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Since when is legally protecting your assets stealing?
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I don't like deceit but I do feel that money parents tuck away over the years that is intended for their children's future should be just that. I don't feel that any institution has the right to touch these monies. This money is hard earned, sacrafices made to have the extra etc. then some agency swoops in and makes claim to it. Totally unfair and should be ashame. Sorry just venting but it is my heartfelt opinion.
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sharynmarie your mom's money wasn't hidden. It is called a Division of Assets and is allowed in applying for Medicaid. This is so the community spouse is not left destitute.
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michdil~Thank you for clarifying that...I knew it was legal but I know some people felt that it was wrong. I have been told you can't do it that way today.
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All of this has reminded me of some of my siblings and their desire to not only have mom's money now- but also want a bigger share than other siblings later. They tell mom "give to the needy, not to the greedy". The "greedy" are the siblings who never asked the parents for money, paid their own way and saved for their retirement. The "needy" are the siblings who spent money as fast as they made it, asked mom and dad for handouts - not loans- and couldn't be bothered to save for their retirement.

A friend of mine said he always through the very definition of greedy was wanting something that belonged to someone else.

In the old story of the ant and the grasshopper, the ant is rewarded for his thriftiness. In this age of entitlement mentality- I wonder how that story goes now? Of course those were stories whose purpose was to teach morals.
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You can't hide assets from Medicare/Medicaid. They will find out about them...even stashed cash. Giving assets away is not protecting them. They beong to someone else after the give-away. Someone has to pay a gift tax or an inheritance tax.
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Unfortunately, judging if someone is qualified for Medicare has to be determine by the numbers. Do we really want the government judging the quality of our lives, such as Family A was frugal, worthy of assistance and keeping their assets vs Family B who squandered and is not worthy? You think the system is messed up now that would be a worse nightmare!

As for morality within the current system, I think assets should be protected for spouses and young children to be able to live. They should not be protected as inheritance for grown children. If parents are saving for a rainy day, then it is surely raining when we get old and need medical care. Maybe in the old days it was feasible to leave an inheritance, but then in the past, people on average didn't live into their 70s and WAY beyond.

My father was forced to retire at 58, with a plant shut down. He and my mother lived frugally off of a small pension, social security, and selling Avon, Tupperware, etc. Then they sold their modest house in their 80's, lived off the equity by living on a rotating schedule with us kids, but always paying their own way. Dad died at 93, after 2 months of government (actually state) financed care. Mom has nothing left and is living with a sister on her social security. They always wanted to leave us kids something and over the years tried to give us money, we all refused telling them to spend it on themselves. Mom still manages to save for her burial with Dad at the veterans' cemetery.
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tooyoung - you're right - due to advances in health care, it is now common for people to live into their 80's and 90's. Along with their advanced age, comes the problem of dementia and the need for more advanced care than can be provided at home. People that used to live into their late 60's or mid 70's weren't seeing as many of the problems that we're seeing today, and they weren't as big a drain on the health care system, the Medicare system and, quite frankly, family caregivers. It's blunt, but, I think, true.
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I used to ask this question in "estate planning" seminars. "Why do you think that the people of the State of Illinois should pay for my mother's nursing home care so that I can inherit her money? I never got a good answer! Or, why should your parents go on welfare when they have money?
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P.S. This is not about Medicare, it is about MEDICAID.
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I came from your Family A and have lived everything you mentioned and more. A huge treat for us was a Mc Donalds hamburger after church on Sunday and my parents did without everything to live but always paid their 10% tithe to church. Our clothes consisted of about 5 outfits (DRESSES) and play clothes about 3 sets of shorts and one pair of PJ's.

My father's job was seasonal so Mom had to stretch the money and make it last for 12 months even though he was only able to work about 8 months depending on the weather. There was no candy, cookies, potato chips, soda pop, only real substantial FOOD and it was limited. I was 5'6" tall at graduation and weighed 103 but I was healthy, just no junk food.

There was no college, they thought I would just marry.

My father grew up dirt poor as did my mother but they both worked hard their entire lives, VERY HARD! My father walked into the house one day at 56 and told my mother he was retiring and my mother almost fainted as they only had about $500 in their savings since Mom was only able to put away $2 a week. He could not understand how that could be until Mom reminded him that he only worked half a year and they had to make it last for a full year.

They sold a property they had bought with my relatives and took that money and he bought a piece of equipment and began working again. He made more money in those 3 years than he had ever made his entire working career. Then many things happened that made him have to stop and sell the equipment. So he and my mother went to work doing lawn jobs to make a little extra money to survive and continue to put money into their savings which had now grown due to his 3 years of employment with his own equipment and selling their property.

My parents have been frugal to a fault and many times I now have to go around the house and find items Mom is holding on to "to use again" and I toss them in the trash because her frugality has not left her even though her memory has.

So my answer to you is that we all have to answer for what we choose to do, but no I do not consider it to be immoral. I know many people are yelling as they read this but I don't care. I personally know many wealthy individuals who give "gifts" of money to their children yearly to pay down their wealth. I have seen doctors and their wives come in for medical care and they drive Mercedes and dress in the finest clothes and the women are wearing HUGE diamond rings and you ask them for their insurance cards and they pull out Medicare and Medicaid cards. As wealthy individuals they had attorneys and financial specialists who helped them with hiding their wealth, this all started with those who had the MOST money not those who had a little and were just trying to hold on to it for their kids, they did not have the same advice as the more affluent did.

I could go on and on about the waste in our government, the tax write offs for huge corporations, how we subsidize pharmaceutical companies and then pay the highest prices for the drugs we helped create, how our Senators and Congressmen have the best medical care and perks know to human kind and yet they are trying to put forth "Chained CPI" which will decrease the cost of living increases each year for every senior and will get progressively worse the older you get, how we pour billions of dollars into every country in the world to "HELP" them, yet we are drowning in debt, how our children's education is rated 57th in the world and I could just keep going. The bottom line is we care for our parents through horrible illnesses and we are not being paid for it, so we either need to pay ourselves to at least obtain some of the wealth our parents set aside for us or I guess you need to shelter it in any way you can.

I care for my parent at home as I did with my father, alone, although I have 3 siblings who raise a hand to do nothing. Would I shelter her wealth, yes indeed I would but there will be nothing left anyway. Mitt Romney sheltered his wealth, he moved it to an offshore account, if it was good for him and apparently legal, then why not everyone? He was a religious man and saw nothing immoral about what he did.
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This question is a tough one. I have a good friend who worked in geriatric social services for many years. Her motto is spend it now, she has seen too many "A" families who saved their money and wound up spending it all for their semi-private room in a substandard nursing home. The "B" family member lay in the other bed in the semi-private room with the same standard of care at tax payer expense.

There are no absolutes in these situations. The only way to make things fair and equal would be for government enforced regulations on how much every individual must save over the course of a lifetime for their potential long term care.

I don't think we need more government intervention into how we spend our money. I don't think anyone wants to be told how much of their income they are required to save over the course of a lifetime.

On the other hand are we going to let Granny from Family "B" die without care because she spent all of her money taking her kids to the beach and amusement parks? Does Granny from Family "A" gets to live because she was frugal?

In my opinion no easy answers or absolutes for this one.........
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I didn't save my money during my working years to leave for my children....I have no children. I want my savings to be there for ME. I don't want to pay 6 to 10 thou a month for a nursing home for my husband, and then I have to live off the government because I am broke. I am not getting 6 to 10 thou a month to take care of him....so I dont understand why THEY should get so much. The money I earned during the 10 years of marriage ( and what I saved before) should be there for me. If I could figure out a way to stash it, I would. Yes I have worked since I was 11 years old. I know people who suck off the government, some since they were in their 20s. It sickens me. Now that I am old and MIGHT need some help, I have to worry about what I EARNED, what I actually worked for. Not right.
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Greetings: As an advocate for the elderly, and as a fiscally conservative citizen, I am very passionate about this issue.

Hiding assets, by pulling cash out of the bank, sticking the cash under the mattress and not disclosing the hidden cash when applying for Medicaid paid nursing home care is illegal and immoral. There are many lawful and legal ways to shelter or protect assets under the Medicaid program, such as by setting up a trust, transferring assets to a spouse, spending assets on non-countable assets, etc.

Hiding assets to qualify for Medicaid is just like earning income and being paid "under the table" instead of reporting the income to the IRS which is illegal and immoral. However, setting up a trust is not "hiding" anything. The use of Trusts for Medicaid planning was approved in the 1993 Omnibus Legislation.

Our system for Medicaid paid nursing home care has been designed with the middle class in mind. As proof of this, someone who owns a home valued at $536,000, a new automobile regardless of its value, and a household full of nice furnishings, may qualify for Medicaid paid nursing home care. Thus, the Medicaid long term care program for nursing home care was designed to include the middle class and was not designed just for those individuals at the poverty level as the Medicaid health insurance program has been designed.

Medicaid planning is all about using the favorable provisions in Medicaid law to help informed elderly citizens obtain the lowest possible nursing home bill by qualifying for Medicaid when allowed by law. In West Virginia, there is no difference in the level of care that you receive in a nursing home whether you are paying $9,000 per month or whether you are receiving Medicaid paid nursing home care. Thus as a consumer, where is the benefit in paying $9,000 per month out of pocket for the same care provided by Medicaid?

Medicaid planning for the elderly, is much like tax planning for the average citizen. If you are wealthly, then an estate planning attorney will likely suggest that you set up a trust or multiple trusts to shelter all or a portion of your wealth from paying Federal Estate taxes at your death. Is it immoral to set up a trust to reduce the amount of Federal Estate taxes that a wealthy person may pay at their death when the Federal Estate tax allows them to do so? If the wealthy person sets up a trust to avoid or reduce Federal Estate taxes, doesn't he shift the burdens of operating our U.S. Government to other tax payers?

How about the business woman who sets up a Limited Liability Company as a means to reduce Federal Income taxes on her income and on the income of her business even though it is lawful for her to do so? Hasn't she shifted the burden of operating the U.S. Government to other tax payers?

How about those of us who itemize our mortgage interest and other deductions on our Federal Income tax return. We pay less in Federal Income taxes as a result, don't we? It's legal to do so. Isn't it immoral to do so since by paying less in Federal Income taxes we have shifting the costs of operation the U.S. Government to other taxpayers?

We as informed citizens don't walk up to the IRS office with a blank check to pay our annual income tax bill. Instead, we rely on CPAs and tax professionals to help us pay the least amount of income taxes that the law allows. That is the American way.

Why isn't Medicaid planning the American way? Discrimination. The issue here is that the elderly, who are still portrayed in Hollywood as worthless and foolish "old farts" are not valued in our society. In fact, one can argue that our country values the 11 million plus illegal immigrants who are being granted citizenship more than our country values our elderly who may need nursing home care because, a large majority of those immigrants will be able to qualify for, you guessed it, Medicaid. Thus, as Medicaid budgets continue to expand to serve all who qualify, I suspect that discrimination against our elderly will continue.

If buzz words like "immoral" continue to be attached to Medicaid planning to try to shame the elderly into not planning for nursing home care, it is likely, that this group of citizens, the ones who have defended our country selflessly, in WWII, Korea and Vietnam, the ones who have worked for wages for less each week, then many working poor receive for one hour's work today, will continue to avoid using the Medicaid law and benefits to their advantage, as the law was intended to do. The moral of the story here is, change the Medicaid laws. Take away all of the planning options that folks have under the law. Do not discriminate and degrade our best citizens into thinking they are doing something wrong when the law allows them to plan for Medicaid much like most of us plan for paying income taxes.

Once you have met someone, like my client, Jack, a WWII Veteran, who was bedridden and confined to his home, unwilling to enter a nursing home because he was afraid the state will take his home when he received Medicaid paid nursing home care, you will understand that Medicaid planning has nothing to do with "hiding" assets, but rather has everything to do with providing our elderly citizens with options and information so that they can receive Medicaid paid nursing home care while protecting or sheltering whatever assets that the law allows them to.

Brent
Elder law Attorney
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The more that I read and re-read these posts, the more I am inclined ( not sold) to start a Long-Term Care Policy , as I took care of my husband.....no problem, I loved every minute of it. But, there may not be anyone there for me. SO! Shall I call John Hancock? How 'bout looking into a long-term healthcare policy. It's expensive, but pales in comparison to the costs of nursing care. Or shall I wait until 2014 when Obamacare kicks in and see what it has to offer? No one knows yet.
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Does not LTC policies have time limit coverages? I will not get into politics, or religion, but I just got to say that Obamacare is the Nanny State personified. Hello, I live in a socialized medicine country and I won't go there.
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CPA here - I know many elderly or aging boomers don't really think about planning. There is a way of gifting amounts to your heirs annually (and file a Gift Tax return) so you can leave this earth with little left to your name. It is hard for many people because they "hear" so much about elder abuse, etc on TV. It is also "their/our money" we are giving away. Someone is always out to scam you or none of your children can be trusted (although that is who they truely trust). This helps moderate/middle income families with the "inheritance" issue. The truely wealthy, consult their tax and investment advisors and follow their advice). The other issue I see and also understand is the fiscally conservative family should not have to take care of the other family. I am 57 years old, attended public schools, am working for my paycheck everyday. The taxes I pay every week should provide for the general use and provide national security. not be a "deserved" careplan. This is a country of the greatest opportunities. But I saw my dad work extremely long/hard hours and conditions to leave my mother provided for. Many people don't appreciate that you plan for and do this - that you take care of yourself and count on what you earn. Yes there are people that truely cannot do that for themselves, but they should be the few. Most just want to do what, where, when they want. You sew what you reap.
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Medicare is a safety net for the poor, actually the very poor, the indigent.
Who would purposely want to make themselves indigent at close to end of life? JUST to get free stuff? Parents who are that generous should pass on assets earlier in life, not at end of life....some cases are just plain suspicious. And I hope for anyone who "hides" assets, that they really trust the "hider" to have their back if they ever need help.

The family with no nest egg will have to accept placement in the available medicare facility. In Miami some are REALLY bad.

The family with a nest egg will have options: care at home, hire caregivers, hire respite help for the spouse, fund outings to fight off loneliness and boredom,etc..

Money does not buy happiness but it funds options to deal with problems, your way.

End of life expenses can be very high, elder's money should be spent on betterig their care and quality of life for both spouses. Whatever is left over is the inheritance.

Money has no value, until you spend it, what better to spend it on than health care and quality of life.

Handicap ramp, delivered and installed in 12 hours $4600
24 hour care for one week $3024 (in addition to hospice)
Dad leaving the hospital to pass away peacefully in the comfort of his home, per his wishes - PRICELESS.
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My Aunt who has no children and has lived past 3 husbands developed dementia over the past 5 years.. She lived 14 hours away from me and although I talked with her on the phone everyday and made at least 2, 1 week trips every year except last year, I had no idea how bad she was. Her last husband was taken out of their home for neglect and was placed in a nursing home in November of 2011, We arrived in January 2012, to find her suffering from sever dementia. Although I had health Care Power of Attorney, I was told I could not force her to move back to my home with me and After 14 days of contacting every doctor and organization for the elderly I had to return to my Family, Job, and home. She continued to get worse and I returned againg in July and once again tried to get Doctors, Home health care and even Adult protective services to step in and help me get her moved back to my home where I could take care of her or place her in a nursing home.. Still another wasted trip. Finally, a week after I left Adult protective services received enough calls from the local police department and the neighbors due to her erratic behavior to have her picked up and committed against her will. By the time I was able to get there a week later and began going through her bills and legal affairs, It was too late.. I found out that in January Due to her Illness..she had stopped paying her supplemental insurance that she had had for 30 years. She cancelled her Life insurance again that she had paid on for over 30 years, She was 3 and 4 months behind on all of her bills and utilities and her lights were scheduled to be disconnected the day I arrived.. Her home since 1940 has a balance of 50,000.00 on it from a home equity line she took out 10 or 15 years ago to update and repair the home... I found out she had only been paying the interest for the past 4 years and hadn't paid anything in 4 months... She had No savings and only her social security check each month to cover her bills... Due to the time I had to take off to try and get her affairs in order I ended up loosing my JOB. She was placed in a nice nursing home near where she lived and I was advised not to move her. The nursing home now gets her entire social security check and because she cancelled her insurance she has no supplemental or long term insurance... I used every penny she had to pay up her past due bills, get attorney advice and, and move some of her personal effects out of her home... I was able to pay the utilities through this winter but could not afford to keep her house payment paid up. I have had it listed for sale since August of last year but because it had been neglected fro over 10 years it needs a lot of repairs and although it has been appraised at 185,000.00 I have only been offered 50,000.00 which is just enough to pay off the bank.. She has no life insurance and no savings... I am trying to sell her house for 75,000.00 just to have enough to pay her bills and provide for a decent funeral and burial however I was told that if I sell the house ALL MONEY HAS TO BNE TURNED OVER TO MEDICARE.... THIS IS JUST NOT RIGHT!!! SHE HAS WORKED AND SCRAPED AND SAVED ALL OF HER LIFE AND SHOULD AT LEAST BE ENTITLED TO A DECENT BURIAL.... SO YES IF "IF" SHE HAD HAD ANY MONEY WOULD I HAVE HIDDEN IT... YES!!! KNOWINFG WHAT I KNOW NOW... I HAVE BEGGED MEDICAD TO HELP ME AND IF I GO THROUGH AN ATTORNEY THEY WILL GET THE SURPLUS IF ANY SO WHAT DO I DO......
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Sorry I meant Medicaid...
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I think the real problem is a healthcare system that is so expensive it is impossible for average people to pay what insurance doesn't cover. Senior care centers can cost $4000 to 6000 a month. Few make or save that much money. So they may have enough for a short while, but it runs out. To see such outrageous prices and hard earned savings quickly vanish, it makes people angry and they feel the healthcare system has taken advantage of them. Can't get back or keep what they feel they deserve from the healthcare system, so might as well hide it from the government. Rather than trying to figure out how to do that we should all be forcing the government to fix the healthcare system, because from what I understand the new insurance stuff coming into effect next year is supposed to give more people access, but it is still going to be expensive. OK, so I'm fired up! I'll just put being a political activist on my "to do" list, right behind care-giving and add a few more hours to my day.
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Yes, tooyoung, I agree with you. The system is broken. The average joe blow can't afford $6K and more per month for 10-20 years for skilled care. It's staggering to even think about it. I think you do what YOU feel is right. It's a judgement call and not a judging call by others.
I told my kids long ago they more than likely would not be getting an inheritance. What I've scrimped and saved is for my elder care so they won't have to do it. They understand and have no desire for my money. If there is anything left, they can have it, but with the prices only getting higher, the chances are slim to none.
I pretty much was raised like Family A and that's how I raised my family. We had enough but not many frills. For me, taking trips to Disney Land which I couldn't have afforded without going into debt and spending money I did not have for beach walking adventures could never have been worth how proud of my kids I am today that they pay their own way, consciously make decisions to do the right things,work hard to never be in debt, don't expect anyone to carry their load, are compassionate for those who don't have what they have.
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I agree with Allison when she advised seniors to spend their money on their own health care. That is not "hiding" assets. However, setting up trusts so that the children can inherit and then filing for welfare (medicaid) certainly smacks of dishonesty (even where it is legal). I applaud you and your siblings for pooling the inheritance to care for dad but you are a very rare family. Your love for your parents is apparent and admirable but far more common are adult children who think they have a right to their parents assests (or worse, a right to obtain the assets before the parents are dead).
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I think poster Brent ElderlawyerWV posted this succinctly and the best.
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The family that has been spending their money has been contributing more taxes and contributing to job creation by buying more products. The family that scrimped and saved contributed much less taxes, and bought less which didn't help the economy. That's just my opinion.
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Bravo to Bret the Elder Law Attorney, you pretty much said it all!

I have to say that I have personally seen elderly people stand in line to get their medications at pharmacies and literally cry in front of everyone when they have to pull out their Medicaid card because they are ashamed and feel like everyone is judging them and a few have turned to explain to everyone that they worked hard their entire lives and now they find themselves in this predicament. It is so horribly sad that such a stigma has been put on them.
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I really like your answer, dear Ms.Ismiami. It is very thoughtful and well said. Thank you
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Did not read through all the comments and am not in a position to judge other peoples morality. However I throw this into the ring. Is the government moral?
Are they fiscally responsible in the way they handle taxpayer dollars? Were we asked before they spent all of our money bailing out big business? Why are we sending money to countries who are killing our troops. Why will there be no money to pay social security in the future? The answer is because it was used to pay down debt so the government could show a surplus. Morality has little to do with what goes on in today's world, but the law is the law and unfortunately we get punished if we don't obey it
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If it feels immoral..then it's immoral!
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