility could need to re-paint and re-carpet and that takes time to get the tradespeople in to do the work.
I remember when my Dad wanted to move into Independent Living, he had to wait as a whole new kitchen was being installed, all new blinds, new flooring in the kitchen and full bath. He needed to put down "a hold deposit" for that room, which he was willing to do.
Now I realize in some nursing homes and/or long-care-facilities, the rooms are furnished. Thus when someone leaves, it's like a hotel, the bedding is changed, the drawers and closets are cleaned out, etc. which could take less than a couple of hours.
A nursing home has the right picture Advanced room charges but you know that that's going to be filled the next day or same day what's that about that should be against the law
Thank God some people have sense in this industry. Now, Why is there a witch hunt on our placement agency? We do good business but we don't work for free we have a business to run and we are fair with our homes each one signs a contract.
My mom was self-pay in a small nursing facility and died on the 24th of a particular month. That month was paid for. The nursing home fills it's beds VERY quickly. I've asked for a mitigation of expenses for the days in which they filled the bed. They said it "is like rent". I asked for a copy with my signature of the agreement that the daily fee is NOT refundable upon death and they cannot provide that copy to me, nor do I have that in all of our paperwork. Would they not have to mitigate the cost upon "re-renting" the space, similar to a landlord who would do the same. We live in Michigan.
You signed a contract that will state the rules and regs of the home. If you rent an apartment and you die do you think they are going to give a refund? Of course not. You do not get a refund for someone that dies. It should be in you agreement that you signed. Try reading it for once.
i had a board and care, I lost it bec of family asking for refunds. Always remember, caring for someone is not only a passion, but we are also giving our time, effort, physical exhaustion, mental exhaustion, even spiritually, all the days of our life are focus on them, while the family is gone with their everyday life/everyday business. We cannot answer for death, do you think we want it to happen especially for the business side. It is both of the family and the owner's loss. Demanding for refund is disrespectful of us who care for residents, we listen to their sad feelings, we given their needs to the last breath of life, we are there. Can you buy that? Even at night, we don't sleep when their awake. We were there.
have a face to face discussion with the manager. act normal and in control but bug your eyes out like the theatre shooter and make agitated upper body movements. everything they do is negotiable but you need to make them think your about half hinged, they may refund to get rid of you. or hire a local hells angel to visit with you. they are always for hire to provide needed intimidation. once a midwest town hired angels to knock on doors and collect delinquent property taxes. the angels were instructed to be kind and civil but theyre appearance alone produced record tax collection.
Koufax, your facts are right, but your attitude needs adjustment! On this website we don't mock people for asking dumb questions. We love and accept people on this website. Please be gentle with us.
I may have misled you to think that one thing is why I was mad. It wasn't. I was mad because of an accumulation of miscommunications that occurred during that time.
Although it may be standard operating procedure, most people will only have one or two experiences in their life with ALF's. I was in the midst of a family crises when we moved my dad in on Christmas Eve. Everything was new to me, my world was crashing.
Es0torok, When we are under stress and fearful and exhausted, who knows what we will say. Your Dad had JUST PASSED. Anyone with an ounce of humanity and compassion can understand how you must have felt. Poor koufax, I am sorry for your angst, as well. What's going on?
Why would you be mad? It is standard operation procedure of all facilities like this. Why would you get a refund? Do you know how many residents they turned down because they have no open beds while your dad was there? While they are in the business to care for the elderly it is also a business. Can't think of a single reason to be mad. And as for your comment about your dad's death and leaving him there. It was more then tacky to say the least and says a lot about you.
When I signed my dad's ALF contract, it specifically said there would be no refund in the event of a death, AND they would need a 30 day notice to vacate. I laughingly told them I should just leave him there to stink up the place for 30 days. (I was mad and exhausted.. sometimes we say things that are tacky and make no sense).
Is that a joke? They are running a business. If you lived at an apartment and you paid the rent on the first and died on the 3rd do you think they would give you a refund? No they would not. Just like if the resident died on the 30th and you didn't pay the rent. Would you volunteer to go ahead and pay it? Sounds like you wouldn't.
Whatever were the terms in the admissions contract is what they can do. For my mom, when she was in IL, the contract was 30 days advance notice and rent was due for a full 30 days whether she stayed there 30 days or only 2 days. Some places have it as 60 days notice. The only way it was waived was if the resident was moving within the overall corporation's facilities. They can charge this even if the resident passes away and that becomes a expense against the deceased estate. The contract is usually binding but you can try to ask to negotiate the amount or how it gets paid. Good luck on all that too. BUT you can hardball this if you are going to take mom's estate to probate.
If your mom's estate is going to probate, you can, if you have the sense of humor and ability to be very pragmatic (one person's pragmatic is another person witch), let the B&C home know that you or whomever is going to be executor of the estate will be presenting letters of Testamentary and opening probate sometime within the year. (Assuming your state does this - I've dealt with probate in TX and you have 4 years to open probate, which is a very very long time and really you can do alot of negotiating in 4 years). And that they should look for the legal notice in the local paper to place their bill in the queue for payment in probate court. They will likely be pissy about this and IF YOU DID NOT SIGN OFF on anything making you personally responsible for payment, then they cannot do anything but file for payment in probate. This is where your skills come in and you tell them you are willing to pay whatever.....50%, 30%, 20% of the bill as full payment and get a acceptance from them in writing that it is paid and full with no subsequent billing or accounting or 1099-C (a cancellation of debt which will involve taxes and you really don't want to have to deal with IRS issues after death, as it's messy).
If you or others, did not sign off on anything to be personally responsible, there is nothing they can do except to be a nag on it.
I remember when my Dad wanted to move into Independent Living, he had to wait as a whole new kitchen was being installed, all new blinds, new flooring in the kitchen and full bath. He needed to put down "a hold deposit" for that room, which he was willing to do.
Now I realize in some nursing homes and/or long-care-facilities, the rooms are furnished. Thus when someone leaves, it's like a hotel, the bedding is changed, the drawers and closets are cleaned out, etc. which could take less than a couple of hours.
We cannot answer for death, do you think we want it to happen especially for the business side. It is both of the family and the owner's loss. Demanding for refund is disrespectful of us who care for residents, we listen to their sad feelings, we given their needs to the last breath of life, we are there. Can you buy that? Even at night, we don't sleep when their awake. We were there.
Although it may be standard operating procedure, most people will only have one or two experiences in their life with ALF's. I was in the midst of a family crises when we moved my dad in on Christmas Eve. Everything was new to me, my world was crashing.
Poor koufax, I am sorry for your angst, as well. What's going on?
If your mom's estate is going to probate, you can, if you have the sense of humor and ability to be very pragmatic (one person's pragmatic is another person witch), let the B&C home know that you or whomever is going to be executor of the estate will be presenting letters of Testamentary and opening probate sometime within the year. (Assuming your state does this - I've dealt with probate in TX and you have 4 years to open probate, which is a very very long time and really you can do alot of negotiating in 4 years). And that they should look for the legal notice in the local paper to place their bill in the queue for payment in probate court. They will likely be pissy about this and IF YOU DID NOT SIGN OFF on anything making you personally responsible for payment, then they cannot do anything but file for payment in probate. This is where your skills come in and you tell them you are willing to pay whatever.....50%, 30%, 20% of the bill as full payment and get a acceptance from them in writing that it is paid and full with no subsequent billing or accounting or 1099-C (a cancellation of debt which will involve taxes and you really don't want to have to deal with IRS issues after death, as it's messy).
If you or others, did not sign off on anything to be personally responsible, there is nothing they can do except to be a nag on it.